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#261551 - 04/13/09 10:18 AM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 664
Loc: Ontario Canada
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#261576 - 04/15/09 10:27 AM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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Originally posted by Fran Carango: When the new Ketron hits the streets, they will have buyers....buyers that can afford to purchase.....and not the folks that are not candidates, financially...so they rather knock the marketing policy... Seems about as likely as landing Michael Jackson a job as a mall Santa. Ketron have clearly made a mess of the launch, even worse than Roland did with their G70, and that cost the latter a bunch of sales. Why would a pro want a Ketron arranger that won't play professional quality chords without sounding like the hybrid (audio + midi) it is? The guitar audio tracks that add midi bits for complex chords sound simply awful....they are supposed to integrate seamlessly, but they are about as subtle as a smiley face lapel pin on an undertaker’s suit. Good luck, Ketron...you're going to need it. Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#261581 - 04/15/09 12:33 PM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Senior Member
Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 3131
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#261583 - 04/15/09 01:42 PM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Senior Member
Registered: 11/24/99
Posts: 1675
Loc: Milford, CT, USA
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I have the pleasure to play and work on a Tyros 3 Korg PA2xpro Mediastation G70 SD1+ SD5 They all have pros and cons. to dismiss a keyboard on 5 minutes of playing or a demo seems to me a little rushed. I agree about timing and some hardware options that should have been upgraded but overall, an arranger should sound like a band and have useable styles and sounds for many genres of music, if you need to add styles or voices it should be by choice and not necessity. I have always favored the styles and combined overall sounds of Ketrons when in an arrangerment or midi file, hated their interface and Operating system. So hopefully when I get to truely play the Audya I will be happy. I talked to Ted from CMC yesterday and he said they were not in as of yet, and he expected them hopefully next week. ------------------ www.AudioworksCT.com 203.876.1133
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#261594 - 04/20/09 10:48 AM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Member
Registered: 03/04/06
Posts: 533
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Originally posted by Ketron_AJ: leezone
You are right - I am busy creating some of the new Dance, Latin, Caribbean and African Styles. These should give AUDYA a notch in the other parts of the world (or to those who play that style of music) - e.g. our friends in Portugal!
Once a fixed list becomes available, we'll post it on our website together with OS 2.0.
Thanks,
AJ AJ, May I ask in what country the Dance Styles were created for the SD5. I'm wondering if it's Italy as they really have a good handle on "basic" dance styles. I'm also wondering if it's possible for you to listen to arranger keyboards from 10-20 years ago and duplicate what you hear on them. They were "basic" patterns but adorned enough not to sound "dry." I'm talking about patterns like Fox Trot, Big Band, all Latin styles. waltzes, French waltz's, Marches, Paso Dobles, 6/8 time Styles, etc. If I'm correct there are many arranger players like myself who just want your basic styles dressed up enough to sound musical. One thing that I have clearly noticed is every time new styles come out in a new keyboard, the creator tries to make them different and ends up making them too "complex" just to be different. Sometimes "newer" in not always better! Lucky
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#261600 - 04/22/09 09:44 PM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Senior Member
Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 1144
Loc: Staten Island, NYC
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And another thing, i am always honest and i pick no sides thats why i always sound arogant and rebelious, i dont care if i work for Korg or Ketron, if they have flaws i will tell it like it is, i dont care. As far as the Audya goes i still stay on what i said, did it happen yet? NO! Will it happen? YES! When? I dont know! Does the Audya sound great in General? YES! Does it sound great for me? NO!!! IT SUCKS!!! Why? Cuz i cant do anything with it what i want, all i can use is whats inside...see??? I am not affraid to tell it...is the technology as it is now up to date? HELL NO!!! A stupid KORG PA500 which is 1300$ does at least 10 times more then Audya... but for now...tomorow? We have hopes and promises. But its still a good machine. The sad thing is, a machine 2-3 years old (SD5) has nothing newer then what a 20 years old machine had (KORG M1) or (KORG I3) and actually did more. To say something to the people that deal with it, create it, invest in it, design it, they will say...ah its a good machine, it will make it...HOW??? I personally dont accept a 5000$ either, i will, when they give me EVERYTHING Korg PA2X offers plus another 80% of different features, extra...does it have that? Not even 50% of PA2X...I am not in love with Ketron nor my father is the owner but i still own 11 Korg machines and forever i will...why??? They made me do so, same as the guy today made me buy Parfumes from him...after the Pizza with LeeZone in Manhattan...in the rain...
