Not bad...Companies that carry too much debt cannot weather a downturn. Happens in every down business cycle.

100's of banks failures, 13% inflation rate,19% interest rates, 10% unemployment, collapse of the US steel industry all in the late 70's We are not even close to the 70's Give Obama two years we will reach those lofty heights....

Ah yes, blame Obama... Because the Republicans did SUCH a good job over the last eight years deregulating as much as possible and giving big tax cuts to the rich that our economy was never stronger... (OK, the rich's economy, but who else counts? )

Absolutely amazing how in less than a month, Obama has put this nation's economy down the toilet... A new record.

It never fails to amaze me how the Republicans can pretend to be fiscally conservative after the last eight years.

The United States of Amnesia...

This will be my only post on this thread (he said hopefully ) ...
But, as bad as the Republican administration has been, if we are OBJECTIVE, we will admit that this down turn started with the Clinton administration and really hit the skids the past two years with a Democrat Congress ...

I only hope it gets turned around in my lifetime, no matter who is in office ...

t.

[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 02-12-2009).]

and I don't bury my head in the sand, but Donny, instead of constantly reminding us of how bad the economic situation is (the 'talking heads' on tv do that enough every day), how about going back to telling us how bad everyone else's keyboard or PA system is ... that was a LOT more fun ... ...

t.

Hey Kingfrog -you hit the nail on the head this time. Some of the "Youngsters" on the forum don't remember the 1970's down turn. Remember standing in line for hours to get 2 or 3 gallons of gas(at any price) or being told the new house you were going to build would cost you from 19-21% interest or returning from the grocery store with only 1 bag instead of the 2 or 3 bags that your money once bought? Yea, tell me just how bad it is today.

Thanks to all the talking heads and a lot of very poor decisions made in the lending business the general public has been convinced we are all going to hell in a hand basket.

And who on earth really believes that government spending is the real answer? Anyone here ever work in retail? Those companies are not going to suddenly start hiring back folks just because someone in Washington thinks they should.

I run a rather successful real estate company and I can personally vouch for how many of our deals the last 2 years were done for folks with marginal credit and no money for a down payment. Did it ever occur to anyone that these buyers did not even have enough cash on hand to maintain a new home? Hell, the feds even had programs these people could attend to learn how to get these "everyone deserves a home" loans.

As far as the car industry is concerned I have no sympathy for them. Even the workers were sold out by the unions who never had the wisdom or desire to protect them from what they had to know was coming. How many decades have they had to upgrade their systems and compete with the foreign manufactures?

Great thread - good place to vent.

Hammer

then there is the RV Motorhome industry where manufacturers and dealers are folding by the bunch.
they did sell a ton of them though.
However many if not most of them were financed for 20 years, yes I said 20 years for a rv.
Now with depreciation on them running about 30 % the last two years their value is about 1/2 of what they still owe on them.
Now, how will the politicos bail those folks out.
Bebop

Politics and Religion very HOT topics. Here's all I'll say, my old buddy Bill taught me this one:

I'm not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution and do not wish to engage in any controversy. My primary purpose is to enjoy music and learn from those more experienced here at this forum

Oh yes...the stock market really likes his actions! NOT!
Lee

Ya gotta love Bill, Steve.

My sentiments as well.

Its funny how some people allready blame Obama....

If this doesn't get worse then teh late 70's Obama will have done a miracle..

Lifelong attitudes are hard to overcome. Luckily, as evidenced by the election, and now, the approval ratings, those people are in the minority. I guess they'd rather see the nation in distress than see HIM succeed. All we can hope for is that each succeeding generation will become more enlightened and more tolerant.

