(Sigh) I'll try. Thanks.

chas

It's always darkest...just before it goes pitch black.

DNJ deep down I really believe that. We are experiencing another " Fall of the Roman Empire." May God help us all.

Charly and Hammer and I agree with you on your points about finanicially responsibility. I'm from that mold as well.

Interesting that 3 years ago my wife and I were considering purchasing a vacation home. Thru hard work all our lives our home was paid off by the time we were 48 years old.( now in mid 50s). Short story is our bank gave us a home equity loan for close to $300,000. Our home is valued at about $285,000. Not sure what they were thinking but my wife and I could never figure based on our income how they could loan us that kind of money for 30 years. Sure with our home as collateral I suppose it was a no brainer for them.




[This message has been edited by Pacesetter (edited 02-13-2009).]

Pacesetter - you are included in the thousands who were allowed to "over finance" a home. In the past several years we sold homes in the very high 6 figures to people who, believe it or not, did not make down payments. To make matters worse some of them got what is called "stated income" loans - that means you just tell them what you make. Many of these buyers were well educated professionals who are now claiming they were among the less educated folks who didn't know better.

Chas- I am astonished about your remarks concerning the "old men" who hang out here. You best get down on your hands and knees and thank the good Lord that the "old men" here were around in 1941. And exactly what do you find offensive about the good old American ideals of working hard for what you have? You bet I passed on these ideas to my kids and if the country is going to survive I hope they do the same.

As for Madoff - those are the people our government should be helping - the thousands who expected to retire and will work til they die. Those are the folks I feel compassion for.

Still a great thread

Hammer

[This message has been edited by hammer (edited 02-13-2009).]

Full Retirement is becoming a dissolving dream........to be rich is no longer a sin......it's a Miracle''

Hi Donny,

I don't think retirement is going to be hard for folks to do in the future. Over the last 100 years there has been several financial down turns. Each and every time the American spirit survived and the people turned it around. There are fantastic opportunities out there right now and the investment savey folks are jumping all over them. I have believed for the last 10 years that those people relying on a corporate sponsored retirement were in trouble and unfortunately I was right. I was also very unsettled about how many of my friends had all their retirement vested in stocks. We all know where they are today.

No Donny, I am a strong believer in the American spirit and everything it has always stood for. I truly believe if the government will just let it run it's natural course and take great care in how and who it decides to help it will be ok. I know there are families hurting and I also know that communities have always banded together in tough times to help those in need.

I retired about 12 years ago and am thankful everyday about my timing and good fortune. But a lot of that good fortune came at the expense of very hard work and a lot of luck.

still a great thread
Hammer

Since I'm one of the "old men who hang out here", I get to express an opinion about them. Poll after poll, taken during the presidential election, showed 'old men' (well, specifically, White males between the ages of 50 and 75) to be the most bigoted segment of the population. Is there anyone, anywhere (who's not in total denial) who would dispute that? As for 1941, yeah, wasn't that about the time we were rounding up 2nd, 3rd, even 4th generation Japanese-Americans and shuttling them off to internment camps while simultaneously confiscating their hard-earned (as in 'worked hard and paid for it) property. As I recall, that was also about the time that a tenth of the population couldn't sit at a soda fountain anywhere below the Mason-dixon line, or vote without fear of death threats, or die in the same foxhole with his White counterpart. Yeah, I remember 1941, I just don't "thank God" for it.

The point is, you missed the whole point of my post (rather deliberately, I suspect). You made it about 'good old fashioned values' like working for what you get. Who's going to be against that, except that that wasn't what I was talking about; a great tried-and-proven Limbaugh/Conservative Republican technique. No doubt, many here will swallow it lock, stock, and barrel, mainly because they want to.

"Astonished by my remarks"? Maybe if you'd lived your life in my skin, you wouldn't be. Guess we'll never know. For what it's worth, I believe you're a decent guy, just a product of this society that we all grew up in, just from different sides of the tracks.

chas

Having read this entire thread and agreeing with a great deal that has been said. I have some words to share....

I am neither an OLD MAN, nor am I a young man.... I am an OLD WOMAN with more of an interest in the new perspectives voiced by our new president.

All of my life I have been accused of being a non-conformist....It is true I always have been a non conformist.....

