Yesterday I had a chance to try the Bose L1's .... WOW !
Immediately I ordered (a pair) of Bose L1's Model 1 basic.

Good choice. I have enjoyed mine for three years without a hitch. If you have not already, take a look at their forum. A friendly and very helpful site.
http://bose.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?s=8206048934&ORIGINAL_REFERRER_URL=http%3A%2F%2Fbose.infopop.cc%2F6%2Fubb.x

Why two?...I though One was sufficient & no need for stereo? now your carrying
8 pieces & 8 covers just for a PA?



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-20-2009).]

In my view L1 consists of a power stand and one loudspeaker (upper and lower section)

I need one L1 for Left and another one for Right.... together being a "stereo-couple" perhaps I'm wrong?

My sub is 15" non-bose (DB_techn)active 800Watts with built-in stereo (adjustable) crossover.

btw It's not 'PA' but 'PAS'



[This message has been edited by kla4 (edited 02-20-2009).]

lets see.....

2 bases....4 poles, 2 subs, 8 separate zippered covers...& so that's 16 pieces plus sub & power cables.....add it all up "just for your PA?" if your a daily & nightly gigging player at different venues I would think this out.

Many players here state no need for "Stereo" with the PAS do a search on the PAS & see what I mean regarding this subject...


But I will agree with you the Tyros 3 sounds AWESOME!



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-20-2009).]

Dnj,
Your only 'point' in this thread seems to be the number of parts (and covers) I have to carry??
At least for me it's obvious that 2 L1's are needed for stereo use...

Bernie9 & Brian:
Thanks for your kind comments/advise, they DO help




[This message has been edited by kla4 (edited 02-20-2009).]

Congratulations on buying the Bose. I've been using one for three years, never needed two systems, and as pointed out above, stereo is a personal thing--your audiences don't care, and most will not benefit from stereo sound. You may want to try using a single unit initially, just to see if it fits your needs.

You're gonna' love what you hear,

Gary

Congratulations on the Bose purchase. Whatever makes us each think their setup sounds great is what matters

The stereo field knock is interesting. In my line of work, not too many people sit behind or beside the speakers, so usually 95% of the audience is in the stereo field. If the room is wider, then widen the speaker distance!

I didn't like the L1 sound (interesting how we are all different). I thought lugging one system was a pain. 2 systems would be out of the question

I personally would not use a mono system, but that's me

GO FOR STERIO!
The sound is so much better...Then if going on a GIG, if you want, just take the single system. That way you can choose...and when in your studio you have the sterio sound.

Maybe you will get a gig in a great place where people will hear the difference? I would.

Lee

Roel....if you gigged like me everyday in & out with time restraints so close it aint funny you would see my point....if you don't gig as vigorously then buy as many PAS units as you need & enjoy....Yes they sound good, but nothing earth shattering compared to any quality TOTL powered speaker system I ever used & not as versatile...just not a good fit for MY needs.
Gary's post says it all.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-20-2009).]

Gary,
Of course I tried playing only one unit but for sure that does not fill my needs. The sound-image is completely different (less complete/wide) and phase canceling occurs because of the L/R sum.
A Tyros (or any other keyboard) needs to be connected/played in stereo, otherwise you lose >25% of the sound quality ..... IMHO
Did you compare stereo/mono with your equipment?

Roel, I agree with you..

I am a Stereo fan myself Roel....but you wouldnt think it matters if you do a search and read the hundreds of users posts on the Stereo subject.

Dnj,
WHAT is your point??
Half of this thread is filled with your (nothing adding) replies....you telling to be the most occupied/experienced entertainer ... I take too much pieces.... advising me to listen to others and change my 'needs'?? Is it THAT hard for you to accept other opinions/views??
Please stop this annoying comments, at least in a thread I started just to share my thoughts .... please?

[This message has been edited by kla4 (edited 02-20-2009).]

What's dont you understand about doing a SZ search this Bose thing has been rehashed, re-argued, so many many times, some love it .....some hate it.......
Roel as expected I see you haven't changed...many newbies don't remember eh?
enjoy your inner anger your not fooling me..



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-20-2009).]

Exactly BBBB Roland handles the phase issues very nicely in my experiences.
If I remember Gary has done some extreme editing to Yammy sounds to rectify these issues?

Every hi-end piece of equipment designed to play stereo looses sound-image quality when played thru MONO speakers .... like a full color HQ picture looses 'color' after conversion to B/W ....

Medium/poor quality pictures lose less 'color' ... get my point?
Dnj's attitude/tone makes me want to quit.
Sorry (to the nice guys)

Unless you are doing a face front ticketed show, most of the target audience wouldn't know or care whether its stereo or mono. They HEAR, they don't listen. They talk over the musicians, they dance to the music.