I know that this is not the right forum for this discussion but it really pains me to see the national good will generated by this election sullied by a handful of haters.

chas

All I can add is...................
I bought my first house in 1983 and the one I'm living in, in 2000. I had average credit and was middle class. Both times, the loan application process took over 10 days. Employers, references, credit history was checked thoroughly. I was required to put down 10% and they actually did several interviews to insure I could pay back the loan. I work with numerous people who live in homes worth 4 times mine. Their payments are 4 times mine and they are all in trouble. Who's fault is that?
I've been transferring all my VHS tapes to DVD the past several months. I've got many major network recordings from the last 10 years and the ones from 2000 - 2005 have tons of mortgage commercials. Many offer equity loans for 200% of your homes value, no money down, no closing costs, ect..................
I remember being tempted several times to take out a second mortgage. Many of my friends did, and easily. Luckily I did not and am sitting better now than most..........even if I actually have less. I've made sacrifices and lived without many times to keep up with all my payments, which I have done. Now, my tax money is going to bale out many who made the choice to live beyong their means. I've said this before...............When did we, as a society, become so irresponsible where their is no honor in paying your debts. My grandparents would be in shock to witness the greed and lies that have consumed so many. It is not what they taught me and my parents..............................-charley

Watch 'The Ascent of Money' on PBS (you can stream it)

This deregulation frenzy started with Reagan, ably abetted by Bush 1, continued by Clinton and accelerated by Bush 2. Plenty of blame to go around. Let's put it this way... if the sh*thouse we are in now is due to Clinton, and couldn't be reversed by Bush, given EIGHT YEARS to do it, then anything that goes wrong in the next eight years is on Bush, no?

Or is that going to be, ONLY if something goes right in the next few years will it be Dubya's legacy. If it goes wrong, it'll be Obama...

Republicanism isn't a political party, it's a religion. When the facts don't fit, fall back on dogma, eh? The Republican president is like the Pope. Simply infallible... Anything goes wrong, it's Satan (Dems!), anything goes right, it's the Pope.

You'd have thought they would have sought a tax-free religious status by now

Charly,
Right on - why in hell should those of us who have lived a responsible financial life, paid our bills, worked multiple jobs, and still managed to raised our kids with good moral standards and send them to college spend our hard earned money on the fools who think everything in life is free or deserved without working for it?

Chas, I think you miss the point - I really believe the folks you refer to as "haters" are really people who just don't believe in what our president is suggesting as a way to improve the lives or our citizens. As far as blame goes - well that sits firmly in the laps of all the people in the country who thought they were on a free ride and didn't look to the future. Some call it greed.

Hey - it is still a great thread.

Hammer

But they believed in the Bush plan... now, apparently the Obama legacy. It's not so much the deflection of blame, more the wholesale failure to admit it had anything to do with their politicians' mad rush to give the financial market 'free rein', as if there was NEVER a reason for regulation in the first place...

You can remember the 70's? Bully for you.. Shame you don't remember the 20's as well. Financial institutions have no vested interest in the health of the country as a whole. The are international, shadowy entities that profit, and profit alone drive. If you can make money at the expense of any country's economy, you do it. Only governments have the power to rein them in. Once a government abrogates that responsibility, it's devil take the hindmost.

Tonight's CNBC program 'House of Cards' is another objective look at the collapse. And once again, just like 'The Ascent of Money', the blame for what happened gets placed firmly in the laps of greedy Wall St. traders, dumb (or deliberately misled) buyers, and the 'asleep at the wheel' SEC and government entities that were run by the wolves they were supposed to guard against, NOT Democratic politicians or policies. This debacle happened squarely on the watch of the Republican party, and anyone that thinks their mantra of tax cuts and deregulation, after precipitating this crisis, is going to solve it as well is in the grip of a religious fervor...

Insanity is the expectation of a different result, despite trying the same thing over and over...

Sad, sad, sad. Clearly Rush Limbaugh and his ilk have done their work well. How can any rational human being possibly believe that a handful of ignorant, uneducated, low-income, inner-city, minorities were suddenly given the keys to multi-million dollar mansions which they clearly could not afford and now all of us hard-working, tax-paying, by-the-book, REAL Americans, have to pay for it. And further, that the irresponsible actions of these low-lifes have somehow triggered a GLOBAL economic melt-down. Of course, banking executives and CEO's who gave themselves BILLIONS in bonuses while running their companies into the ground with bad business practices motivated solely by greed, had nothing to do with it. Or ponzi schemes that bilked investors (including pension plans, charitable institutions, 401k's) out of 50 BILLION dollars. Oh yeah, they're blameless. After all, they worked hard, sent their kids to college, and generally fit the American image better. That makes the fact that their greed devastated the lives of millions around the globe, somehow, more palatable. When I hear some self-righteous, sanctimonious hypocrite try to lay the blame for this terrible economic tragedy at the feet of some poor slob for trying to 'live the American dream' by buying some $140k shack on a 20k salary (aided and abetted by the 'hard-working' banker/mortgage lender who has assured him that he can afford it, despite his unemployed wife and five kids), I have to question the intelligence of anyone subscribing to that. Of course, we believe what we want to believe. It's difficult to override a lifetime of brainwashing. What's easy is looking for the most popular scapegoat.