[This message has been edited by Nedim (edited 04-22-2009).]
_________________________
Cubase 8.5 Pro. Windows 7 X64. ASUS SaberTooth X99. Intel I7 5820K. ASUS GTX 960 Strix OC 2GB. 4x8 GB G.SKILL. 2 850 PRO 256GB SSDs. 1 850 EVO 1TB SSD. Acustica: Nebula Server 3 Ultimate, Murano, Magenta 3, Navy, Titanium.
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#261601 - 04/22/09 10:13 PM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14242
Loc: NW Florida
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In which case, perhaps next time, Nedim, you might reserve your adulation for a new, untried arranger until AFTER you get it and give it a serious workout... Oh, and you MIGHT consider cutting a little more slack to those of us capable of spotting the 'gotchas' BEFORE it comes out from simply reading about the specs... In the light of how you feel now, do you consider some of your rabid and borderline insulting comments from a recent months perhaps just a BIT premature? Imagine, if you will, some jumped up fanboy starts insulting YOU, now, for expressing the same reservations about the Audya now, that we had weeks (months) ago? I mean, SURELY the Audya HAS to be the greatest, yada yada yada? ALL it's flaws will doubtless be fixed (despite the same flaws remaining unfixed on SD-1 etc.), how DARE you imply it is no good, blabber blabber blabber... This is a great forum, and all that, but coming in guns blazing can only end in you shooting your own foot off if you aren't cautious. Personally, I tend to view ALL manufacturer generated hype as dubious at best, and so far, have rarely been proved wrong! Jumping in and 'defending' a manufacturer for their hype and marketing exaggeration rarely turns out to be a good move. Perhaps now you can move over to the "realists'" side of the aisle, rather than the "optimists'"... you'll find plenty of company
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#261603 - 04/22/09 11:06 PM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
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Hi Lucky, excuse me for butting in, but I think AJ may be reffering to modern dance styles ie Techno , rap etc
On my SD1+ "Dance" is modern dance the Audya may differ? ,
Sounds to me like Technics type styles may have suited for the type of music you play. I had at least 20 foxtrots for my Technics keyboards, plus heaps of the other type styles you mentioned. Technote created dozens of style disks.
Technote, company that created Technic styles, actually ended up doing the same styles for Roland. Don't know how good they sound on Roland Keyboards, as I don't own one. I nearly did a Roland though, just to get the styles back & save me having to convert the ones I wanted.
best wishes Rikki [QUOTE]Originally posted by Lucky2Bhere: [b] AJ,
[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 04-23-2009).]
[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 04-23-2009).]
_________________________
best wishes Rikki 🧸
Korg PA5X 88 note SX900 Band in a Box 2022
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#261608 - 04/23/09 09:33 PM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Member
Registered: 03/04/06
Posts: 533
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Originally posted by rikkisbears: Hi Lucky, excuse me for butting in, but I think AJ may be reffering to modern dance styles ie Techno , rap etc
On my SD1+ "Dance" is modern dance the Audya may differ? ,
Sounds to me like Technics type styles may have suited for the type of music you play. I had at least 20 foxtrots for my Technics keyboards, plus heaps of the other type styles you mentioned. Technote created dozens of style disks.
Technote, company that created Technic styles, actually ended up doing the same styles for Roland. Don't know how good they sound on Roland Keyboards, as I don't own one. I nearly did a Roland though, just to get the styles back & save me having to convert the ones I wanted.
best wishes Rikki
Hi Rikki, Yes…I did read AJ’s post again….he IS talking about modern dance styles. This short dialogue we’ve had is starting to make me realize it’s also the dance styles that are problematic for me. I need really “dry” styles that I can build on during performance. I have a Roland E-300 which was very advanced for it’s day. It has very basic styles (but convincing) that I can start out with and then add 4 sets of “layers” of drum variations to the SAME basic beat. It works well for me. The thing I have noticed over the years is that with each generation of keyboard styles, they HAVE to make a new pattern (you can’t sell a new keyboard with an old patch (dance style). And over the generations they lost sight of the basic dance style pattern. I found this noticeably so with the Fox Trot and “Tango’s.” I like tango’s and many other basic dances, particularly Latin. Ketron is still somewhat traditional, but I found the Korg to be bordering on overkill with their drum patterns. I have hundreds of great dance styles for my Roland. Many I bought and many were downloaded from the Net. Also I have styles that fit one situation only…example: Beach Boys/Fun, Fun, Fun, Beatles/Michelle/ Yesterday, Jerry Lee Lewis/ Whole Lot of Shakin & Great Balls of Fire, etc. I would really miss all of these. When I get time I’m going to have to look into whether or not I can convert these styles fairly easy to a new keyboard format. No one responded to my post about "who (or what country) makes up the drum patterns for the various keyboards." Or HOW they get made up. Do you have any ideas on this? I wish I had the time to do proper keyboard shopping, but in the meantime no one has complained yet about my E-300! Lucky [This message has been edited by Lucky2Bhere (edited 04-23-2009).]
