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#252862 - 01/07/09 07:09 PM OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
mikeathome1 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1208
Loc: Syracuse NY
Windows Vista Home Premium 64-bit with SP1 preloaded, Intel® Core™2 Quad Processor Q8200
8GB DDR2 memory
640GB Serial ATA II hard drive (7200 rpm)

I'm using xp on all my other computers. I use some open source software like open office and some free opensource video stuff (like to convert youtube to avi).
Some music powertracks pro, OMB some of the free utilities.

My question is about the Windows Vista Home Premium 64-bit, I have no idea about 64 bit. Do I need to know anything?
Will all of my old software still work? Most of it?
Will McAfee still work? (I get it free with my IS)
Thanks
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#252863 - 01/07/09 07:53 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
mikey_maestro Offline
Member

Registered: 07/12/07
Posts: 548
Loc: San Tan Valley, AZ
I bought a vista laptop last year. It was the worst thing i ever done. Xp is the only stable way to go if your gonna use windows. I decided to drink to kool-aid and bought a mac. I'm never going back

------------------
God Bless,
Mikey

www.mikeymaestro.com
www.myspace.com/kidconcert
www.balloonanimal.com
www.1000colorcards.com

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#252864 - 01/07/09 07:57 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Good move Mikey on the Mac

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#252865 - 01/07/09 08:21 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by mikey_maestro:
I bought a vista laptop last year. It was the worst thing i ever done. Xp is the only stable way to go if your gonna use windows. I decided to drink to kool-aid and bought a mac. I'm never going back



Just bought a Dell for the wife with 64 bit "Premium" Vista....Going to put XP on it. Network is not right, Print drivers are different causing remote printing issues. We have XP on three notebooks and the Studio Desktop. Unfortunately thats the PC on the router and print server. The Studio PC is on the LAN too but rarely connected.

Thumbs down.....If its not broke ....and all that XP SP2 is not broke. We didn't allow the the SP3 update either.

Vista is the Windows ME of 2000. All form no function. I would go Apple for the Studio PC if Sonar had a MAC version . But I built it and used the best possible components from New Egg and it was pretty inexpensive.


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 01-07-2009).]
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#252866 - 01/07/09 08:51 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Bluezplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2195
Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
Some of my audio software refused to work properly and in a few cases it wouldn't work at all on Vista. That's ok when you have stuff that is still being updated, but some of the apps I like best are no longer in production ( Sonicbytes Phrazor for example ).

Instead, three months or so ago, I bought a Sager laptop with xp home edition on it.

These are rather stripped down machines designed mainly for game players and audio buffs, and I have to say it works better ( for my needs.. mainly computer audio and softsynth apps ) than any computer I've owned, desktop or laptop. The price wasn't exhorbitant either.. I customized mine with 4 gb of ram, a better processor, and a faster hard drive.. and spent around $1100.00 usD. You can spend a lot more on these machines, but mainly the higher priced ones have larger screens and more powerful graphics cards and tools.

AJ
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#252867 - 01/07/09 09:18 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Jenkins Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/01
Posts: 37
Loc: NC, USA
One option you may consider. Go with Vista business with the downgrade rights to Windows XP. Specify Windows XP installed.

Your computer comes with Windows XP installed and you get the Vista business version if you need Vista in the future.

Thanks.

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#252868 - 01/07/09 09:30 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by Bluezplayer:
Some of my audio software refused to work properly and in a few cases it wouldn't work at all on Vista. That's ok when you have stuff that is still being updated, but some of the apps I like best are no longer in production ( Sonicbytes Phrazor for example ).

Instead, three months or so ago, I bought a Sager laptop with xp home edition on it.

These are rather stripped down machines designed mainly for game players and audio buffs, and I have to say it works better ( for my needs.. mainly computer audio and softsynth apps ) than any computer I've owned, desktop or laptop. The price wasn't exhorbitant either.. I customized mine with 4 gb of ram, a better processor, and a faster hard drive.. and spent around $1100.00 usD. You can spend a lot more on these machines, but mainly the higher priced ones have larger screens and more powerful graphics cards and tools.

AJ


Sager makes a great notebook. I bought a Dell 8600 at the time i was looking at the Sagers which then were around $2000 for the P4! I did not want a desktop chip in a notebook considering the fan I needed on my Desktop P4 LOL

I wish I could have remembered Sager when I bought the Dell 1705 Im using now. Prices have dropped. But I bought three Dell notebooks and all from the outlet refurb section.

I figured they had been gone through twice. Once in Malaysia where they are assembled, then again in Texas when they are returned and resold. DOUBLE the checkup!! So far my theory has worked out well and saved a few dollars.
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#252869 - 01/08/09 01:33 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14277
Loc: NW Florida
Amazing...! People here will spend a FORTUNE on the latest TOTL arrangers, but nickel and dime themselves when it comes to a computer.

Get a Mac. Pay the money. Get a computer that just WORKS. The apps work (no crippled bloatware, half baked demos and shareware), the OS works, the hardware works, no Geek Squad needed.

No popups, no spyware, no trojans, no viruses, no nothing.

You just payed $3500+ for an arranger. You could have got one for $800. The $800 one sort of works...
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#252870 - 01/08/09 01:54 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5393
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Avoid Vista as there are major compatibility problems with a lot of music software and drivers, unlikely older apps will work either.
64bit is the future; however we are in a crossover period at the moment, so no guarantees that everything you want to use will work.
XP Pro is the way to go.
Alternatively wait until 2010 when Windows 7 is released (The Vista replacement) as the reports from those that have tried early Beta versions say it really kicks ass.
Hope this helps

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#252871 - 01/08/09 02:49 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Anonymous
Unregistered


Mac.

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#252872 - 01/08/09 04:16 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
LindaFus Offline
Member

Registered: 10/28/00
Posts: 297
Loc: Ledyard, CT USA
I build PC's - its my life work.

I run Vista 64 bit on a massive home built system and it runs EVERYTHING! I have no problems with it at all. SP1 fixed most of the issues. I have not has one problem with it. Prior to SP1 Vista the above comments applies. Also, Vista needs high power video and lots of memory and the system you are talking about will work fine.

Having said that? My favorite little machine is my new Acer Aspire One netbook running XP!! It is not as powerful as my Desktop but geepers I use it alot. Now to get Vista on it!!

I am a huge gammer, so if Vista was an issue it would not be on my system at all!!

Quad core and 64bit OS is the way to go so you can add more than 3 gig of memory.

I also have a mac I use from time to time that I use for photo work.

Good luck with your purchase. GO VISTA!