Why, oh why, oh why, do you want to pass this crap on to your kids and grand-kids. Take the high ground. Break the cycle. You'll be a better person for it.



Hammer, I've lived in this country all my life. I was born here, raised here, educated here, raised a family here, and will probably be buried here. I DID NOT MISS THE POINT. With all the hostility towards Obama (whose biggest crime seems to be his middle name) on these threads, where is the outrage towards Bernie Madoff? Maybe it's time to face the truth not only about ourselves but about where America still is regarding social attitudes.

BTW, I realize that the attitudes expressed here are basically the attitudes of 'old men', men whose attitudes were shaped by the social mores of the 40's, 50's, 60's, and even the 70's. Hopefully, when this population dies off, it will be replaced by a generation less tainted with this plague. It would be so nice if the community of artists and musicians led the way.

chas

Chas when this population is gone....this world is doomed!

Well maybe it'll take greed, avarice, environmental pollution, hate, intolerance, bigotry, Chinese food, GM cars, and religion, with it. There IS something to be said for 'a fresh start'.

chas

Chas dont worry we won't be here to find out Just smile that you woke up today, fulfill each day with happiness & enjoy your life as much as you can.

(Sigh) I'll try. Thanks.

chas

It's always darkest...just before it goes pitch black.

DNJ deep down I really believe that. We are experiencing another " Fall of the Roman Empire." May God help us all.

Charly and Hammer and I agree with you on your points about finanicially responsibility. I'm from that mold as well.

Interesting that 3 years ago my wife and I were considering purchasing a vacation home. Thru hard work all our lives our home was paid off by the time we were 48 years old.( now in mid 50s). Short story is our bank gave us a home equity loan for close to $300,000. Our home is valued at about $285,000. Not sure what they were thinking but my wife and I could never figure based on our income how they could loan us that kind of money for 30 years. Sure with our home as collateral I suppose it was a no brainer for them.




[This message has been edited by Pacesetter (edited 02-13-2009).]

Pacesetter - you are included in the thousands who were allowed to "over finance" a home. In the past several years we sold homes in the very high 6 figures to people who, believe it or not, did not make down payments. To make matters worse some of them got what is called "stated income" loans - that means you just tell them what you make. Many of these buyers were well educated professionals who are now claiming they were among the less educated folks who didn't know better.

Chas- I am astonished about your remarks concerning the "old men" who hang out here. You best get down on your hands and knees and thank the good Lord that the "old men" here were around in 1941. And exactly what do you find offensive about the good old American ideals of working hard for what you have? You bet I passed on these ideas to my kids and if the country is going to survive I hope they do the same.

As for Madoff - those are the people our government should be helping - the thousands who expected to retire and will work til they die. Those are the folks I feel compassion for.

Still a great thread

Hammer

[This message has been edited by hammer (edited 02-13-2009).]

Full Retirement is becoming a dissolving dream........to be rich is no longer a sin......it's a Miracle''

Hi Donny,

I don't think retirement is going to be hard for folks to do in the future. Over the last 100 years there has been several financial down turns. Each and every time the American spirit survived and the people turned it around. There are fantastic opportunities out there right now and the investment savey folks are jumping all over them. I have believed for the last 10 years that those people relying on a corporate sponsored retirement were in trouble and unfortunately I was right. I was also very unsettled about how many of my friends had all their retirement vested in stocks. We all know where they are today.

No Donny, I am a strong believer in the American spirit and everything it has always stood for. I truly believe if the government will just let it run it's natural course and take great care in how and who it decides to help it will be ok. I know there are families hurting and I also know that communities have always banded together in tough times to help those in need.