25% worse in mono...I don;t know how that is quantified. I think its more a psychological issue with the artist. A great Artist with a mono system will work more than a mediocre artist with a Stereo rig..

The idea of the Bose was to carry a full powered PA in the back seat of a "Camry" any one could set up and be playing through in 5 minutes. In that regard it has no peer.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 02-20-2009).]

To be honest, there's not much that the audience cares about one way or the other They don't care whether it's styles or SMF's or mp3's (apparently, we do!). They don't care whether you play any of the parts or all the parts (apparently, we do!). They don't care whether it is stereo or mono (apparently, we do!)...

The thing is, do you lower your act down to the few things that THEY care about, or do you do an act that YOU care about?

I have always thought that, as long as I do an act that makes ME happy, including staging, PA, lights,etc., that should pretty much take care of what makes them happy, too. No matter HOW picky they are. But do an act that panders to their 'lowered expectations' and sooner or later you DO bump into someone with higher standards and fare poorly. Plus, let's face it, the most important person you have to make happy each gig is YOU... you're the only one that HAS to listen to you, your playing, and the PA you play through every single gig. If you don't make yourself happy, how can you make others?

For me, the slight inconvenience of hauling around ONE more speaker is much more than offset by the sonic nirvana of listening to my arranger in stereo. You know... the way the manufacturer made it! If it wasn't important, why do you think THEY bother? They are cutting every corner they CAN get away with!

Sorry I'm late getting back to this thread, but I just finished a job and had to make a quick stop before returning home.

As for MY experience, I A/B tested the Bose L1 against a pair of Barbetta Sona 32SC powered speakers, which I consider excellent, conventional speakers. I also tested it against a pair of Peavey SP5Gs. Bottom line is, there was no comparison. The L1 was much cleaner, crisp, had loads of bottom end, the setup time was considerably faster, and my audiences loved the Bose sound quality.

When it comes to stereo V/S mono, the audiences, as Diki clearly stated, really don't care. They're there to enjoy the music, not have their heads blown off, party, dance, whatever.

As for who hears it and who does not, there is lots of information available about this topic. Essentially, the stereo effect is heard by audience members that are with an equalateral triangle created by the distance between the right and left speakers. Audience members outside that area do not hear stereo, and depending upon your system, the venue configuration, etc.., the overall sound may be dominated by where they are positioned. Those positioned to the right or left of the triangle will predominately hear sounds from that channel. Most audience members will primarily hear mono sounds. The performer, who is usually situated directly between the left and right speakers, however, will overwhelmingly hear stereo.

While phase cancellation has been reported by a couple L1 users, most have not experienced this. It may have something to do with the summation of the channels and various techniques used to combine the left and right outputs.

Additionally, I've heard that the Bose Model II with the Tonematch produces better sound quality from Yamaha's TOTL keyboards than the older L1. I, personally, have not had the opportunity to test this, but hopefully, I will next January at the next Shreveport Jam.

The great thing about your purchase is if you find one works just fine for you, Bose will be more than happy to accept the other unit as a return with no questions asked. They are an outstanding company, their customer service is second to none, and their quality is unsurpassed.

Good Luck on whatever you decide upon,

Gary

Good Lord, if I hear one more inaccurate posting on stereo, I'm gonna go postal!

Look, anyone with a stereo can prove this to themselves. Make a CD with ONE tune done twice. First version stereo, second version mono (any audio editor will do this easily).

Now stand ANYWHERE in your living room, and switch between the two versions. To get the BEST stereo effect, yes, you should sit, stand, dance, whatever, at a point in an equatorial triangle between the speakers. But standing almost anywhere else in the room, short of right next to one of the speakers, you WILL hear a difference between mono and stereo.

The idea that unless you stand in that one 'sweet spot' you won't hear it at all is simply ridiculous...

I would not even consider NOT using sterio! My god do you guys want to go back to the 1950's?

It does not sound as good...period. And if does not sound as good why would I want it?

I play for myself first...and I care about sound quality. I am not inspired by a TOTL arranger sounding half ass.
A lot of the sounds I use a lot use dynamic panning L to R...how does that sound in Mono? Like crap. How would the Leslie FX work right with one channel? NOT. They use sterio to make the effect work.

If you just want to go out and get by as easy as possible, put the money in your pocket...it's time for a new profession.

I have heard recently a mono sound setup and it did not sound very good at all. Maybe the audience doesn't care but I do.

Lee S.