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#261615 - 05/01/09 05:21 PM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14242
Loc: NW Florida
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Why would ADDING to a style collection ruin anything...? Thing is, other than legacy US styles, few arrangers have anything that could remotely be called 'contemporary' US material. Alternative, hiphop, emo, modern R&B, zydeco, all of these styles are as poorly represented as the styles from Mozambique, or Sierra Leone or any of the countries Ketron are franticly trying to cover. However, I'd be willing to bet that there are WAY more people in the US capable of affording an Audya, if only it addressed THEIR needs. But I'm not talking oldies and bigband... I'm talking the same kind of stuff you can find in a MotifXS, or M3, or FantomG. You know... keyboards that actually DO sell in large numbers I'd be willing to bet that the zouk styles will sound very contemporary (by zouk standards). Why not try doing that to US styles as well. You will be amazed at how many more you sell, if you style them for the majority of people that buy keyboards, not the minority (which is what arranger users right now are)... Without even TRYING to break into the sounds and styles in modern WS's, you basically condemn any modern arranger to a dwindling niche market, and basic irrelevance and obscurity.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#261619 - 05/02/09 04:56 AM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Member
Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
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Originally posted by Diki: Why would ADDING to a style collection ruin anything...?
Thing is, other than legacy US styles, few arrangers have anything that could remotely be called 'contemporary' US material. Alternative, hiphop, emo, modern R&B, zydeco, all of these styles are as poorly represented as the styles from Mozambique, or Sierra Leone or any of the countries Ketron are franticly trying to cover. However, I'd be willing to bet that there are WAY more people in the US capable of affording an Audya, if only it addressed THEIR needs. But I'm not talking oldies and bigband... I'm talking the same kind of stuff you can find in a MotifXS, or M3, or FantomG.
You know... keyboards that actually DO sell in large numbers
I'd be willing to bet that the zouk styles will sound very contemporary (by zouk standards). Why not try doing that to US styles as well. You will be amazed at how many more you sell, if you style them for the majority of people that buy keyboards, not the minority (which is what arranger users right now are)...
Without even TRYING to break into the sounds and styles in modern WS's, you basically condemn any modern arranger to a dwindling niche market, and basic irrelevance and obscurity.Arranger manufacturers are faced with the chicken and the egg scenario. Which one comes first? Do you make contemporary styles for a TOTL arranger first then hope the market buys it? Or, do you make sure you have the market then make the contemporary styles for that market. If manufacturers are showing that arranger sales are low, that younger persons don’t buy arrangers, then what would be the incentive for a manufacture to make an arranger with contemporary styles? Where as the persons who buy arrangers are the ones who use and play traditional music. A manufacturer would want to “take care” of the market that has supported their product. Manufacturers are very reluctant to expand their market (Just look at Yamaha and the 76 key arranger market). You know style making cost. It will come down to which one a manufacturer believes comes first; the chicken or the egg.
_________________________
TTG
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#261620 - 05/02/09 06:35 AM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Senior Member
Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 1144
Loc: Staten Island, NYC
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To mention another thing in here, which is a big reason of why: Us, people that actually devellop styles for companies, we charge a lot of money. Its not easy to create one style, its expensive, try calculating 30 style by 450-500$ each.
_________________________
Cubase 8.5 Pro. Windows 7 X64. ASUS SaberTooth X99. Intel I7 5820K. ASUS GTX 960 Strix OC 2GB. 4x8 GB G.SKILL. 2 850 PRO 256GB SSDs. 1 850 EVO 1TB SSD. Acustica: Nebula Server 3 Ultimate, Murano, Magenta 3, Navy, Titanium.