I retired about 12 years ago and am thankful everyday about my timing and good fortune. But a lot of that good fortune came at the expense of very hard work and a lot of luck.

still a great thread
Hammer

Since I'm one of the "old men who hang out here", I get to express an opinion about them. Poll after poll, taken during the presidential election, showed 'old men' (well, specifically, White males between the ages of 50 and 75) to be the most bigoted segment of the population. Is there anyone, anywhere (who's not in total denial) who would dispute that? As for 1941, yeah, wasn't that about the time we were rounding up 2nd, 3rd, even 4th generation Japanese-Americans and shuttling them off to internment camps while simultaneously confiscating their hard-earned (as in 'worked hard and paid for it) property. As I recall, that was also about the time that a tenth of the population couldn't sit at a soda fountain anywhere below the Mason-dixon line, or vote without fear of death threats, or die in the same foxhole with his White counterpart. Yeah, I remember 1941, I just don't "thank God" for it.

The point is, you missed the whole point of my post (rather deliberately, I suspect). You made it about 'good old fashioned values' like working for what you get. Who's going to be against that, except that that wasn't what I was talking about; a great tried-and-proven Limbaugh/Conservative Republican technique. No doubt, many here will swallow it lock, stock, and barrel, mainly because they want to.

"Astonished by my remarks"? Maybe if you'd lived your life in my skin, you wouldn't be. Guess we'll never know. For what it's worth, I believe you're a decent guy, just a product of this society that we all grew up in, just from different sides of the tracks.

chas

Having read this entire thread and agreeing with a great deal that has been said. I have some words to share....

I am neither an OLD MAN, nor am I a young man.... I am an OLD WOMAN with more of an interest in the new perspectives voiced by our new president.

All of my life I have been accused of being a non-conformist....It is true I always have been a non conformist.....

Religion? I wear no label, attend no churches anymore, although I did as a child and young woman because I could be a part of the choir... I liked the pagentry and costumes too.... I had no interests in church beyond what I have just told you.. For me, god is a non-existant false concept, life begins at viable birth, and life is an inside job. There is only energy in our universe and we are in charge of how we manifest the energy... The world transforms as we transform.

I learned a long long time ago that "Belief" is also a false concept. That we are separate from all else is also a false concept....

Politics? I wear no label, have no "party" affiliation. I tend to lean heavily in the direction of clean, air, clean earth, equality for every person on the planet, equal pay for equal work, equal opportunity for all, free education through college/university for all, and complete separation of church and state.... Get god and religion off our money, out of our government, our states, cities and townships. Additionally, no organization, business, or adult should be exempt from taxation. Perhaps every adult citizen should be taxed at the same rate as every other citizen.

Warring, killing, and arguing, must cease to exist and our planet must be cleansed if it is to be a place for life and love to survive and thrive.

My passion is music... I play Technics Arranger keyboards, the KN6000, for senior audiences, and the AWESOME KN7000 for myself and others who visit me and will play for audiences when someone will carry it to and from for me. I am too small and old to handle it myself. I am self-taught in music.

In college I earned a 3.7 GPA. I also earned a membership in the International Honor Society. Philosophy and Human behavior, along with music are my passions.

Be All You Are..Be Yourself, Everyone Else Is Taken.....



------------------

Posted by Chas:

--------------------------------------------
Since I'm one of the "old men who hang out here", I get to express an opinion about them. Poll after poll, taken during the presidential election, showed 'old men' (well, specifically, White males between the ages of 50 and 75) to be the most bigoted segment of the population. Is there anyone, anywhere (who's not in total denial) who would dispute that? As for 1941, yeah, wasn't that about the time we were rounding up 2nd, 3rd, even 4th generation Japanese-Americans and shuttling them off to internment camps while simultaneously confiscating their hard-earned (as in 'worked hard and paid for it) property. As I recall, that was also about the time that a tenth of the population couldn't sit at a soda fountain anywhere below the Mason-dixon line, or vote without fear of death threats, or die in the same foxhole with his White counterpart. Yeah, I remember 1941, I just don't "thank God" for it.
--------------------------------------------


WOW! Well said Chas! I'm not as old as many here, but I'm damn glad I wasn't livin in 1941. Shoot..., good o'l American Ideals my ass! A terrible time IMO. Carting off the Japanese to camps..., Oppression throughout the nation. Dark times if you ask me. American Ideals were for anyone in those days that were white. Even the poorest of white families in those days lived better lives. Hell at least the poorest white families in those day at least had the chance to pull up. They weren't being lynched, beat down, raped, made to sit at the back of the bus or get off if there wasn't a seat for a white person available, didn't have someone tell them in a store they weren't allowed to try on the clothing they wanted to buy, and a whole slew of other things. 1941 American Ideals in those days were for anyone with white skin.