-Linda
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Casio Privia PX-560 - Korg Micro Arranger - Casio MZ X500

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#252873 - 01/08/09 05:29 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
mikeathome1 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1208
Loc: Syracuse NY
thanks for the replies.
I guess the question I am trying to ask is do you need to buy different software for the 6t4 bit thing or does 32 bit software work?
The older I get the less time I want to spend learning how to do the same things over again.

What I'm looking for is to replace my xp media center computer that is having problems. The system I'm talking about has the built in tv card so I can use it as a personal video recorder to record TV.

Normally I wouldn't think about it but I saw a good price for what looks like a lot of machine.
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#252874 - 01/08/09 10:05 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14277
Loc: NW Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by LindaFus:
I build PC's - its my life work.


I make music. It's my life's work.

NOT learning every last detail about computers, just so I CAN make music on it...
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#252875 - 01/08/09 10:39 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
msutliff Offline
Member

Registered: 03/08/01
Posts: 640
Loc: Cottage Grove, MN, USA
Hey Mike,

If you plan on using all 8 Gigs of that memory you bought, you'll need a 64-bit OS. So if you do go back to XP, make sure it's the 64-bit flavor.

Goin' a little OT here:

I'm the Computer Support Director for the Libraries here at the U of MN.

The campus IT folks are responsible for the network here and they constantly scan all computers for vulnerabilities. They will deactivate any ethernet jack almost instantly if they detect problems. The last deactivations in our main Library happened on the iMacs used in our computer lab. All three had the Zlob infection (that's the one where you want to watch a video and you get prompted to download the proper codec). And we also see more root-kits being installed on Macs since they're UNIX-based at heart. Campus folks won't let us simply remove the root-kit...you HAVE to rebuild the computer and get it scanned before they put it back online. Too easy for the hackers to hide their tracks with UNIX.

Don't let somebody fool ya that Macs don't get dinged.

Back to the topic...we just installed 4 workstations with XP 64-bit SP3, Quad-cores, and 8 Gigs of memory in our Digital Scanning lab. The boxes scream! Haven't done much with Vista yet but it's coming.

-mike

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#252876 - 01/08/09 10:51 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
SemiLiveMusic Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 2206
Loc: Louisiana, USA
I am about to buy a desktop, probably today. Over the past year, I have been advised by numerous experts NOT to buy Vista under any circumstance. Not just one person said this, many have. Far too many problems that are just totally screwball. Use XP.

I am looking at buying a Dell desktop with XP installed and it has the Vista license if I want to use it later.

I am also told do NOT buy a computer with Vista installed, thinking that you can just wipe it out and put XP on it... they say it's sometimes impossible to totally clean up the drive.
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#252877 - 01/08/09 11:01 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
SemiLiveMusic Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 2206
Loc: Louisiana, USA
Mike, you said you bought...

XP 64-bit SP3, Quad-cores, and 8 Gigs of memory

My needs are for general business use. Word processor, spreadsheets, map scanning, map drawing, heavy internet use. I have the fastest DSL my telco offers.

I need speed. In my work, time is of the essence. I need a smoking machine, I hate waiting on the computer. What you bought above, would that help someone like me or is that unnecessary overkill?

Right now, I'm looking at a Dell with 4gb ram, 320 gb hd and Win XP for about $900 - $1100.
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#252878 - 01/08/09 11:16 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
I make music. It's my life's work.

NOT learning every last detail about computers, just so I CAN make music on it...


YOu an actually do both DIKI!! You can actually multi task and learn more. Being a MAC user I understand the magnitude of complexity the non proprietary component based computer may look. Many of us make or have made our living in music and still learned how to do other things.

I realize the The Mac UI is so easy to use, it’s actually insulting to a power user and yes Apple has always catered to people who prefer pictures over words. People who want the computer to be a "transparent" component which has it's benefits as long as long as everything is running as it should.

But learning the intricacies of the OS and hardware is a good thing. Really! Learning is ALWAYS a good thing. Yeah even at the "expense" of a few hours of "creating". It can save your hide as well.

It has been very comforting and handy over the years to know if ANY component fails I have the ability and knowledge get it up and running again in the time it takes to run down the street pick one up, install the readily available part and be up and running in less than an hour.Or build a computer to my exact specifications. I have never met a MAC user who could claim the same. They just swear their parts never fail are bullet proof, seemingly made of some special secret super silicon, magnetic material, "Macmega" phosphors,wafers in some secret Apple lab.

I actually enjoy not having to purchase new Recording software with each OS upgrade like some of my MAC brethren wailed about. I like having had more CHOICES in software packages as well. No doubt Windows has not been without it's problems. (Windows ME, now Vista) I am rolling back the only Vista computer we have to the rock solid XP.

In my case(and I am sure many who still use Windows based PCs) the benefits far outweighed the "issues" IF they took the time to learn how it operates. However the line is becoming blurred on the hardware side. Which is not a good thing for MAC and the myth of no virus issues.
Apple simply never had a large enough market share and were not as large a target, however that is changing and MACs are sharing more components and chips with traditional PCs and being targeted like Windows users. Its not like the OS is naturally immune. No OS is. It simply wasn't worth the effort for those who create the nasty little programs. I dare any MAC user to run on the net without anti-virus software nowadays, http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12537279/


Like many, I prefer to be my own manufacturer, repair tech, upgrade tech,network tech for my mission critical machines. That's the single biggest reason (second being cost) I chose non proprietary component based machines and "suffered" through a learning curve at the "expense" of some music creation. Yeah darn, I had to learn DOS while other's created music. But that's no longer an issue and it wasn't so bad to put some music "on hold" for the long term benefits. Nowadays I just have all the parts delivered and build it and buy Dell refurbs for the rest of the house.

As the hardware lines become more blurred and the the more "PC component" like and less proprietary MAC gets the more I am more inclined to give it a try. But not at an additional cost for the OS and only then if Cakewalk Sonar runs natively on it.

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 01-08-2009).]
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#252879 - 01/08/09 11:21 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
mikeathome1 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1208
Loc: Syracuse NY
Well, I haven't bought it yet I'm thinking about it, it's only 800 bucks and has the built in TV card so I can use it like a tivo but without the monthly fee.

"What I'm looking for is to replace my xp media center computer that is having problems. The system I'm talking about has the built in tv card so I can use it as a personal video recorder to record TV.


I'm kinda worried about the vista thing


Anbody have a tivo?
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#252880 - 01/08/09 11:21 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Kingfrog:
The Mac UI is so easy to use, it’s insulting to a power user.


You're a PC.

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#252881 - 01/08/09 02:08 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Riceroni9 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/15/04
Posts: 1298
Loc: TX, USA
Hold on Windows Washers:

Version 7 will be out soon and is purported by the Washington Windows Wizards to solve all the problems that Vista has either created or encountered.