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#261622 - 05/02/09 08:45 AM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 2417
Loc: CA
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"Oasys dropped half price, here in NYC new goes for around 4500-5000$...76 Keys." That's not quite a half price drop Nedim. Originally the Oasys 76 went for 8 Grand even. Half price would be 4 Grand even. It might be worth snatching one up though, at that price. But you have to consider there will be NO more support for the Oasys since it has been discontinued for almost a year now. Here is the reason the Oasys went the way of the Dinosaurs. It was TOO EXPENSIVE, AND the open architecture aspect of it was incomplete and/or archaic in my opinion. Plus the HUGE consideration, that the Oasys didn't sell near well enough for Korg to continue to put R&D into it and thus they discontinued the Oasys line altogether. Believe me, if Korg would have sold "enough" of the Oasys's, even at that ridiculously high price tag of $8,500/88/$8,000/76, Korg would STILL be making the Oasys as we speak. In fact, an Oasys "II" would most likely have already been released by now. But people have MANY, MANY, MANY, "OTHER" keyboard options available to them, without necessarily having to empty their bank accounts or max their credit cards for the privilege of owning one. And the *bang for buck* for the Audya is a similar scenario in my opinion. Why pay $5,000 *plus* for a 'crippled' Audya when you can turn around and buy a fully functional Korg Pa2XPRO and have an extra (plus or minus) $2,000 left over, to stick back in your pocket for a rainy day?? PLEASE!!, no flames guys and gals. These are only 'my' observations and opinion. I realize Ketron is busy with OS 2.0 which "should" shore up the Audya with much needed enhancements and other improvements as well too hopefully. If OS 2.0 turns out to be the bees knees of Audya Operating System updates, then it very well could definitely, and significantly, increase the WOW factor of the Audya - to where it might actually then be worth the "arm and leg" Ketron is charging for it. Needless to say, we will have to wait a while for OS 2.0 to roll out the door (hopefully not 3 more years though right? ) - and see if that will indeed be the case or not. In other words, will the Audya actually (and finally) be worth its salt or not? Again, my opinion(s).. so please bear with me and try to respect my own personal observations and/or opinion(s) about the sky high priced Audya, okay? >> Even though I realize some of you may be chomping at the bit to unleash your flaming arrows full of fire and brimstone and directed directly at you know who. All the best, Mike
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Mackie HR824 MKII Studio Monitors, Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro Mixer (made in USA), Cakewalk Sonar Platinum, Shure SM58 vocal mic.
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#261623 - 05/02/09 09:04 AM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Member
Registered: 07/17/01
Posts: 870
Loc: New York
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Originally posted by Diki: Why would ADDING to a style collection ruin anything...?
Thing is, other than legacy US styles, few arrangers have anything that could remotely be called 'contemporary' US material. Alternative, hiphop, emo, modern R&B, zydeco, all of these styles are as poorly represented as the styles from Mozambique, or Sierra Leone or any of the countries Ketron are franticly trying to cover. However, First of all, styles like hip-hop, rap are forever changing and whatever any keyboard develops it will probably be outdated by the time the keyboard is released. Second I can't explain it but I don't see younger generation ever using arrangers for rap, hiphop, etc, regardless is the styles are good or not. Most of the younger generation here in the states only use arrangers if they come from ethnic backgrounds and they play ethnic music like Italian, Portuguese, Spanish, Polish, etc. I haven't found any keyboard company that will put out any decent rap, etc styles so why should it be Ketron. There specialty has alway been styles from all ethnic groups back to the MS50 days and been going strong since. "all of these styles are as poorly represented as the styles from Mozambique, or Sierra Leone or any of the countries Ketron are franticly trying to cover" That's totally un-true, almost all the ethnic styles that ketron develops are on the mark. Their Latin is the best hands down of any keyboard. They released some African styles that can with XD9 as a user style that was great and no other keyboard company even thought of providing anything from the region of the world. [This message has been edited by mc (edited 05-02-2009).]