Chas is right.., man all this crap you hear about Obama and most often on this forum it still appears to be an issue with the man's middle name. Come off it people. We have an African American President (well a bi-racial one at that).., accept it and get over yourselves. Geez.., look at how much support Obama had from other nations hoping and dreaming that this nation could finally look past the color line and elect a President based on his political views and not focus on his skin color.




[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 02-13-2009).]

Hello,
I consider myself an independent voter that until recently, bordered on political apathy. Each time a politician speaks about what the headlines refer to as “the huge stimulus plan” and “the massive bailout plan”, he/she begins the discussion with a reference to the ‘…eight years of Bush’s failed economic policy…’ If the economic policy of the Bush years were honestly examined, we would find that six out of the eight years were fairly decent, 9/11 notwithstanding. The last two years of the Bush administration saw the souring of the economy caused by fraudulent and deceitful bank and Wall Street dealings, not a failure of policy. The oversight of the banking and financial sectors were the direct responsibility of congressional committees that did not do their job. Unfortunately, the people responsible for this oversight will never be held accountable for shirking their duties and the economic “disaster” that has resulted. Further, it seems that the people responsible will not experience the dire life style changes that the average citizen seems destined to due to illegal behavior and congressional incompetence. They will receive their substantial pensions, and live their lives out in comfort I’m sure.
We may argue that Bush’s foreign, education, policies were questionable. But, I don’t think that a fair and honest appraisal of Bush’s economic policies would show that the policies were the cause of the current economic failure – It was greedy people and crooks in the banking and financial industries along with the ineptness of the respective congressional oversight committees.
Ciao

Addendum:
At the time that Bernard Madoff’s ponzi scheme was uncovered, every newscast defined the term “ponzi scheme” daily for several days running. It seems that the ‘recovery’ plans fit the definition of a “ponzi scheme”.

If you're really interested in who is to blame for the economic meltdown, look in the business section of the current issue of TIME magazine. The article, by Nancy Gibbs, is entitled "25 People to blame". If you don't have access to the article but just want to know who they are, go here:
http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1877351_1877350_1877339,00.html

You may notice that Mr. B Hussien Obama is nowhere on the list. Hint: both Bush and Clinton are.

chas

Reality has no bearing on this...
BArney Frank and Chris Dodd absolutely said in no uncertain terms the Government would NOT have to bail out Freddie and Fannie back in early 2000's when McCain partnered with three other Senate Republicans to reform the government’s involvement in lending three years ago, after an attempt by the Bush administration died in Congress two years earlier. McCain spoke forcefully on May 25, 2006, on behalf of the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005 (via Beltway Snark):

Mr. President, this week Fannie Mae’s regulator reported that the company’s quarterly reports of profit growth over the past few years were “illusions deliberately and systematically created” by the company’s senior management, which resulted in a $10.6 billion accounting scandal.

The Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight’s report goes on to say that Fannie Mae employees deliberately and intentionally manipulated financial reports to hit earnings targets in order to trigger bonuses for senior executives. In the case of Franklin Raines, Fannie Mae’s former chief executive officer, OFHEO’s report shows that over half of Mr. Raines’ compensation for the 6 years through 2003 was directly tied to meeting earnings targets. The report of financial misconduct at Fannie Mae echoes the deeply troubling $5 billion profit restatement at Freddie Mac.

The OFHEO report also states that Fannie Mae used its political power to lobby Congress in an effort to interfere with the regulator’s examination of the company’s accounting problems. This report comes some weeks after Freddie Mac paid a record $3.8 million fine in a settlement with the Federal Election Commission and restated lobbying disclosure reports from 2004 to 2005. These are entities that have demonstrated over and over again that they are deeply in need of reform.