Any Linux users here? Anybody satisfied with one of the Graphical Interfaces for Linux? I've tried several times but it seems to me the volunteer teams that dream up these variations always forget that most users are not programmers and don't want to jump through hoops to use their machines.

I own an older Mac and it's a nice platform but takes more practice and reading to get familiar with the system because I don't use it very often. (Kinda like flying a 747... you have to make a few practice landings and takeoffs to remain current... LOL! Macs are great for Art, Graphics and Music. I have owned an Amiga (before it was killed by Commodore) and wish to goodness it had survived. That Motorola Chip was so far ahead of it's time!

For music management these days, I use XP Home and am satisfied... but still not over being angry with Microsoft the Magnificent.
They want to control the world... for a price... and they want you to pay for upgrade after upgrade after upgrade. No thanks!

Dave Rice

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#252882 - 01/08/09 03:22 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14277
Loc: NW Florida
I WANT a computer that insults a power user!

My only goal is to make music. I'm a musician. I don't want to build my own arranger. I don't want to build my own piano. I don't want to make my speakers and assemble my own power amps.

I don't want to build a kit car to go to the gig.

Why would I want to build my own computer?

Every hour I spend not HAVING to learn to be an IT geek is an hour I can spend playing music. That's a deal I can't turn down...
_________________________
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#252883 - 01/08/09 04:30 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
[B]I WANT a computer that insults a power user!

B]

Then you should be very very happy and far less "defensive"..
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#252884 - 01/08/09 04:58 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14277
Loc: NW Florida
I thought the PC poster was the one being 'defensive'!

But thanks for informing me what I SHOULD be... I'm never sure until you tell me
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#252885 - 01/08/09 05:23 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
George Kaye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/24/99
Posts: 3305
Loc: Reseda, California USA
Today at the CES show, Microsoft announced that windows 7 will be available to the public for Beta testing on January 9 (tommorow)
This is a first for any microsoft OS.


------------------
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com
_________________________
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene (Closed after 51 years)
West Hills, California
(Retired 2021)

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#252886 - 01/08/09 06:13 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
BBBB Offline
Member

Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 617
You might want to consider a Intel Mac which would allow you to have the best of both worlds. You can partition the Mac hard drive and run Windows XP simultaneously via Paralells or VM Fusionware or simply reboot to either system via BOOTCAMP. I prefer the Bootcamp method as running OS Leopard and XP Pro simultaneously is slower for system. Just a thought! Cheers, Brian!

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#252887 - 01/08/09 06:18 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14277
Loc: NW Florida
Just remember... while you are running Windows, you are just as vulnerable to the Windows Woes as if you had a PC (which, in a way, you do!).
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#252888 - 01/08/09 08:07 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Musicman22 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 298
Loc: Boynton Beach, Fl.
I'm with Diki. Mac all the way. What a pleasure.

I used a PC for years. Problem after problem.
Can't tell you how many times I had to reformat.
I've had my Mac for almost 3 years, not one problem and
I do everything on it from word processing to sequencing and writing music.

I still use a PC laptop for my gigs, reluctantly. Lyrics, mp3's....that's it. I will eventually replace that too. $$



[This message has been edited by Musicman22 (edited 01-08-2009).]

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#252889 - 01/08/09 08:17 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
I thought the PC poster was the one being 'defensive'!

But thanks for informing me what I SHOULD be... I'm never sure until you tell me

I think your example and hyperbolic diatribe equating the assembling of a car to take you to your gigs with assembling 12 parts readily available needed to construct a working PC is a little defensive....yeah.

I can understand someone not wanting to learn how to do some things. Hell I never "learned" how to play the piano but can make a few dollars doing it with the help of the technology.

Nor am I "anti-Apple" I just did not find using a conventional PC the chore others did. Nor would I refer to anyone who knows how to put 12 parts together to make a computer a "geek" any more then I would call someone who plays a full orchestra with the left hand and some melody with the right a "musician". Hell.. even I can do that!!!
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#252890 - 01/08/09 08:24 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by mikeathome1:
thanks for the replies.
I guess the question I am trying to ask is do you need to buy different software for the 6t4 bit thing or does 32 bit software work?
The older I get the less time I want to spend learning how to do the same things over again.

What I'm looking for is to replace my xp media center computer that is having problems. The system I'm talking about has the built in tv card so I can use it as a personal video recorder to record TV.

Normally I wouldn't think about it but I saw a good for what looks like a lot of machine.


You can use 32bit SW on 64 bit systems. 64 bit software will work as well. It's transparent to the user. Vista premium is 64 bit. All software that runs on Windows XP runs fine. Drivers can be an issue but not because of the bit depth but more the OS. The memory thing is something you might want to look into though if you really need 8 gigs.

I don't know much about the latest Mac OS but I had friends who's sequencing/recording software would not run on a new version of the OS. They had to upgrade their SW if they wanted to use the new OS. Never ran into that one with Windows 98 to XP to Vista.


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 01-08-2009).]
_________________________
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Yamaha Motif XS8
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Casio PX-330
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#252891 - 01/09/09 01:56 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Musicman22:
I'm with Diki. Mac all the way. What a pleasure.


Ditto.

I don't know what's going on under the hood of my car, much less want to waste half my life tinkering with it. I just want to get in and drive to my destination.

That's what the Mac is all about. It's for people who just want to get stuff done.

[This message has been edited by Seamaster (edited 01-09-2009).]

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#252892 - 01/09/09 03:32 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14277
Loc: NW Florida
While I'm flattered at how much you key in on what I post, Kingfrog, I think that if you had read the entire thread, you MIGHT have noticed that it was the post by LindaFus that got me off on this tack...

And if putting twelve components together was all it took to get a Windows system up and running correctly (and staying running) there wouldn't be a Mac user in the world!.

Just for one minute, PRETEND that you had a computer that didn't need ANY work on it, didn't require you to research driver, dll and registry issues, and spend time on the internet investigating component compatibility...

How many more songs could you have made in the same time?

Sure, I COULD spend as much time as you have getting familiar enough to build my own PC. But I've got better things to do.

Like making music. Or gigging. Or working at the studio. Or washing my hair. Or watching TV. Or picking my nose

But thanks for the 'hyperbolic diatribe' bit. Hilarious! Thank God YOU don't suffer from that!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#252893 - 01/09/09 05:21 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
I'm using a laptop...a Toshiba Satellite Pro with Windows XP...my last computer was a Toshiba Satellite which I gave to a friend and which is still giving great service.

Never a problem with either...Toshiba make great laptops, and there are lots of interesting programs available...most of them free...I like free.

I prefer laptops for their portability, and I like using Windows for it's popularity...great for swapping programs.