_________________________
Ketron X1 (Oldie but Goodie)
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#261625 - 05/02/09 03:58 PM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14242
Loc: NW Florida
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The chicken and the egg? Hardly... Arranger manufacturers already have their current demographic well and truly covered. What remains to be seen is whether one of them has the foresight to try to EXPAND the demographic. Because the elderly OMB is hardly a growing concern. As traditional organ sales has shown us, when you pin your sales model on a dwindling, aging market segment, all you can do is diminish. And eventually all but disappear. Ketron, because of the audio drum loop feature, have an opportunity to produce styles that transcend the built-in drum kits. And to do them quickly (while the sounds and styles are still contemporary). While they appear to be willing to put the work in to provide CONTEMPORARY ethnic music styles for niche users, I ask again... Why not tap that vast ETHNIC American market ( ) as well? And don't think for one minute that the Ndomolo and Zouk styles are as dated as most US styles are. I would be very surprised to find that out. All we are asking for is US styles as contemporary as their African, or Portuguese counterparts... Mysteriously, the style makers seem to have no problem keeping up with the ethnic music trends. Why should it be any harder keeping up with US trends..? Ketron seem somehow able to afford the cost of expanding the style library for these niche markets. All I have said is, if making styles that are modern for THOSE markets makes sense, why would making them for the much more affluent US market NOT make equal sense?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#261626 - 05/02/09 05:16 PM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Senior Member
Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 1144
Loc: Staten Island, NYC
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That should still show you something and thats that there is no arranger market in the US as it is somewhere else, those companies are not stupid that work that way, trust me, i worked for few of them on few projects, i know personally how they approach at this. We can scream as much as we want WE ARE AMERICANS WE ARE THE GREATEST but for arranger market we cant even compete to the poorest east european country, whichever it is. Its reality, they know what they are doing, they go where the money are, there is no money and sales for them in USA. Now you gonna ask me why i said that about us Americans above, you know exactly why, thats how your post sounds like, like we are the stronger market for arrangers or biggest and you still know that we are probably the smallest. They wont create nothing for USA, it is a waste of investement for them, they wont sell here, its not as big as other places, Portugal itself can cover the whole US with arrangers, forget the rest of them. Why do you think everything goes there first and we are always the last thing in the picture about anything? Cuz we aint that great as we think we are...we are just big on words which they dont really care, they want big sales and money which is not happening for them in the USA but in other countries.
_________________________
Cubase 8.5 Pro. Windows 7 X64. ASUS SaberTooth X99. Intel I7 5820K. ASUS GTX 960 Strix OC 2GB. 4x8 GB G.SKILL. 2 850 PRO 256GB SSDs. 1 850 EVO 1TB SSD. Acustica: Nebula Server 3 Ultimate, Murano, Magenta 3, Navy, Titanium.
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#261627 - 05/02/09 05:33 PM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14242
Loc: NW Florida
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Sorry, Nedim, Take another read of my post. Slowly.
I never said that the US is the largest arranger market. I said that, with all the wealth over here, it is POTENTIALLY the largest market. But until arranger manufacturers start addressing OUR needs as diligently as they do their current, most successful markets, it is NEVER going to grow...
You can hardly expect Americans to start using a product that doesn't meet their needs, just so that, in the future, the manufacturer MIGHT get around to it. Remember the 'Field of Dreams'...
If you build it, they will come.
They sure as hell aren't going to come until you do...
The failure of the arranger market in the US has nothing whatsoever to do with American players. We have the same number of fingers, toes and ears as players anywhere else in the world. The failure lies SQUARELY at the door of the arranger manufacturers, who appear to be more concerned with pandering to small niche markets that already exist, than trying to address the needs of what could POTENTIALLY be their largest market.
God never worried about the 'chicken and the egg'. He simply made the egg. And the chicken followed.
If arranger manufacturers never even TRY, the chicken will NEVER appear. Sure, it costs money to make the egg. But there's a boatload of people buying keyboards in the US. Don't they want a piece of that action? Basically, the US share of the arranger market will never grow, until the arranger manufacturers make something that they like.
The ball is in THEIR court, not ours.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#261628 - 05/02/09 09:09 PM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Senior Member
Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 1144
Loc: Staten Island, NYC
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You are completely right about that but people and bussineses tend to go after whats already there, not to start to create something anew when there is something already. Take me as an example, my heritage is Turkish, i grew up in Yugoslavia, today i make my living out of the Arab and Greek musicians and lately Westerners in general. When i saw that happening at the begining i left my own community, my own crowd and market, i saw i was good at this new communities and then i started working mostly for them, to satisfy them and not my own community for which i can probably do better things. But i decided to leave them instead of investing in them and then waiting for something to happen. Once in a while i PopUp with something new and good for my community but they are nowhere, its dead, same this with US in the US, maybe they dont wanna take a chance, it still goes back to the chicken and egg, who Starts first, WE or THEM? In my case was THEM and i just followed them, till today i dont know if i was the chicken or the egg...