For years I have been concerned about the regulatory structure that governs Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac–known as Government-sponsored entities or GSEs–and the sheer magnitude of these companies and the role they play in the housing market. OFHEO’s report this week does nothing to ease these concerns. In fact, the report does quite the contrary. OFHEO’s report solidifies my view that the GSEs need to be reformed without delay.

I join as a cosponsor of the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005, S. 190, to underscore my support for quick passage of GSE regulatory reform legislation. If Congress does not act, American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the housing market, the overall financial system, and the economy as a whole.

I urge my colleagues to support swift action on this GSE reform legislation.

In this speech, McCain managed to predict the entire collapse that has forced the government to eat Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, along with Bear Stearns and AIG. He hammers the falsification of financial records to benefit executives, including Franklin Raines and Jim Johnson, both of whom have worked as advisers to Barack Obama this year. McCain also noted the power of their lobbying efforts to forestall oversight over their business practices. He finishes with the warning that proved all too prescient over the past few days and weeks.

When the Republicans wanted to REGULATE FRANK and Dodd fought it and it was defeated...TWICE by Democrats.

Sorry, But this mess was caused by the HOUSING crisis. For the first 6 years of the Bush Presidency the economy was steaming along. People that could NEVER afford a home Bought them. They took loans out on over inflated homes, buying cars on 60 and 72 month contracts.

INDIVIDUALS caused this mess. Not Bush, Not the Banks. The banks were enablers but the buck stops where people sign the dotted line on those contracts and credit card receipts. As usual there is a total lack of personal responsibility and a blaming of those in power for their personal mess and choices. I know. I made a small fortune on the stupidity of others and don't feel bad for them. Extenze is still buying expensive airtime. I APPLAUD those who produce a successful product and become rich (regardless of the claims) You cannot save people from themselves. Nor can you legislate financial wisdom for the masses.

So how does Obama "fix" the last eight years? Buy putting the country even DEEPER in debt giving Hollywood $250 Millionm A Billion for Reids railroad from LA to LAs Vegas??? LOL. Millions Saving some Rat in California.

And where is the TRANSPARENCY the Messiah promised. the 40 hour PUBLIC look at an important Bill before signage? Why has he for the first time in history removed the Census from the Commerce Department as stated in the Constitution and given it to Henrich Himmler Emmanuel. Why has Pelosi shut out the Republican Party after NEWT Gingrich OPENED the same door to the Dems?

I like what Obama is doing! He Like three Democrats who had both Houses before him He will hand the midterms back to the Conservatives. He will be responsible for the new Conservative movement because he forgot 58 Million people did NOT vote for the Messiah and the Independents who gave him the Presidency are a fickle Bunch and do not agree with the "Fairness Doctrine" censoring successful talk show hosts who dare to critique the Messiah.

Freedom of Speech is not fair. It was not meant to be. Criticism is never fair to those criticized. Air America had it's chance. they could not get an audience!

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 02-13-2009).]

Indeed You can tell who wasn't around in the 70's buy their ignorance and Press generated "comparison." The are buying the Presses and their boy Obama's gloom and Doom. We actually HAD a PRESS in the 70's. They wee not carrying water for any Party.

I don;t think they even can conceptualize 19% interest rates or a 13% inflation rate. The Collapse of the Steel Industry SIX months AFTER they were "bailed out" by another liberal who once again ushered in a more Conservative movement. Carter was out of his league as President...Obama is the same. He is not in office two months and already he has proved himself to be a total amateur and lap dog for Pelosi and Reid.

Reagan TURNED THAT MESS around in TWO years,doing the exact opposite of what they have done here.
They said trickle down economics wouldn't work...of course those who said so and still say so do not realize EVERY TIME THEY GET A CHECK FROM SOMEONE FOR THEIR WORK,PRODUCT, OR SERVICES IS PARTICIPATING IN TRICKLE DOWN Econimics!!!!

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 02-13-2009).]

You would not want him to succeed if you knew where Pelosi ,Reid and he wanted to take this country.

The economy will turn around. It always does, It will be slower and cost far more due to all the Government jobs that do not produce a profit. Every thing one has. EVERYTHING is the result of a profit made somewhere. Government produces nothing. It can only take from those who do.