Ian
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#252894 - 01/09/09 06:41 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
mikeathome1 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1208
Loc: Syracuse NY
Quote:
Originally posted by Kingfrog:
You can use 32bit SW on 64 bit systems. 64 bit software will work as well. It's transparent to the user. Vista premium is 64 bit. All software that runs on Windows XP runs fine. Drivers can be an issue but not because of the bit depth but more the OS. The memory thing is something you might want to look into though if you really need 8 gigs.


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 01-08-2009).]


Thanks for answering my original question Kingfrog!

Now if Diki would start his own "mine is bigger than yours" post I could stop getting all these notification emails.


Nigel Help how do I stop getting the emails!
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#252895 - 01/09/09 09:23 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
leeboy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 2580
Loc: Ocala, FL USA
IT is my business.
Music is a hobby.
Do not get Vista.
Get XP.
Do not get a Vista machine and hope to go back to XP, some new Vista loaded PC's have HW NOT supported with any XP drivers.

I would go Mac if I didn't have the many business applications that do not run on Mac.

Lee
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#252896 - 01/09/09 09:42 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:


1..And if putting twelve components together was all it took to get a Windows system up and running correctly (and staying running) there wouldn't be a Mac user in the world!.

2...Just for one minute, PRETEND that you had a computer that didn't need ANY work on it, didn't require you to research driver, dll and registry issues, and spend time on the internet investigating component compatibility...

How many more songs could you have made in the same time?

Sure, I COULD spend as much time as you have getting familiar enough to build my own PC. But I've got better things to do.

Like making music. Or gigging. Or working at the studio. Or washing my hair. Or watching TV. Or picking my nose

But thanks for the 'hyperbolic diatribe' bit. Hilarious! Thank God YOU don't suffer from that![/B]

I will answer your points.

Number 1....Yes if you knew anything about PCs you would know its pretty much as simple as that. 12 parts snapped or screwed in, turn on, load OS and you are off and running.I don't think MAC users knew that. MAC users don;t want to know things like that. You said it yourself!! But yes it's that simple.

Number 2... Maybe one verse or track. Seriously It takes about a couple hours (IF that) to build a computer from scratch. And maybe an hour at most to load the OS. So yeah three hours of "missed music" There goes my chance at a Grammy....

Even less time to repair a single part. Registry issues requiring hours of time are extremely rare and again there is free software to clean up the registry. In 20+ years I have never had to dig into the registry to hunt down a problem. That's Apple scare Myth. Again it shows your total lack of personal blindly accepting "MAC Myth"

Hyperbole is exaggeration. Your statement about assembling an Arranger or a car and equating that to building a PC is definitely hyperbole. I am speaking facts not hyperbole.

The bottom line is you are assuming too much and know little. No one's music will suffer because they took the time to learn about something else. Now if you just don;t want to which I said was true from the start. Mac users don;t want to learn. They want Easy. I could accept that. I AGREE!!

But to claim your "music" would "suffer" is clearly again Hyperbole. What if your MAC goes down. How many days would it take you out of the "mix". In my case hours. That's not hyperbole. That's fact.


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 01-09-2009).]
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#252897 - 01/09/09 09:47 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by leeboy:
IT is my business.
Music is a hobby.
Do not get Vista.
Get XP.
Do not get a Vista machine and hope to go back to XP, some new Vista loaded PC's have HW NOT supported with any XP drivers.

I would go Mac if I didn't have the many business applications that do not run on Mac.

Lee


Lee,
I am curious. As an IT guy what specific hardware have you found in Vista PCs that would not allow a rollback to XP? (Rollback meaning a clean format and install)

I'm rolling back a Dell and cannot imagine any hardware native to a Dell requiring Vista Drivers only. Dell offers the PCS both ways. with Upgrades of the OS only down the line.
MS has directions on their Website to do this very thing even if Vista was installed over XP which I would never do. A clean install would be far easier.
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/933168



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 01-09-2009).]
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#252898 - 01/09/09 10:14 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by mikeathome1:
Thanks for answering my original question Kingfrog!

Now if Diki would start his own "mine is bigger than yours" post I could stop getting all these notification emails.


Nigel Help how do I stop getting the emails!


You're Welcome. I have been dealing with APPLE/PC wars for years, Most musicians use Apple. Back in the day carrying around a Macintosh was far easier than a PC and the leaning curve was far less AND the MAC was better at many tasks. Thats said they still nearly crashed and burned. I believe the Ipod saved them and since they have de-prioritized their hardware they now have captured a whopping 10% of the PC market. Vista is helping as well.

The MAC is a fine machine.I said I would get one myself to try if not for the lack of software I use available. (IF I could repair it with common parts)

You have a strong machine, I installed the Q6660 processor as it was the "sweetspot" at the time. I do not have the 64 bit version of XP although I have the 64 bit version of Sonar. I'm standing pat for now to see what Windows 7 brings,,

Mac Pro is $2300 for a quad-core 2.8 GHz, 2 GB RAM, 320 GB hard drive, Radeon 2600XT, and a SuperDrive.
You have a much more powerful machine and
I have a much more powerful machine with two 320 SATA drives and 4 GB, overclocked for a total of $700. That's a savings of a Korg M3M!!!LOL

Don't fret DIKI. I have run into a lot of them in this world.

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 01-09-2009).]
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#252899 - 01/09/09 10:42 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14277
Loc: NW Florida
Look, Kingfrog, I'm sorry, but if it stopped with just building the damn PC, you'd have a really good point. But even on this thread there are fulltime IT people. What possible reason do they have to exist if, once you had snapped your twelve components together, that was it...?

The hyperbole, or exaggeration on this thread if you will, I'm afraid comes from those that want (all evidence to the contrary) to try and persuade us that using a PC is EASY, problem-free, and takes no more time than penning a simple ditty...

I don't know ANY Mac IT people. How many IT PC people do you know? Oh, and just for the record, a component fails on a Mac, it is easy to replace, as well... (they aren't set in epoxy, you know!).

But once again, I'm flattered by all the attention... there are several others on this thread articulating exactly the same thing as me. But you don't seem to have any inclination to address THEM (or even notice that mine is not a lone opinion). What's up, Froggy? No-one else wants to play your game?
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#252900 - 01/09/09 11:07 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Look, Kingfrog, I'm sorry, but if it stopped with just building the damn PC, you'd have a really good point. But even on this thread there are fulltime IT people. What possible reason do they have to exist if, once you had snapped your twelve components together, that was it...?

The hyperbole, or exaggeration on this thread if you will, I'm afraid comes from those that want (all evidence to the contrary) to try and persuade us that using a PC is EASY, problem-free, and takes no more time than penning a simple ditty...