_________________________
Cubase 8.5 Pro. Windows 7 X64. ASUS SaberTooth X99. Intel I7 5820K. ASUS GTX 960 Strix OC 2GB. 4x8 GB G.SKILL. 2 850 PRO 256GB SSDs. 1 850 EVO 1TB SSD. Acustica: Nebula Server 3 Ultimate, Murano, Magenta 3, Navy, Titanium.
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#261630 - 05/03/09 01:33 AM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14242
Loc: NW Florida
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The difference, spalding, is the control paradigm... For instance, on the MotifXS, probably the most 'chord following' of all the WS's, there is no way to trigger loops as fills in the arranger sense. That is, you can, on an arranger, drop into a fill DURING a bar, and everything will stay in sync. On the MoXS, you either have to cue the fill up a bar in advance, or you are out of luck. What arrangers have is a very natural, musical approach to triggering loops (that's all styles are, really - little MIDI or audio loops that follow the chords), but we have no really contemporary sounds and styles. The WS's, OTOH, have very contemporary styles (that's all loops are, really ) but a completely unintuitive way of triggering them. First keyboard that combines the two cleans up, in my opinion. It can be an arranger company if they make the effort. Somehow, though, I doubt it. And next to 'home organs' from the sixties and seventies, in the Museum of Obsolete Instruments pretty soon will lie the 'arranger'. From Nedim's reply, it is obvious that arranger manufacturers are only concerned with their existing markets. While WS manufacturers are concerned with innovating and GROWING their market... And it weill only take ONE WS to adopt the arranger control paradigm (software loop players like Live already allow you to drop into fill loops like arrangers do) and everybody will drop arrangers faster than a hot potato... Trust me Nedim... your market did NOT come looking for you. YOU went to them, provided the service, and THEN they came. That's how it works. Nobody buys a truck if they want a minivan. You have to build the minivan before they will buy it. And the arranger manufacturers have to build a contemporary arranger, before that segment of the market (young musicians with money$$$ ) will buy one. You can't expect them to buy things better suited to their grandparents, and just HOPE that better styles are developed...
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#261631 - 05/03/09 02:13 AM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5375
Loc: English Riviera, UK
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This is the way I see it.
Although slow, manufactures do keep an eye on the market, and if they just looked at this forum they would all write off combining Arp's with Arranger control as a total waste of resources. (Fortunately they take a much wider view)
Why
Well what you are on about, can already be done on open keyboards like the Mediastation, (Including Audio) but a lot of folks here that say they want the Arp's and Arranger facilities combined, are the first to run the keyboard that can do it down. (Remember whatever features are available on hardware are also available in software, which can be loaded into open keyboards like the Mediastation to give you exactly you want)
The future you so crave has been here for years, but few of you are prepared to leave your current comfort arranger zone and embrace it, and because of this the big boys see no market that they can make money in.
The manufactures (Particularly smaller ones) provide all sorts of forward thinking tools, however it’s up to the uses to get off their backsides (Butt) and create the market for them, not the other way round.
Regards
Bill
_________________________
English Riviera: Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).
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#261633 - 05/03/09 09:58 AM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Senior Member
Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 1144
Loc: Staten Island, NYC
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I dont know but its complicated, i talk to Jerry, Malcolm and Paolo from Korg, people from Ketron, i had an offer from Roland talked to them too, they, all of them agree with what we are saying (i know cuz i talk this same thing to them) but it seems like Abacus says, they have a wider view on this, they see and say the same as us but on a different level, they are more slower, calmer, why i dont know, they seem to be just taking it easy, i cant get it why.
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Cubase 8.5 Pro. Windows 7 X64. ASUS SaberTooth X99. Intel I7 5820K. ASUS GTX 960 Strix OC 2GB. 4x8 GB G.SKILL. 2 850 PRO 256GB SSDs. 1 850 EVO 1TB SSD. Acustica: Nebula Server 3 Ultimate, Murano, Magenta 3, Navy, Titanium.
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#261634 - 05/03/09 05:34 PM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14242
Loc: NW Florida
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Look, Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniac didn't have scores of people coming to them and going 'you know, we would really like a small 'home' computer'. Nobody even imagined it could be possible, let alone think of the possible use for such a thing. They simply built it first, at considerable cost and risk to themselves, and the rest is a slice of Apple pie history.
The market did not EXIST until the product was built. The egg came first... This is what keyboard manufacturers need to acknowledge. Unless they build it, there will NEVER be a market for the product.