Religion? I wear no label, attend no churches anymore, although I did as a child and young woman because I could be a part of the choir... I liked the pagentry and costumes too.... I had no interests in church beyond what I have just told you.. For me, god is a non-existant false concept, life begins at viable birth, and life is an inside job. There is only energy in our universe and we are in charge of how we manifest the energy... The world transforms as we transform.

I learned a long long time ago that "Belief" is also a false concept. That we are separate from all else is also a false concept....

Politics? I wear no label, have no "party" affiliation. I tend to lean heavily in the direction of clean, air, clean earth, equality for every person on the planet, equal pay for equal work, equal opportunity for all, free education through college/university for all, and complete separation of church and state.... Get god and religion off our money, out of our government, our states, cities and townships. Additionally, no organization, business, or adult should be exempt from taxation. Perhaps every adult citizen should be taxed at the same rate as every other citizen.

Warring, killing, and arguing, must cease to exist and our planet must be cleansed if it is to be a place for life and love to survive and thrive.

My passion is music... I play Technics Arranger keyboards, the KN6000, for senior audiences, and the AWESOME KN7000 for myself and others who visit me and will play for audiences when someone will carry it to and from for me. I am too small and old to handle it myself. I am self-taught in music.

In college I earned a 3.7 GPA. I also earned a membership in the International Honor Society. Philosophy and Human behavior, along with music are my passions.

Be All You Are..Be Yourself, Everyone Else Is Taken.....



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Posted by Chas:

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Since I'm one of the "old men who hang out here", I get to express an opinion about them. Poll after poll, taken during the presidential election, showed 'old men' (well, specifically, White males between the ages of 50 and 75) to be the most bigoted segment of the population. Is there anyone, anywhere (who's not in total denial) who would dispute that? As for 1941, yeah, wasn't that about the time we were rounding up 2nd, 3rd, even 4th generation Japanese-Americans and shuttling them off to internment camps while simultaneously confiscating their hard-earned (as in 'worked hard and paid for it) property. As I recall, that was also about the time that a tenth of the population couldn't sit at a soda fountain anywhere below the Mason-dixon line, or vote without fear of death threats, or die in the same foxhole with his White counterpart. Yeah, I remember 1941, I just don't "thank God" for it.
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WOW! Well said Chas! I'm not as old as many here, but I'm damn glad I wasn't livin in 1941. Shoot..., good o'l American Ideals my ass! A terrible time IMO. Carting off the Japanese to camps..., Oppression throughout the nation. Dark times if you ask me. American Ideals were for anyone in those days that were white. Even the poorest of white families in those days lived better lives. Hell at least the poorest white families in those day at least had the chance to pull up. They weren't being lynched, beat down, raped, made to sit at the back of the bus or get off if there wasn't a seat for a white person available, didn't have someone tell them in a store they weren't allowed to try on the clothing they wanted to buy, and a whole slew of other things. 1941 American Ideals in those days were for anyone with white skin.

Chas is right.., man all this crap you hear about Obama and most often on this forum it still appears to be an issue with the man's middle name. Come off it people. We have an African American President (well a bi-racial one at that).., accept it and get over yourselves. Geez.., look at how much support Obama had from other nations hoping and dreaming that this nation could finally look past the color line and elect a President based on his political views and not focus on his skin color.




[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 02-13-2009).]

Hello,
I consider myself an independent voter that until recently, bordered on political apathy. Each time a politician speaks about what the headlines refer to as “the huge stimulus plan” and “the massive bailout plan”, he/she begins the discussion with a reference to the ‘…eight years of Bush’s failed economic policy…’ If the economic policy of the Bush years were honestly examined, we would find that six out of the eight years were fairly decent, 9/11 notwithstanding. The last two years of the Bush administration saw the souring of the economy caused by fraudulent and deceitful bank and Wall Street dealings, not a failure of policy. The oversight of the banking and financial sectors were the direct responsibility of congressional committees that did not do their job. Unfortunately, the people responsible for this oversight will never be held accountable for shirking their duties and the economic “disaster” that has resulted. Further, it seems that the people responsible will not experience the dire life style changes that the average citizen seems destined to due to illegal behavior and congressional incompetence. They will receive their substantial pensions, and live their lives out in comfort I’m sure.
We may argue that Bush’s foreign, education, policies were questionable. But, I don’t think that a fair and honest appraisal of Bush’s economic policies would show that the policies were the cause of the current economic failure – It was greedy people and crooks in the banking and financial industries along with the ineptness of the respective congressional oversight committees.
Ciao