I don't know ANY Mac IT people. How many IT PC people do you know? Oh, and just for the record, a component fails on a Mac, it is easy to replace, as well... (they aren't set in epoxy, you know!).

But once again, I'm flattered by all the attention... there are several others on this thread articulating exactly the same thing as me. But you don't seem to have any inclination to address THEM (or even notice that mine is not a lone opinion). What's up, Froggy? No-one else wants to play your game?


IT people deal primarily with NETWORKS.....There are not many MAC IT people because BUSINESSES don't generally use MACs. It's that simple.

Perhaps the question should be WHY business never caught on to APPLE since they both were available and Apple was supposed to be so much better!!

SEAMASTER said "I am a PC" ...I AM?!!!No need to reply.
Musicman22 claimed years of issues with PCS..no need to refute his personal experience.

But No one claimed they may as well build their cars and arrangers equate that to putting a PC together as a real hindrance to their music creating time!! LOL. Sometimes the most exxagerated claims have to be addressed. Your's feel into that category.

You never answered the OP's question. No one did except me. Does 32but SW run on 64 bit machines.....Simple. The thread immediatly got into Visa Sucks....MAC is great and I got sucked in. Vista does suck and MAC is great for 9% of the computer market right now.


One of the IT people he would said get a MAC
if software was available. I said as much myself but added the demand for non proprietary components and the ability to get it up and running if one of those components fail myself to avoid days of repair and inflated prices for such.


Yes A PC IS indeed easy to use, build and for the most part problem free. NewEgg.com and many other website like it are huge and started by selling components to "roll your own".

Windows Issues have been exaggerated mostly by MAC users. No virus on MAC etc...Who is going to wirte code for 9% of users when they can spend their time affecting 90%? Legit Software companies don;t even seek out the MAC market!!!!

People are free to buy APPLE! 90% of the market apparently does not feel Windows is terrible enough to do so and apparently they also must know the benefits have outweighed the failings since the PC was invented!!!
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#252901 - 01/09/09 11:29 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14277
Loc: NW Florida
I guess I'm using the IT designation wrongly... I simply mean people that work fulltime on solving PC issues, whether network, or OS related, software related, all the frustrating stuff that DOES send people screaming into the Apple camp (and DOESN'T send Apple users screaming into the PC camp! ).

Let's put it this way. There isn't ONE person on this thread claiming that problems with their Mac made them switch to a PC, where they have had a problem-free existence ever since. But there ARE some on this thread (and on others, in the past, too) that have done that from the PC.

There are MANY things I like to do other than make music. Sailing (but I wouldn't want to build a boat!), cooking (I don't grow my own food), playing poker (not well enough to make a living though )... but building my own computer, and troubleshooting it afterwards is not one of those. Could I save a bit of money? Sure. Do I want to invest the time? Not bloody likely!

You accuse me of spouting Mac Myths. But you have spouted the biggest whopper on this thread. That it is EASY to assemble, troubleshoot, and operate a PC trouble-free. If it were, there wouldn't be a Geek Squad in every Best Buy in the USA...
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#252902 - 01/09/09 12:27 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
I guess I'm using the IT designation wrongly... I simply mean people that work fulltime on solving PC issues, whether network, or OS related, software related, all the frustrating stuff that DOES send people screaming into the Apple camp (and DOESN'T send Apple users screaming into the PC camp! ).

Let's put it this way. There isn't ONE person on this thread claiming that problems with their Mac made them switch to a PC, where they have had a problem-free existence ever since. But there ARE some on this thread (and on others, in the past, too) that have done that from the PC.

There are MANY things I like to do other than make music. Sailing (but I wouldn't want to build a boat!), cooking (I don't grow my own food), playing poker (not well enough to make a living though )... but building my own computer, and troubleshooting it afterwards is not one of those. Could I save a bit of money? Sure. Do I want to invest the time? Not bloody likely!

You accuse me of spouting Mac Myths. But you have spouted the biggest whopper on this thread. That it is EASY to assemble, troubleshoot, and operate a PC trouble-free. If it were, there wouldn't be a Geek Squad in every Best Buy in the USA...


Diki 9% if the population 30 plus years later use APPLE!! Not a whole lot of screamers in 30 years. I guess there is no relevance to that. Major business chose MSOS when they could have either and still do.

People are scared,gullible and lazy. They just want to press a button and have it so. Apple was founded on that principle and still lives by it (see Ipod). They control their users with simplicity yet STILL they don't have a foot hold large enough for major software companies want to bother writing for or worse Apple has a grip on their code for more control.

Geek Squads are there for one reason. To make huge profits scaring gullible people into buying extended contracts convincing the PC is a scary and complicated machine. You are more than proof of that.

The biggest ripoff of the ignorant and scared easily American public in he past 20 years is the Extended Warranty.The profits from EWs alone paid for Circuit City's ENTIRE operating Margins in 2006 and half of Best Buys!!

Scary complicated PC....12 parts readily available assembled in an hour or so. You wonder how Michael Dell became what he became. He was putting these things together en mass in his garage. Now kids are realizing they can do what he did and building their own as well. Notebooks are the where the profit is now.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 01-09-2009).]
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#252903 - 01/09/09 12:42 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
I guess I'm using the IT designation wrongly... I simply mean people that work fulltime on solving PC issues, whether network, or OS related, software related, all the frustrating stuff that DOES send people screaming into the Apple camp (and DOESN'T send Apple users screaming into the PC camp! ). Let's put it this way. There isn't ONE person on this thread claiming that problems with their Mac made them switch to a PC, where they have had a problem-free existence ever since. But there ARE some on this thread (and on others, in the past, too) that have done that from the PC.


I switched in '98. Never looked back.

I use a top-of-the-line HP notebook running XP in my day job. And it's a crock compared to my Mac running OSX.

Even the merest suggestion than anyone fully familiar with both options would prefer Windows is frankly risible.

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#252904 - 01/09/09 12:44 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Kingfrog:
Notebooks are the where the profit is now.


"Market research figures released Wednesday have Apple's share of the North American market for notebooks, up from 6.6 percent to 10.6 percent in the second quarter of this year, compared to last year. Every other major notebook maker's market share was either flat or down, compared to the previous year, with market leaders Hewlett-Packard and Dell picking up just 0.3 percent and 0.2 percent, respectively, and Acer's share plunging 4.2 percent, including Gateway's totals."
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10044204-37.html

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#252905 - 01/09/09 02:20 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14277
Loc: NW Florida
Careful, Seamaster... don't incur the Wrath of Froggy...

You KNOW, of course, that anything you say, if he doesn't agree with it, is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG... (and the hell with anyone that doesn't accept his blinkered view).

All evidence to the contrary, of course.