Man ..... Has this topic been beat to death or what!!!
To each his own!!! Do what ever turns you on and be happy!!!
AMEN!!!!

I believe that each of us is free to chose what we want to use...

I simply hate to see misinformation and half truths bandied about as 'fact', just to bolster an argument. I've used mono PA's, I've used stereo PA's... This has NO bearing on what stereo actually IS

DITTO! I rest my case.

Gary

No one is arguing there is no difference. Of course there a difference. Different sound is arriving to the ear at different times. Theres the perceptible difference...

The argument is whether the difference is better in a live venue. There is a reason professional engineers and Producers mix and master in the "sweet spot" and would never ever think of doing it off axis.

I think you were right the first time. if one personally needs all the bells and whistles and stereo etc to feel good about their performance then they are doing the right thing. For them.

To state others are delivering substandard performance because they don't believe stereo is all that and the benefits of a wide consistent area of sonic bliss is a better choice for themselves than a stereo sound field.

Others feel just as relevant and especially do not feel they are lowering their "standards" performing with a Bose System in mono......quite the contrary in fact.

We actually believe the ENTIRE audience is getting a better sonic experience then we had with the Mackie/JBL MR15 System in Stereo. Not just those in the front and center. Everyone hears exactly the same mix as we do with the Bose System. No hot spots, or harsh spots.


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 02-20-2009).]

I agree However if you are going to go with the Bose in mono get the Model II WITH the Tone Natch.IF you want stereo the Mod I will be fine. One of the Casino Boats here uses TWO model I systems outside on the water and have been since last Summer with no ill effect.
We will never to go back to a conventional system ......speaker poles, cable runs, xovers, big box Subwoofers. monitoring systems,large heavy boxes with 12" or 15" drivers,hand carts...A truck...

I will also bet your system gets some positive conversational attention by members of the audience,




[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 02-20-2009).]

FWIW, I used the L1 with both the G70 and the PA800, and the only thing I noticed was a muffling of the main Piano sound on the G70, but ONLY when it was being played solo.

In amongst styles it wasn't as noticeable, and I found I could brighten it up some with the EQ.
And in any case the G70 had other pianos that sounded good without "tweaking".

No issues at all with the PA800, and it (the L1) sounds exceptional with the TC Helicon Harmony M.

Dennis

PS: Not disputing anything anyone has said, just posting my experience with the L1.

The "issue" with the Yamaha and mono is way over exaggerated. The benefits of an even nearly 180 degree wide dispersion of crystal clear sound far out weigh any supposed sonic deficiencies of the summing of a stereo output. Not to mention a CENTER, ARTIST FOCUSED sound source.

Another issue I have with OMBs and Stereo is I believe it further separates the player from the music source. If one is hearing separate parts from widely spaced speakers it tends to become more "karaoke like" where Stereo mixes are routinely played. Mono always appears to come from the center where the musician actually is. Thats why the Bose Pole placed just behind the artist is effective at focusing the attention TO the artist and not a "drum set 20 feet wide, or a guitar lead seemingly coming from ten feet right of the Artist and a sax "player" ten feet to the left left"

With that kind of disconnect, People will surely will ask "if there is a certain song in that thing" LOL




[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 02-21-2009).]

OK, back OT.... (or what the topic has morphed into )

Personally, I don't use stereo to present an overly wide image to the audience. I keep most everything panned up the center, and only wide pan things that are doubled. I usually pan my drums back towards center, so you DON'T get the '40 foot wide drummer' syndrome.

But one thing I think that really improves with the width is the effects. The reverbs and choruses sound great spread as wide as they can (while the main sound is still fairly centered). And wide spread synth sounds. The spread on these can make a Pink Floyd tune HUGE! And this is apparent pretty much anywhere in the room, other than with your ear stuck in one of the stacks.

Not that I use stacks, anyway! A couple of 12" JBL SR's on poles and a sub, and a duo act usually mean that the speaker system is closer than most band PA's. I might go further apart this year, after buying a pair of Mackie SRM150's as stage monitors (they mount on the mike stands), but I'll have to see if having them spread wider helps or hurts...

I play outdoors quite a bit, so having a certain amount of realistic space around the instruments and vocals is needed when you don't have any room ambiance to deal with...

I am still not sure what the storm in the teacup is all about. Let's face it. What's the difference between a mono PA and a stereo one? ONE MORE SPEAKER. That's it. Not exactly a ground shattering, back breaking addition.

Oh, unless you have a Bose PAS, where the additional speaker turns into almost an entire second PA, with multiple parts, bases, subs, (and an almost doubling of price) whatever... Maybe this, and not the sonic difference between mono and stereo is what is REALLY turns PAS users off stereo?