And, I'm sorry, but the MS does not count. It has the HARDWARE to do what needs to be done, but is still basically without CONTENT. Why is that important? Because, if you tried to sell a MotifXS with NO loops and arps already provided (but only the capability to make your own) they would sell in a tiny fraction of the numbers they do now. Our WS brothers are JUST as hooked on provided content as we are...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#261635 - 05/03/09 06:10 PM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Senior Member
Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 1144
Loc: Staten Island, NYC
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Thats the point, none of them wants to pay, Dom offered me, to create 50 styles for him, you know how much he offered me? An MS for free and you know whats devellopers price per style? 8 Free MS? or a lil more, for 50 Styles. Can you Imagine, the guy wants me to do 40$ a styles which i have to work 2 days for 40$. I think thats disrespectfull too. I told him, a Free MS to me is only 6 styles, complete, nothing more, not even a note. And Diki, whos gonna pay or whos gonna create styles? Its different when i create collection of styles and sell it on fractions and its different if i create 30 styles for Dom or Ted or whoever where its a one shot thing, i want my 2 days per style, i am not selling those styles on a daily basis. But they wont pay and expect market, it doesnt work that way.
_________________________
Cubase 8.5 Pro. Windows 7 X64. ASUS SaberTooth X99. Intel I7 5820K. ASUS GTX 960 Strix OC 2GB. 4x8 GB G.SKILL. 2 850 PRO 256GB SSDs. 1 850 EVO 1TB SSD. Acustica: Nebula Server 3 Ultimate, Murano, Magenta 3, Navy, Titanium.
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#261637 - 05/03/09 10:26 PM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14242
Loc: NW Florida
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The fact that you guys are still here, on this arranger forum, is proof enough to me that WS's do NOT provide the degree of control and live ease that arrangers do. Or you would already be WS users, plain and simple. I simply feel that there is a small window of opportunity for arranger manufacturers to grab the reins, or a couple more generations of WS's will obsolete them completely. Whether they have the sense to do this or not, I am in doubt Personally, I believe the market ALREADY exists, but really only Ketron and Lionstracs do not already have a WS line, doing considerably better than the arranger line. Dom has the hardware, but not enough money to develop the content, Ketron has enough money to develop the content, but the hardware still has a ways to go, and the content they ARE developing is focused on markets they already have. Really, there's only a few things that WS's need to improve, and then it's game over. First is the 'always in sync' loops that you can switch between on the fly, not cued a bar in advance, and the other thing is bass inversions, and chord inversions, that current WS's don't do. Other than that, with work, a MoXS could be a decent arranger... and beat the pants off any contemporary arranger at modern music. I feel that WS's are excellent for creating loop music at home and in the studio, but the arranger still beats them pants down for live use. That is, if 'live' means any flexibility whatsoever. Ableton Live is the success it is because it allows complete creative control, even in a live situation (contrary to most computer apps). So far, WS's can't do this. Now is the time for arranger makers to step up to the plate. Now, or never. Unless they make the investment, the market will be GONE, and all you are left with is ethnic musics and legacy style for an aging, dwindling market. And let us not think for one minute that the ethnic markets won't disappear as well, once WS's (with all their mature audio capabilities and developed modern content) can do an arranger-like control system. They either do it NOW, or it's the 'home organ' story all over again. There's a product that had an enormous market, but failed to follow trends, to stay contemporary, and now they do, what? Maybe 1% of their 70's numbers...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#261639 - 05/04/09 01:31 AM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5375
Loc: English Riviera, UK
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Hi Diki
Don’t know where you got the idea that Steve Jobs & Co started the computer as computers had been around in the market for some time, however they were all assembled, programmed and used by uses at home in Bedrooms Dens, Sheds etc.
Steve Jobs & Co saw there was a market out there, and then built a universal computer that anybody could use, and standardised it.
Once again uses had seen the potential of the computer and got off their backsides (Butt) and created a market for it, thus spurring on the big boys. (Aspiring big boys at the time) to do something about it (Make Money)
Regards
Bill
_________________________
English Riviera: Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).