I am sure Heinrick Himmler Emanuele will see that the census counts every illegal alien in reapportioning votes in an attempt to remain in power and destroy the two party system in favor of all the "victims" of society before people again wake up and realize they made a mistake like they did in the 70's(never mind the Unconstitutionality of removing the Census from the Commerce Dept.) "Were Democrats, We don't need no stinkin Constitution!!! Wheres your guns...?"

I rest my case. Bush was listed for his inability to get the congress to do their jobs. The democratic congressmen/woman with the oversight duties that could have averted the magnitude of the current crises, were in the pockets of Fanny and Freddy, and the republicans were in the pockets of the Wall Street manipulators.
Pres. Obama will make the list eventually make the list - he is after all, a polotician above all else.
Ciao

DIKI you really need to pick up a book now and then and stay off CNBC which never ran an objective piece in its short life. If a piece does not FIT within their Liberal bias , it will NOT be seen., Period. Thats like someone telling you to listen to Rush Limbaugh, he is going to run an objective piece on Clinton. Wall Street is full of Greedy people. Get OVER it. They trade stock for MONEY!! They skirt the rules. They have a way around every new rule before the rule passes. But in the end as Wall Street goes MAIN STREET goes. The Money Changers are the kings of the hill. like it or not. Class envy will not solve a thing. You can play or pay. Again BARNEY FRANK AND CHRIS DODD FOUGHT REREGULATION!! They LED the charge AGAINST RE REGULATION!!! OBAMA SUED banks on that would NOT LOOSEN their standards for those who could not afford a home.....

The causes for the Depression are nothing like we have today. A run on the banks caused the collapse and the Smoot Hawley Protectionist Act CEMENTED it. Many things were put in place to avoid that ever happening again. And it won't. (even in the worst of the Depression 70% of all workers were still employed) The FDIC is the reason there has not been a run on the banks today. I feel totally safe having money in the bank, and I have FDIC protected money with Capital One. I can sleep at night. But you can bet I will be buying major inflation protection instruments over the next six months.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 02-13-2009).]

Bernie Madoff is not President. those who "invested" with him are angry. But THEY made the choice. Just like the guy who could not read a contract when signing for his funny money loan on his new home and the 60 months worth of car payments and all those little signatures on credit card receipts.

When the "old men" die off be assured you will never achieve the standard of living many of us have achieved. You are a victim of society.

Producers PAY your bills. But someday you will seek government ot pay them. But government will have no place to collect the money from. Wall Street will be gone, The greedy banks will be gone, All those who create jobs will send the last of them overseas. Their money will be deposited in forign banks. Those who have will flee like they are doing in California.

Study California Son.....THAT is your future. Good Luck with that. I remember "idealism" I was a child of the 60's. We we PLUCKED off the streets into a REAL WAR...We KNOW and have experienced the difference between a war and an 8 year street fight. 5000 dead on two fronts in 8 years and thats a WAR??? Any war with 5000 US Casualties in 8 years in a VICTORY in my book.....

We lose 5000 AMERICAN kids every year to gunfire within our borders. Wheres the outrage??? LOL .Many of us eventually grew up and became PRODUCERS of goods and services. Many of us are not participating in this "recession" We saved for the rainy day. We knew life was more than having the latest and greatest at the expense of our future security, We SAW what was going on in government and saved for the eventuality . We SOLD our homes to stupid people. We know to sell high and buy low. We did not NEED government to do anything for us but get out of the way..

Yeah go ahead and hate the rich....hate them all the way to the welfare line.
Please grow up , read a few books, put the flowers and dope away and get a stomach for blood....You are going to need it.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 02-13-2009).]

Well stated Kingfrog!!

Still a heck of a good thread
Hammer

Well! I simply can't believe how much I've learned about arrangers in this thread - haven't learned a damn thing about economics/politics from it, however....

Since most of the garbage in your post is so ridiculous, it's hard to pick out a highlight, BUT....I think your cavalier attitude about the loss of 5000 young American lives is the one that's sure to gain you lots of fans on this board. Luckily, no one pays much attention to the lunatic fringe.

chas

Darn, I always hoped I'd end my career working in a music store.