The world's greatest arranger expert (that can't play) The world's best Mac expert (that doesn't have one) The definitive answer for EVERYTHING.

Yep, Froggy... No-one EVER goes to the Geek Squad with a problem with their PC... you are, as always, in all things, eternally correct

Now go and insult someone ELSE'S intelligence for a while, eh? I'm getting tired of you ganging up on ME... There's GOT to be someone else here that doesn't agree in lockstep with everything you say, surely?
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#252906 - 01/09/09 03:19 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Careful, Seamaster... don't incur the Wrath of Froggy...

You KNOW, of course, that anything you say, if he doesn't agree with it, is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG... (and the hell with anyone that doesn't accept his blinkered view).

All evidence to the contrary, of course.

The world's greatest arranger expert (that can't play) The world's best Mac expert (that doesn't have one) The definitive answer for EVERYTHING.

Yep, Froggy... No-one EVER goes to the Geek Squad with a problem with their PC... you are, as always, in all things, eternally correct

Now go and insult someone ELSE'S intelligence for a while, eh? I'm getting tired of you ganging up on ME... There's GOT to be someone else here that doesn't agree in lockstep with everything you say, surely?

If there are other who don't agree, they are awfully silent. Uh Dude... Apple took 30 years to reach 10%. W O W? AM I supposed to say W O W ???

This is a mandate for Apple use all over the US world? Now that would be an insult to anyone's intellect...even a reasonable MAC user.

I am not a MAC expert. I only know Apple took more than 30 years to gain 10.6% of the PC population. OK.......W O W!!!


Perhaps here is the reason for the whopping 1% increase (of course DESPITE Vista's ugly release!!!!)

"Intel Inside"

Apple Kool-Aid is tasting more like Washington State Apples every year.


Perhaps the fact that MAC is becoming more like the other 90% of PCs though and even discarding SCSI Drives in favor of SATA and using INTEL CHIPS has garnered that precious 1%!!! My my my.....Seems people might even run Leopard on any PC.. if only they had the choice of software Windows users have enjoyed, maybe they would eek out another 1%. Don't hold your breath,

Arranger expert...ME? No that would be you!
You are the guy who constantly finds yourself
Trashing other brands and making it personal and incessantly defending the G70 . I chose Yamaha simply because it is better supported. Period. I could care less who plays what.

Don;t confuse humility with ability DIKI,
by playing the "I can't play the piano therefore I should have no opinion card" with me just because I am far more humble than you are in that regard. I've posted my work. Even stuff I an not proud of. I've nothing to hide. Some even liked it. Imagine that? An no Arranger was used! Yikes.

You are playing an ARRANGER keyboard for your supper. What if people thought a real player should stand on their pianist skills alone. No frills. Nothing but piano and or vocal. Now THAT would impress even you. ....perhaps not. But I know people who have done and still do exactly that and make a very very good living. Pianoworld is full of them as are the local theaters, bars and restaurants.
Haven't sold an Arranger keyboard to any of them. They don't need it.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 01-09-2009).]
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#252907 - 01/09/09 03:36 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
BBBB Offline
Member

Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 617
Being a Gemini, I guess I have 2 minds. Mac is all about user interface AND more importantly hardware that is made to work with it. Mac is a Hardware company primarily. PC is all about trying to be all things to all people. Microsoft is a software company and they try to make Software that works with all kinds of different hardware. I still have my PC with a 20 inch SONY flat panel,ATI RADEON graphics card built in TV TUNER, Creative Audigy sound card internal and CUBASE. But I find I only use it when I have to. If I can find a MAC application that does what I need to do I go with that. I use Logic Pro and Garageband not CUBase now. I plug my E60 USB into my Macbook Pro. I no longer use the Audigy but my APOGEE DUET is fantastic for recording directly into my MACBOOK. As others have said, they would have gone with a Mac if their existing software was compatible and I certainly respect that. VIsta was a disaster for some people and not others but a lot of that was do to hardware drivers and security. Networking was also a nightmare for some. I just got an Airport Extreme wireless router and it was so easy to install even working with the PC. For video and photo applications I dont believe you can beat the MAC. Having said that APPLE can be pretty arrogant sometimes ie: the ad campaigns but any dealings I have had with my local Apple store have been great. As far as businesses go take a look at what the creative people are using in film and music. Personally, I don't have a problem using both and taking the best of each. Do your research and pick what' right for you. Cheers Brian!

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#252908 - 01/09/09 04:13 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14277
Loc: NW Florida
Or just do what Kingfrog says... that MUST be the way to go...

Look, Kingfrog, this is all (on BOTH our parts) getting a bit silly. You can ignore the comments about frustrated PC users who switched to a Mac and are now happy campers all you want. It doesn't make it any less true.

And you can claim that the Geek Squad only exists to put fear into ignorant shoppers (ignorant, despite buying a PC, though!) all you want. Doesn't make it a FACT. Ridiculous claims like this don't really make some of your better points as clear. You are beginning (well, not exactly beginning!) to sound like Ian, about all things Yamaha. Completely partisan, and blithely unaware of (or deliberately blind to) actual posters' actual experience that doesn't conform to your world view...

Mac only has 10% market share? No surprise, really... 10% sounds like the correct figure. Only 10% of any population has any brains The rest act like sheep.

Baaaaa!
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#252909 - 01/09/09 04:19 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Kingfrog:
Apple took 30 years to reach 10%. W O W? AM I supposed to say W O W ???


And Macdonalds sells more meals than the Savoy Grill.

Your point, son?

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#252910 - 01/09/09 04:38 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by Seamaster:
And Macdonalds sells more meals than the Savoy Grill.

Your point, son?



WOW Great analogy and quite logical....

Yeah I get it now......The reason MAC has not cracked more than 10% of the PC user population is because they are "Elite".....20X the cost... even though now the meat between the buns is the same....Yeah thats a great reason to buy a Mac..The BUNS!!!!!!.

Thanks for that precious jewel of logic......Dad.




[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 01-09-2009).]
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#252911 - 01/09/09 04:57 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
I always figured this place was just like a big dysfunctional family...
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#252912 - 01/09/09 11:34 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14277
Loc: NW Florida
Next time you tell the wife you are taking her to Ruth Chris's, or somewhere like that, take her to Burger King instead.

See if SHE thinks it's all the same It's just dead cow, after all...
_________________________
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#252913 - 01/09/09 11:51 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Next time you tell the wife you are taking her to Ruth Chris's, or somewhere like that, take her to Burger King instead.

See if SHE thinks it's all the same It's just dead cow, after all...


Another comparison between meat and Apples....Get over it already. You are among the "Elite"....enjoy your secret pleasure.
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#252914 - 01/10/09 12:41 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14277
Loc: NW Florida
Another side step of an obvious fact...