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#261642 - 05/04/09 06:43 AM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14242
Loc: NW Florida
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The thing is, spalding... unless the arrangers have styles and sounds that a young player WOULD use, it's no good getting some young turk to demo it anyway! It's not the age of the demonstrator, it's the age of the STYLES... Thing is, pretty much most modern arrangers can completely replace their ROM styles (or ought to be ). So a dealer should be able to load a style package into the store's arranger that would suit whatever is the main demographic his store has. Of course, if some old fart like us walks in, it should be the work of a moment or two to load up a completely different 'oldies' package... It's trying to get youngsters past seeing polkas and foxtrots in a keyboard they want to buy. If they are not in there (except as a HD load, well hidden) and all there are are contemporary styles and loops, he's going to think that the product IS designed for him... If he sees waltzes and schlager, he's going to KNOW the product is designed for his grandfather. If arranger manufacturers want to grow the brand, they are going to need younger players, and they are going to need to attract them by making the product appeal to THEM. Which means hiding the legacy stuff, and rethinking what the purpose of ROM styles is, now that all the memory is volatile. They have an opportunity to rewrite the rules a bit, and restore some relevancy to the product, if they are willing to look past how things always USED to get done.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#261645 - 05/04/09 01:24 PM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Senior Member
Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
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Originally posted by ianmcnll: Most of the younger players can't afford a TOTL arranger, so if contemporary styles are to be featured, they should be in an arranger these people can actually buy.
The success of the Yamaha DJX was because it was relatively affordable.
Ian "Success"..why was it so short lived? I have a different view than you guys...The biggest reason sales in the US (arrangers)are down...they are not understood by the US players..Some just snub it as a "old Casio", and refuse to try and figure it out...Bringing it to my second thought..I have found the professional musician (average) can not and will not grasp the learning curve needed to succeed with an arranger.. As Diki has mentioned the top model arranger keyboards excel over the workstations in live use..There are no comparison....and my opinion the arrangers match the sound of workstations easily...maybe even exceed... For my personal use of an arranger, I am just as happy to turn off the arranger, and play just left hand bass, drums, and piano (organ etc)..This is where the "pros" should look at arrangers to meet their needs..They need to get a better understanding of "how" the arranger can benefit them...not just their "Casio" memory.. This also has to be part of the retail store operations..Sales people have to be trained to understand ..what they sell.. use the correct approach to sell these instruments, they can be found to accommodate "any" buyer...
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#261646 - 05/04/09 02:00 PM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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Originally posted by Fran Carango: "Success"..why was it so short lived?
Well, it did sell very well, and I guess that's a success in itself, but, since I'm the kind of guy who has always worn his baseball cap the right way 'round, to get the real nitty gritty, you'd have to ask Squeak, who literally wore a DJX out from using it so much. He'd know much more about it than I. I do know that the DJX was far better (successful?) than the subsequent DJXII, which seemed to lose "something" according to those who liked the original. Ian [This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 05-04-2009).]
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#261647 - 05/04/09 03:23 PM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14242
Loc: NW Florida
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Fran.... Just as it is only a small percentage of arranger purchasers that are pros, so is the percentage of WS buyers. And also, the percentage of TOTL arrangers is small, compared to the whole market. While a TOTL arranger, Fran, CAN be used at a 'pro' level, sadly, the feature set and overall sound is not contemporary enough for young 'pros' to really accept them. Yes, they are great 'meat and potatoes' keyboards, but the sounds? If I was primarily doing Usher, or Madonna, or Beyonce or Maroon Five, I wouldn't be using my G70. I'd have a MotifXS or a Triton or a Fantom... And trust me... the learning curve to perform well on those things is JUST as steep as an arranger. More so, in fact. That's why I use an arranger - it's easier, not harder! No, arrangers are not used by younger players because they play younger music. And arrangers are voiced and styled for YESTERDAY'S music. Even the dance and trance styles on a TOTL arranger are at least ten years old. And ten year old styles and sounds don't pack a dancefloor of young kids. Not compared to cutting edge dance loops and sounds that modern WS's carry. BTW, before you say that young pros won't pay arranger prices, consider the K2600's and Korg Oasys's that you see on stage all the time. Both at LEAST as costly as a T3 or PA2Xpro... (which are also niche arrangers that few of us, even, own due to the cost, and hard to find to try out - heck, even WE have to drive hundreds of miles to try these things out... you can hardly blame the kids for being unfamiliar with them ) Young kids are not stupid... they know what suits THEIR music. It is arranger manufacturers that are stupid, if they think their product appeals to younger buyers. Either they make the investment, and the market grows, or it's 'move over, Home Organ'...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#261654 - 05/20/09 01:22 PM
Re: AUDYA 2.0 OS
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Senior Member
Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 3131
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