And yet, I wouldn't trade places with you for all the gold in Fort Knox.

chas

Oh I think you would. I work PT in a music store because I choose to and the alternative is sitting home, fishing or playing golf, neither of which I enjoy. And I'm not even 54 years old yet!

Its easy to make wild assumptions about that which you have no idea of.

Obviously you have never served in the Military and have no idea or the stomach for what "WAR" is. I will assure you 5000 volunteers dead in 8 years on two fronts is not a war. US causalities barely eclipse those who died in ONE hour on 9-11. Of course they don't matter because its far more politically correct and fun to cry out against the "skirmish" in Iraq.

Im guessing you voted for Obama. Here an enlightened read for someone outside the country who witnessed the recent election of a nobody with no record. Someone whom his voters would have thought was another captured terrorist if they heard his name in passing on the News.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...ope-Earth.html#


"Anyone would think we had just elected a hip, skinny and youthful replacement for God, with a plan to modernise Heaven and Hell – or that at the very least John Lennon had come back from the dead.

The swooning frenzy over the choice of Barack Obama as President of the United States must be one of the most absurd waves of self-deception and swirling fantasy ever to sweep through an advanced civilisation. At least Mandela-worship – its nearest equivalent – is focused on a man who actually did something.

I really don’t see how the Obama devotees can ever in future mock the Moonies, the Scientologists or people who claim to have been abducted in flying saucers. This is a cult like the one which grew up around Princess Diana, bereft of reason and hostile to facts.It already has all the signs of such a thing. The newspapers which recorded Obama’s victory have become valuable relics. You may buy Obama picture books and Obama calendars and if there isn’t yet a children’s picture version of his story, there soon will be.

Proper books, recording his sordid associates, his cowardly voting record, his astonishingly militant commitment to unrestricted abortion and his blundering trip to Africa, are little-read and hard to find.

If you can believe that this undistinguished and conventionally Left-wing machine politician is a sort of secular saviour, then you can believe anything. He plainly doesn’t believe it himself. His cliche-stuffed, PC clunker of an acceptance speech suffered badly from nerves. It was what you would expect from someone who knew he’d promised too much and that from now on the easy bit was over.

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 02-14-2009).]

Lt.Cmdr, USN Ret.
5yrs. active - two tours, Vietnam
10 yrs. reserves (5 yrs. active res./5 yrs. inactive res.) -total 15 yrs.
4 of 5yrs (active) with Fleet Marines (Medical Service Corp) 1st and 3rd Bat. (1,5 and 3,3). Was 58,000 dead enough to make it a war for you?

How about you?

chas

Whether it's 8000 or 10.. a war is a war. Since when does the amount of people who die qualify whether it's a war ?


Chas..

Thanks for your service to our country..
I have a lot of respect for you and agree with many of the things you have to say.

Bravo Chas!

chas while I may not agree with you politically, I admire your service to OUR country...
t.
United States Army Reserves (Ret)

6 years US Navy Submarines 72-78
SSN594/SSN617
That was enough.
Lost two drafted family members in Viet Nam one volunteer AF in Korea
REAL Wars......

Been Conservative even since. And Yes, I hope this President fails Miserably because his success means the failure of the Country who's given far too many lives to prevent what this ass and his "victimized minions wants to do.

I can't dignify this gibberish with a response. However, if any of you served with either of these Marine units and are interested in any reunions or upcoming events, let me know. I'm not very active anymore but still get all the mailings. Since I spent most of my time in the Fleet Marines, I still identify mostly with the Corp.

I'm a hardcore 'peacenik' at this stage of my life, but I salute all my fellow vets and especially those handful of civilians who were brave enough to stand up for us (or at least not trash us) in the aftermath of Vietnam.

Now can we get back to music stuff. I'm dying to get some objective feedback from Fran on the new MS. I've always thought of it as more of a Synth/Controller/WS/Sampler than an arranger. Since I have no plans to use one 'live', I would probably trade even-up for my FantomG. Fran, you like Rolands, right?

chas

Bravo KingFrog!

Bravo Jerry T.

Kingfrog interesting link, there's one sentence in that link that stood out and about knocked me off my feet. It was the last sentence and it read:

"Where now is our last best hope on Earth?

Think I'll take residence under a rock.

Costa Rica is nice.... Iran and France "likes us" now



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 02-15-2009).]