I agree. I've learned a lot from nearly everyone that frequented this forum, I've met several members in person, enjoyed their music, and over these many years I've been able to help as many of them as they've helped me. I'll look in from time to time, but for the most part I'll spend more time working on my boat, getting ready for the sailing season, and playing music. For those that need to get in touch with me, you have my email address.

Goodbye,

Gary

[This message has been edited by travlin'easy (edited 02-21-2009).]

Just played my first keyboard gig (S900)through my Bose Model II. Didn't care for the sound except for the clean bass. Much prefer my two Roland amps, along with a small sub. However, the Bose is great on solo gigs on guitar. It's nice to have options, depending on the gig and instruments played.

Congrats on your first gig hope it went well for you?.....do you think MONO phase cancelation was the culprit on why you didn/t enjoy the sound on the bose....or?

Saddens me when Gary (of all people) says goodbye and no one seems to give a damn.
Sad.

Gary, I would like to think that you will reconsider. Your presence here has made this forum much more civilized than it would be otherwise.

Happy sailing!

Well put Trident - I wonder how many others feel the same as Gary.

hammer

I have thought many times about leaving this forum completely, for the same reasons.
However, I refuse to let a couple of guys with bad attitudes run me off, after I've been here since the inception.
Normally, I choose just to ignore what they say and try to stay positive.
As for the subject of this thread, once again the people who don't have a Bose system are lambasting it, and the ones who do have one love it.
If you want my opinions use the Search feature. I'm not going to say the same things over, and over, and over and . . . well you get the point.
DonM

**I've Just read the last few posts - been busy gigging etc**

Gary, if it means anything coming from me (and it probably doesn't) I too, am sorry to see you go.

If it's something I've said in this Thread, then - to YOU - I unreservedly apologise.

Please reconsider.

Cheers.

On the subject of Gary leaving, that is a loss for sure. The good news is I know another forum where Gary spends time, you can bet I'll look for his helpful advice there.

I'm at a loss why people don't seem to respect each other.
Life is too short to get into contests, there's enough of that outside in the real world where I spend 9 to 10 hours each day called my office.

This forum is a place where I come to relax, enjoy and learn a few things from seasoned pros and amateurs ( and I've learned plenty here and made some good friends in the process too).

I love my Bose L1, s900 and Pa2xPro, they make me happy they make my audiences happy that's all that matters to me.

Everyone comes & goes here time after time in a hissy fit....but after a cool down period all is back to normal...no need to worry unless your scott yee just do a hissy fit search here thru the years....& lets not for get when everyone turned & sand blasted me last year also
after all it's all about arranger KB's right?

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-22-2009).]

I feel the same way...Gary has always been a great help to me on this forum, and fortunately we also converse privately, so I'm glad I will always benefit from his substantial knowledge and many years of "in the trenches" experience.

Thankfully there are other forums where he contributes his time and knowledge...it's just unfortunate that SZ, one of my favorite sites, will lose somebody of his caliber.

The old saying, "win an argument...lose a friend" applies a lot to SZ...I am no less guilty of wanting/needing to win...probably due more to my innate insecurities than actual healthy competitiveness...I do know my pride gets the better of me at times when I know I should just "let it go".

I don't like to see anyone leave the arranger forums...I look back at when I first got on the Internet and the joy I felt at finding a group of people who played the same instrument as I did...who got the same mixed reactions from players of more so called "legitimate" instruments...who dealt with the same issues of competing against DJ's and Karaoke...who actually shared tips on how to use styles more effectively and emulate instruments more realistically.

There seems to be less comradery on SZ than on the manufacturer specific arranger sites...but that's the nature of the beast, I guess, and although there is a vast range of useful knowledge among the members, it has a hard time getting by all the belly bumping.

Instead of sticking together and helping one another in this dwindling (and perhaps sometimes questionable) art form, we behave like a big dysfunctional family, and destroy ourselves from within.

Ian

IMHO,
There is way too many personal attacks here! It's only a few, but always the same ones. Thanbks God we do not have that crap on the Korg PA forum. It's a very friendly place.

Opposing opinions, stating your position is OK to me, but personal attacks & fussing is counterproductive.

It's a great forum, I enjoy it and value what I learn here...but, some folks need to be sent to the corner by the teacher.

IAN WELCOME BACK! So glad the surgery went ok.

Lee S.

Thanks very much for the kind words, Lee...I'm doing very well, and getting in more playing time with each passing day.

