I picked a better file this time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8RZM5M0Pzs

------------------
www.AudioworksCT.com
203.876.1133

It's not working right now, Frank...says it's unavailable.

Should be live shortly

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www.AudioworksCT.com
203.876.1133

You know, it's strange, but the Korg sounds way more compressed than the Yamaha.

The Audya's percussion is better than the Korg's but the brass and other sounds are not quite up to the Yamaha.

So based on how they handled the current SMF:

1. Tyros3

2. Audya

3. Korg PA2XPro

The levels are much more equal this time Frank....great job, and thanks for posting the comparo.

No problem, It's funny that all these keyboards will sound different with each midi file.

Has anyone seen tried this midi optimizer 6.0 http://www.midiland.de/

seems to be a good midi file adjustment program for program/effects and so forth

------------------
www.AudioworksCT.com
203.876.1133

1. Tyros 3

2. Audya

3. Korg PA2XPro


Frank...Id like to hear all the styles w/riffs in different styles if you can ....



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 05-28-2009).]

As Diki said in a previous thread, a lot of these SMF were made using Roland gear, so adjustment is always necessary for optimum sound.

Yamaha has a an automatic re-voice, but that doesn't always work perfectly either.

I don't use commercial SMF files; just make my own for personal recording purposes, so I would certainly test these instruments differently.

The Audya has great percussion, but the rest just doesn't sizzle any more than the other two...I'm sure with a bit of editing they would all sound great (but still not alike), and one's personal preferences on how they would want/need the percussion to sound (as in "live" or CD-like) would be the deciding factor; and of course, the keyboard size as well.

The Audya certainly gives a much better account of itself in this comparison.

Wow big difference this time...A Blind test would remove all bias though.

1. Tyros The sound was incredible and 3D like.The LP was clear and the horns were well Yamaha.Loved the Bari Sax.

2. Audya I liked the Audya on this one. A bit compressed but it was close between this and the T3. The LP on the T3 is what sold me in the end.The solo trumpet was nice.

3. not a good song for the Korg....It was very weak compared to the other two. The sound was "disjointed" and weak in dynamics.

This time it sure was/is different.

Audya climb to 1.st because of the rich and clear sound.
Tyros as 2.nd, very very close to 1.st, but a bit "normalized" and flat sounding in my ears.
Sadly PA2X did not impress me this time!

Again, very personal, and things may differ if compared live side by side with several files
and also styleplaying.

Thank's Frank.

Cheers
GJ

https://www.yousendit.com/download/MnFpRm85dENsMHdLSkE9PQ


G70 version...

As for Frank's last test demo...I think the Audya did sound more live than the second place Tyros, and 3rd place Korg..

Now listen to my G70 version...Realistic live sound with clarity...I know I made the right choice..

I don't hear the Guiro in the Audya or Roland demos but it's there in the Tyros and Korg, sounding best on the Tyros IMHO.

Frank, can you tell us which drum kits were used on each instrument? Thanks for doing this.

(so far, I'm really diggin' the Tyros)

-mike

Mike I know I used a different drum kit on that file...This is a SMF from my library, and I usually fix the anoying drum instruments for my play..

I was very disappointed in the Roland version...the drums and bass weren't even up to the 3rd place Korg (my ratings).

Brass on the Roland wasn't so hot either, but the great trumpet, piano, and guitar came to the rescue.

And, no güiro? Unforgivable.

Overall, it would tie with the Korg (3rd).

thanks for that Frank

ye more GUIRO please ;-)

they are all pretty good,
they all sound different

the true test for me would be through my PA at a gig...which i think the AUDYA would shine

Good idea, when can I expect your check, I'll ship that same day, I'll even update the OS for you.

------------------
www.AudioworksCT.com
203.876.1133

Hey Franny,

The level in the right channel is considerably lower than the left. How's your cables?



Serious....I downloaded your mp3 file and recorded it in Sound Forge to have a look at levels. I've also got the other 3 recorded separately for easy A/B comparisons.

I've got a fever for more Guiro!


-mike

1. Audya
2. Tyros 3
3. PA2x

Please tell us what kind they are, so we'll avoid them at all costs.

https://www.yousendit.com/download/MnFqYUROR0ZuSlFLSkE9PQ


Same SMF recorded on MediaStation..

hey Mike..I used a junk cable that even buzzes untill I move it a little..I am sure it is a bad cable...but my better 1/8" stereo to 2 mono cables are packed in my road gear...

Yes it sounds better with headphones with my G70 than the recorded MP3..

Oh, come ON....

If this forum has ANY claim to wisdom, surely we all know by now that all cables are equal?

You probably have the wrong kind of speaker cables hooked up, Fran... (just kidding, Fran! I'm just articulating the wisdom of the other thread - or lack thereof )

Probably the real reason the left channel is weaker is it's orientation East to West... I mean, there's probably someone, somewhere, who claims he can hear the difference..!