Get over it, Dad!
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#252915 - 01/10/09 01:43 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Another side step of an obvious fact...

Get over it, Dad!


.. Hmmmmmmmm.....10% on one side 90% on the other for 30 years and counting... the minimizing of that fact pretty much is the real side stepping of the obvious....But hey at 1% a year there is a chance Mac will catch up....around 3010. Watch the market Follow the money....Short Apple
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#252916 - 01/10/09 07:56 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
kalimero Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/07
Posts: 90
Loc: Dubrovnik, Croatia
I wonder why almost every topic on this part of the forum have to turn into 'mine is bigger' contest. There is no use debating which OS is better to use, as there is no use debating which arranger is the best on the market. Windows Vista might work perfect for some users, but majority of them are not satisfied with it. Microsoft realized that, and that's the reason for prolonging Windows XP sale and support, as well as hurrying up with the development of Windows 7. As for the Windows XP and OSX, XP was always considered to be unstable and vulnerable OS (although with vast software support), while OSX was synonym for problem-free easy-to-use OS (although it was running on quite expensive hardware, and had much fewer applications for use). All this of course doesn't mean that if You choose XP you will have constant problems with you PC, or if You choose OSX that you will not have problems using your hardware and software. In order to find what's best for You, You have to try all the possibilities by yourself and then make decision, because what's best for me, might not be good for you. [This message has been edited by kalimero (edited 01-10-2009).]

[This message has been edited by kalimero (edited 01-10-2009).]

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#252917 - 01/10/09 08:09 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
big741.1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/08
Posts: 167
Loc: Edmonton,Canada
When I worked in IT, the most common thing I heard from Mac users (aside from arrogant remarks and hubris) was, "Cool! Is there a version for my MAC?". The answer was usually "no". Hence Intel chips and bootcamp for the MAC...
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#252918 - 01/10/09 08:59 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
hammer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2403
Loc: Texas
Wow, some guy asks for advice for a computer purchase and it turns into a "I know more than you" thread. I have been reading the thread for a few days and could not resist jumping in so here goes.

Seems to me there are a few folks here not old enough nor experienced enough to know the history or the benefits of the PC or the MAC systems. It is generally accepted that Steve Jobs and company far outshined the Bill Gates camp in pure improvements in the technology end of the systems. The real problem stemmed from the fact that Jobs decided to keep everything about the Apple products a deep guarded secret while Gates was smart enough to have a somewhat "open" system which allowed software developers a chance to write useful products for the PCs while the Apple guys went wanting. It also is known that Zerox developed the popular user interface we now know as the windows system which Gates literally "stole" from Zerox and used in his first edition of the Windows operating system.

I can remember when I was teaching technology classes on the old original Apple systems, the Radio Shack TRS-80, the Amiga systems, the the first IBM systems. Yes, the place I taught decided to use them all. We even built up a few z-80 systems from scratch and they worked pretty well also.

The corporate world jumped from the old IBM mainframe systems which used the old green screen moniters to the IBM PC systems on the user end because IBM had the reputation of being the best in the business. Gates licensed his OS to IBM and the rest is history as they say. If Steve Jobs had been that smart we would be entrenched in a MAC world today.

The main problem with the PC world has been created by those folks who have seen fit to cause Microsoft as much trouble as possible and create all the virus software. This also has a history which dates back to how Bill Gates and company ram rodded their way into a lot of sectors. On his way to the top his company created a ton of microsoft haters - each one for a different reason.

The very same thing has happened in the network world. For a long time I was a Novell Certified Network Instructor teaching very expensive high end network classes to the IT guys from the corporate world. Novell's OS is outstanding but they could not match the marketing dollars of microsoft and slowly we saw NT, then other Microsoft products replace many of the Novell networks.

In today's world I doubt it makes much difference which system a user selects. There is great software for each system. I can't speak for the software used for music production because I don't use those products - but I do know just about anything else you can do on one system can be done on the other. Seems to me it is rather like the old "Ford vs Chevy" arguments that once prevailed.

Meanwhile, if you really want to help Mike with his question why not take a step back and stop all the uninformed, opinioned, crap and try to help the man. If you like your system - tell him why. If you hate your system - tell him why. If you have not actually used each system than contain your comments to the system you really have some experience with.

Well - all this is just my opinion too.

Hammer

Hammer

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#252919 - 01/10/09 09:32 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by hammer:
Wow, some guy asks for advice for a computer purchase and it turns into a "I know more than you" thread. I have been reading the thread for a few days and could not resist jumping in so here goes.

Seems to me there are a few folks here not old enough nor experienced enough to know the history or the benefits of the PC or the MAC systems. It is generally accepted that Steve Jobs and company far outshined the Bill Gates camp in pure improvements in the technology end of the systems. The real problem stemmed from the fact that Jobs decided to keep everything about the Apple products a deep guarded secret while Gates was smart enough to have a somewhat "open" system which allowed software developers a chance to write useful products for the PCs while the Apple guys went wanting. It also is known that Zerox developed the popular user interface we now know as the windows system which Gates literally "stole" from Zerox and used in his first edition of the Windows operating system.

I can remember when I was teaching technology classes on the old original Apple systems, the Radio Shack TRS-80, the Amiga systems, the the first IBM systems. Yes, the place I taught decided to use them all. We even built up a few z-80 systems from scratch and they worked pretty well also.

The corporate world jumped from the old IBM mainframe systems which used the old green screen moniters to the IBM PC systems on the user end because IBM had the reputation of being the best in the business. Gates licensed his OS to IBM and the rest is history as they say. If Steve Jobs had been that smart we would be entrenched in a MAC world today.

The main problem with the PC world has been created by those folks who have seen fit to cause Microsoft as much trouble as possible and create all the virus software. This also has a history which dates back to how Bill Gates and company ram rodded their way into a lot of sectors. On his way to the top his company created a ton of microsoft haters - each one for a different reason.

The very same thing has happened in the network world. For a long time I was a Novell Certified Network Instructor teaching very expensive high end network classes to the IT guys from the corporate world. Novell's OS is outstanding but they could not match the marketing dollars of microsoft and slowly we saw NT, then other Microsoft products replace many of the Novell networks.

In today's world I doubt it makes much difference which system a user selects. There is great software for each system. I can't speak for the software used for music production because I don't use those products - but I do know just about anything else you can do on one system can be done on the other. Seems to me it is rather like the old "Ford vs Chevy" arguments that once prevailed.

Meanwhile, if you really want to help Mike with his question why not take a step back and stop all the uninformed, opinioned, crap and try to help the man. If you like your system - tell him why. If you hate your system - tell him why. If you have not actually used each system than contain your comments to the system you really have some experience with.