Ian the Grateful

There are some other quite important forums I will no longer go to and participate any more... Steinberg's Cubase forum is one of many. They make this place look like a seminary! Check out this one... http://www.cubase.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=112312

On the whole, we've got it pretty good. It's just that a few people need to understand that arguing against their personal choice of equipment is NOT the same as calling them an "indescribable fartknocker", "a total and utter clown" and "If you stumble in, ranting about some crap in your screaming mongspeak then you're going to get treated like a moron", and shouldn't be used as an excuse to become bitter and personal in reply.

Reasonable people can agree to argue reasonably... but do we want to devolve into THIS

Diki, personal attacks and verbal aggression come in many forms, not just overt or obvious, but also implied or passive - as you have just proven with your above post.

What I said about you has obviously hit home, as you wrote some "pretty choice words" in reply to me, hence the removal of your posts as well as mine.

ALL of us can be obviously angry/hurt/proud and say things around here that shouldn't (or sometimes should!) be said. It's not just one or two, or continually the same ones. There are more "verbal" or "fiery" members of this forum that get more attention then some, but the same potential is simmering away just under the surface of all members - we wouldn't be human if that wasn't the case.

But that's the whole point. We do NOT agree with each other... much of the time!

But isn't there a way to do it without DIRECT attack? Have we GOT to tread on eggshells for fear of someone flaming us? I have no intention of doing so, for one...

Bottom line is, usually, the flamer comes off as the bigger wanker, and it's not exactly keeping me up at night..

But really, do we HAVE to go down that route? If we are capable of polite face to face communication, how come we can't manage it in print?

Yes, there IS a way to do it without direct attack - and it's happening on this forum (and most others) all the time. That's the Passive aggressiveness I was referring to in my previous post.

The answer?

There is none - hence my last line:

"- we wouldn't be human if that wasn't the case."

Oh btw, that thread in the Cubase forum is (one of) the worst I've ever read!

If anyone on these boards wants to feel better about themselves as a person - man - read THAT thread!

Hey Gary,

Don't you dare drop out, that's an order! I think we should have a jam on your boat

zuki

There is much less chance of arguements and posturing arising on forums where everyone uses the same board. There is already a common understanding and agreement on many features.

It's much different when users promote their personal choice of gear and sometimes even put down the choices of others.

But there has GOT to be a fundamental difference between putting someone's equipment down, and just plain putting THEM down...

I guess I keep forgetting just how emotionally attached some people can get to a piece of gear that they are going to happily sell in a couple of years and buy something else!

Are you putting yourself in that category with your G70 Diki?

Dennis

PS: I meant from the emotional attachment viewpoint, not the sellig in a couple of years

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 02-24-2009).]

Dennis, do you know the number of times my poor little G70 has been slammed on this forum?

Do you ever recall me turning round and attacking the poster personally (unless personally insulted myself)? Or do I merely stick to talking about the G70? Sure, I can be a bit sarcastic from time to time. But is that the same as simply calling the poster some of that vitriol from the Cubase thread, or even some of the personal knocks I've taken here out of the blue...?

Because, if it IS, heaven help us all...

There IS a huge difference between 'passive' aggressiveness and the real thing. If the radical Muslims were passively aggressive, the Towers would still be standing It's when people don't CARE about the difference that bad things happen. I refuse to believe that anyone on this forum is so uneducated they don't KNOW the difference between a personal attack and lively debate. But it is apparent that some simply do not care...

`


[This message has been edited by mc (edited 02-24-2009).]

[This message has been edited by mc (edited 02-24-2009).]

Diki, I would've thought that Gary's (possible) leaving would've given you pause for thought enough to leave this alone for now.
I also think what Nigel just posted was a point well said.

If I was drinking Coffee at the time I read:
"Sure, I can be a bit sarcastic from time to time."
I assure you it would've been spurted all over my Computer Monitor in laughter.

Passive aggressiveness, be it in tone, words, or deeds, still comes from the same place as overt aggressiveness, it just manifests itself differently. A friendship, or Marriage, or ANY relationship (be it two people, or a group of people, e.g. a family) can still be poisoned just as surely by a consistent and persistent attitude or tone, as well as by a malicious or deadly physical act - and often it is more torturous in it's own way - as it usually takes much longer.

What doe& all this crap have to do with a Tyros 3 & a bose pas?

Sorry Gary, but I won't be checking in at that Yamaha site...If there is something you want to tell me,,you will have to call me...

No I don't, and I don't think you would either.

Dennis

I fear for some of these delicate little flowers who can't take a bit of knockabout on a forum. The internet is no place for them.

It's not the "delicate little flowers" we should be concerned about....it's the noxious weeds that seem to suddenly pop up as soon as they've gone.

Let us spray...



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 02-24-2009).]

I thought Gary was at the Bose Forum????