For a fair and full test, though, Fran, you REALLY should have played the file AS IS. Just like the others. You Makeup Tooled that one, didn't you?

http://www.yousendit.com/download/MnFqYURIQzNCTW1Ga1E9PQ

Take 2 with another cable, and changed back to boring Standard drums...

What do you mean Diki?...

BTW, I don't think there IS supposed to be a guiro. A guiro pattern would have the long sample, then two short up strokes for that rhythm. There are no upstrokes. It's another of Yamaha's missteps in trying to create a GM/GS compatible drumset. They didn't even TRY.

Typical Yamaha.

Hey Fran... here's another trick for the G70...

Pretty much all the new shaker samples are 'late' in the pocket, as real shakers are - you get a certain amount of sound before the actual 'body' of the sound. This makes them sound like they are dragging, a bit. Select JUST the shaker notes, and slide them a few ticks 'early', and all of a sudden, the pocket just comes alive...

This works on SMF's and styles too, but it's more of a PITA to do on styles, as there is little 'global' editing of time. That's one thing I'd like to see on the next Roland... Drum sound 'pocket' adjustment from the Makeup Tools.

Which bit? The cables or the editing?

I think it would be an awfully interesting test to give everyone the same file, and three minutes to edit it to the best you can in the time alloted. No cheating, no fudging. Three minutes flat.

It's all very well to have editing tools, but if they are too slow to be practical, you end up not using them.

I would go with the following:
1. audya
2. yamaha
3. korg

Just curious, but Frank... where did this SMF come from, and what was it intended to be played on? (It's date of creation might give a clue, there).

What happened to the guide track, Fran? It's on the other examples...

If this is old GM/GS, why are there any sax's with vibrato? Or trumpets, for that matter? Is the vibrato modulation commands, or have you changed to more modern, sampled vibrato sounds? Because none of them were in the capital Tone selection group... you needed CC00/32 commands to get to them.

Is that second example just plug the file in and hit Play? Because that's what Frank did, I presume...

Mind you, Makeup Tool-ing an SMF is SO easy, we find ourselves doing it pretty automatically! I sometimes don't even hit 'Play' until I've done a couple of my usual tweaks (change to V-Drums, change piano to GrandX, that kind of thing)

Amen

This isn't any better, Fran...drums and bass still weak...maybe you should be using those "easy to use" make-up tools after all? Or Monster cables?


It definitely needs help.

And, still no güiro? Still unforgivable. Are Yamaha and Korg the only ones with any accuracy?

Overall, it still ties with the Korg (3rd).

Ian... there isn't SUPPOSED to be a guiro... The G70 has a good one, it is just Yamaha's f*ckup that you can hear one. It ain't in the file. Even when Yamaha get it wrong, you still think they are right, don'tcha? (Nice try, no banana!)

Point is, it's not SUPPOSED to sound great when you play an old MIDI file into it... it's supposed to sound like what the writer made it sound like. THEN you are supposed to easily make your own adjustments. To what YOU like, not what the factory MAKES you have to like. The Audya, for instance, can't make any adjustments at all, hardly, in OS2 version. PSR's and Tyros have to have a computer and external, third party software to make much adjustment. All the rest make doing this simple task an ordeal compared to the G70. And it is a task you HAVE to do to each and every SMF if you want it to sound its' best.

Overall, listen again to Fran's FIRST, lightly edited version. For an over four year old, discontinued model that you have little respect for, I think it holds up VERY well, and compared to the Audya, $1500 MORE than it's original street price, it makes the Audya look like an overpriced boondoggle.

Guys, I don't hear what you guys hear..

My first G70 version, sounds more realistic, and live compared to Korg, Audya and Tyros....I will stay with my G70 version..

No, my friend, you mean nice try, no güiro?

Well, I did say the G70 was tied with the PA2XPro, and tied for third place amongst these TOTL arrangers is no shame.

It was Fran's idea to pit the G70 against three newer keyboards.

I'm just giving my opinion on how it sounds compared to the other three when playing an SMF....no doubt it does have some great features that still hold up well today, but Frank was not comparing features in this thread.

Tyros 3 BIG++

Impuls

http://www.yousendit.com/download/MnFqYURPUzdiV3lGa1E9PQ


Here is a mystery guest version...And Ian ..I don't believe guiro were intended to be used in the sequence,,,

But the whole point was to see unexpurgated SMF play. I don't think Frank had to tweak the Ketron, Yamaha and Korg at all...

If all you are trying to compare is basic file play, keep it level, Fran!

I'm FAR more interested in the 'three minute test' myself, as that is far more in line with how we ACTUALLY use our arrangers... or at least, I hope it is

BTW: the sequence that I have is using a "standard" drum kit and a "brush" drum kit..Maybe this is the difference ...Frank may have another drum variation...I doubt it though...

Well this sound totally different then the midifile from yesterday.

1 Tyros 3
2 Audya
3 Korg pa2xpro
4 Roland g70


[This message has been edited by FransN (edited 05-28-2009).]