Well - all this is just my opinion too.

Hammer

Hammer


A slight correction. PARC (Xerox development center invented the GUI indeed) It wasn't Gates that toured PARC it was Jobs. Steve jobs "stole" the idea and ran with it because Xerox was stuck in a copier paradigm, Xerox also invented the Fax ("Telecopier", and desktop publishing.


Apple actually had the nerve to threaten to sue MS when Windows began using the GUI. Xerox became very very interested in that lawsuit for obvious reasons. Needless to say Apple quietly backed off.

I totally agree Jobs dropped the ball and was a little too "visionary" believing by giving Apples away to schools, Kids would grow up and be Apple users. Apple should have allowed clones. The PC landscape would have been much different today. Apple was brought back from the dead a few times. Back in the day it was common advice to find your software first Then decide on the hardware. No problem finding software for DOS and competitors. Apple was proprietary and they had their users over a barrel. Today they charge 3X the price for the same components in a pretty package. The components are no better then then what are offered in PCs Intel doesn't make special super chips for Apple, nor does Nvidia,ATI,Seagate,and the rest of the common components now found in both machines. I know of people who are building their own PCs an loading Leopard and it's working although against the EULA of Apple..

The more the hardware becomes the same the more vulnerable Apple will be to malicious attacks. I think they should just sell the OS and allow any one to install it on any PC.
Sell the "elite" hardware to the few hardcore "Apple community" members. Then more software companies will write for it and if it is a better OS it will beat the tar out Microsoft in sales and use.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 01-10-2009).]
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#252920 - 01/10/09 09:44 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Mike, I think when you reach a certain age, comfort level and familiarity play a big role in our buying decisions, especially when said purchase involves a potentially large and tedious learning curve. I have about 5-6 active computers in my home at present. All are PC's running XP, Vista 32, and Vista 64. ALL have minor problems and require constant maintenance and upgrades. Still, I have not purchased a Mac. In fact, having spent an entire career in the computer industry, including mainframes, minis, large networks which included both PC's and Macs, etc., etc., I have never owned, used, or learned, a Mac. No real reason other than just being a creature of habit. I'm sorry that I didn't.

I have not had any 'Vista' problems specifically related to the 64 bit version. On the other hand, I have different applications on the different versions. All my music apps are on XP or Vista 32. None on Vista 64. Most of the apps I have loaded onto Vista 64, even those without the V64 approval, have run without problems. Most of the the problems I have experienced with all versions of Windows have more to do with 'infections' of one sort or another (malware, spyware, viruses, etc.) rather than any intrinsic defect in the OS (although being vulnerable to viruses, etc. could be construed as a defect). In my gut, I suspect that Mac has the better OS, but then again, it depends on how you define 'better'.

My advice; work more gigs and buy both. Hope that helps .

chas
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#252921 - 01/10/09 11:51 AM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
kalimero Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/07
Posts: 90
Loc: Dubrovnik, Croatia
Hammer, I do agree with most of the things you wrote (especially the last part), but there are some things you said I can't agree with.

As Kingfrog said, it was Steve Jobs who 'stole' GUI concept from Xerox, and implemented it in Lisa, overly-expensive (even for the Apple standards) predecessor of Macintosh line. Later, Gates 'took' the concept and implemented it (although rather poorly) in Windows (which was merely GUI extension of MS-DOS operating system).

Also, it wasn't Gates who was 'smart enough to create "somewhat open system', it was IBM, and it wasn't about the software, but about hardware. IBM created PC to be an open system, so that the third-party companies can create hardware add-ons, device drivers, and programs. They had BIOS under copy-protection, but some firms like Phoenix and Award 'circumvent' the copyright by creating code that would accept same input and produce same output as original BIOS, while having totally different internal code.

Since it was an open-system other companies had access to schematic of PC internals, and started to produce 'clones'. These clones where rather low quality, compared to the original, but they where much cheaper (although still quite expensive for today's measures) and these facts combined with market competition and far-east Asian factories that produced cheap components, made possible so low price of PC as we have for the last two decades.

Apple got the 'price problem' because from the start it used specific hardware produced with far less volume then PC components, therefore there was no price-drop from market competition or high volumes of production, and prices where stellar high.

After 'switching' to Intel platform, prices become much more affordable, although still higher then PC-prices, because they use higher quality components, and of course charge their 'brand'. But if, for example, anyone tries to assemble PC equivalent to Mac Pro and use the best available components, the price difference would melt down to 10% or so).

Finally, it's almost childish to say that 'Bill Gates haters created virus software to harm Microsoft', and that this is the main problem for the PC world. There are viruses also for OSX and Linux, there are even viruses for mobile phone operating systems.
It's not the viruses that cause majority of problem for PC-s is instability of operating system that happens after several installations/uninstallations of software, and after using poorly created applications, combined with ever-growing OS with lot's of open-doors for malicious programmers. All this 'thanks' to Registry concept.

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#252922 - 01/10/09 12:38 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5393
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Windows 7 Beta now available for download from Microsoft.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7

Regards

Bill
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#252923 - 01/10/09 01:20 PM Re: OT: thinking of a new computer need advice
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14277
Loc: NW Florida
Kalimero... finally an adult look at this issue..!

Basically, a PC assumes you are an idiot, and goes ahead and installs components, code, and stuff like that without you ever being aware of the fact. This is great in a perfect world. But we don't live in that one (except for Kingfrog )...

We live in the world where people exploit those supposedly helpful hooks for all kinds of malicious purposes. It's bad enough when programs allow hackers to trick you into revealing sensitive information, but that's a USER issue. And yes, there are dumb Mac users as well as dumb PC users. Phishing strikes the Mac community as easily as the PC world. But the Mac OS WILL NOT install any code without asking you first.

After that, it is up to you... But any system that does YOUR job for you in the background, without you even being aware of it is an accident (or assassination!) waiting to happen...

BTW, I'm still chuckling over Froggy's gloating over the percentages of Mac/PC users, all the while using an arranger that WAY less than 10% of the entire arranger community uses. I guess, when it makes sense to HIM, using a product that is used by few and costs a lot more than most isn't the boneheaded decision he thinks using a Mac is

Because choosing something that just WORKS, although it might cost a lot more, doesn't make HIM "Elite' No sir... that's just good common sense. It is merely everyone ELSE that uses that thinking that is an idiot, isn't it?

Let's just put this to bed... When droves of Mac users migrate over to a PC because the damn things are unreliable, and give them constant problems, and the PC's are always trouble-free (comparatively), and have no need for Geek Squads, let's talk again

I've enjoyed our time together, Grandpa Froggy
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