I was under the understanding that this was a comparison using an unedited SMF.

And yes guys, Roland's Make-up Tools are pretty fast, but Yamaha and Korg aren't that much harder...so it takes a few more minutes...I could easily change an SMF at a gig, and so could anyone else familiar with the protocol.

In a perfect world we would all be using Make-up Tools a la Roland.

All our conversations would centre around the Make-up Tools and how, if there were other kinds, they would never be the equal of our beloved Make-up Tools.

Synth Zone would be renamed Roland Make-up Tools.com. In the Talk Forum, you would continue to be referred to as Fran and Diki ("The Chosen Ones"), while the rest of us would merely tack on numbers to reflect our lower standing in arranger society (i.e. I might be 10-19,862,916). All of us would pay the same price for the same keyboard except you... yours would be a little bit nicer, with a wee better sound...of course, we would all know yours cost the most, too (or you got a better price). :P

Unfortunately, the world is far from perfect...and we have to slog along with our crippled old SMF editing...strange thing is, I don't hear or see any complaints about our (Korg, Yamaha) systems on any forums, except by you Rolanders...

Come on guys...being tied for 3rd place in such distinguished company isn't that bad.

And, of course, take my post in the spirit which it was given...with tongue planted firmly in cheek.

The "poll" that counts is mine....and I won....

Sorry guys, you are the experts here but even my PA500 sounds better than this PA2Xpro so I think something related to the recording has to do with it. The volume is lower too. The Korg is much more crispy and bright live. That's my humble opinion.

And our arrangers would have SA2 solo voices and Mega guitars, Korg's sampler and voice editing and the MS's ability to run VSTi's (and would cost like a GW-8!) and of course, would weigh no more than an S900, but with changeable 88 P85 action or 76 G70...

Sadly, it's NOT. Forgive me for being as enthusiastic as you about a feature that is clearly superior.

Now to get my tongue back in place...

It sounded as if the T3 had more reverb than the others.

This time I think the order is:
1 Audya
2. T3
3. PA2x

Recording wise something did not sound right with the PA2x. Volume and punch it was lacking in comparison to the others.


It is obvious that some tweaking would need to be done on each of these keyboards. One factor that would need to be taken in to consideration is the PA system you are playing with.

they were all played through a mixer which then went into a Zoom H4n.

The Korg did sound duller this time, but not sure why, I didn't change anything, I'm sure the next midi file I'll play will also have a different outcome.



------------------
www.AudioworksCT.com
203.876.1133

You're forgiven...just don't let it happen again.

Wow, that has to be the biggest sore loser statement I've heard since I was in about the 8th grade.

You should be "such a loser"...

Actually Pacesetter, I have to stick up for Fran...he is much better sore loser than you say.

Disclaimer: I'm not trying to being sarcastic, so if this doesn't pertain to you, then don't worry about it.

You know, the amount of time some of you spend comparing one instrument to another could be better spent by learning how to operate the features of the instrument you actually own and creating your own styles and sequences so you don't have to rely on another person's idea of what sound correct.

On the other hand, thanks to Frank and Fran for taking time to record these files because it was interesting to hear the difference. "And yes, I realize that is a bit hypocritical based on the paragraph above, sorry." But it does point out a couple of very important issues.

[*]Everybody has different tastes

[*]Using stock SMF's without editing on the instrument they will be played on, to the users taste, is doing a great disservice to the user.

The fact is, pretty much all of the instruments available today sound great. Then again any of them have the potential to sound very bad by using the wrong sounds, bad effects choices and a poor mix. Of course this goes back to individual tastes, so…

To further push the idea of creating your own music, i.e. limiting the use of stock styles, SMF’s, etc. here is a comparison that I know many of you will be familiar with. How many times have you tried a keyboard out in the store, going through the sounds and thought to yourself, some of these sounds stink? Then you listen to the demo songs and realize that you are hearing some of those very sounds in the demo and are enlightened to realize that you now like those sounds, at least within the context of the demo? There is a good chance that some of those sounds are there specifically for use in the demo songs and were put there by the person who created the demos; a person who is extremely familiar with the instrument they are working with and knows how to get the most out of it. See what I mean?

------------------
Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 05-29-2009).]

Frank sent me the actual midi file he used for the shoot-out. Yep, there's guiro events in it. One long, two short.



Diki...you owe Yamaha an apology.

For what it's worth, here is that midi file played through the Edirol SD-90, didn't touch a thing, recorded with Sound Forge 7, converted to 256K mp3.
http://134.84.113.36/music/sway.mp3

And finally, Dave, I spent over an hour last night learning and tweaking the effects section on my own keyboard to get just the right synth sound for Styx's Fooling Yourself. Plus, I practiced the beginning solo enough to where I think I can play it live.

We're okay then......

-mike

Just for fun, here is the same file as played by the instrument I am currently using;

Click Here

NOTE: This is direct from the file with no editing.

------------------
Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 05-29-2009).]

Hi Mike, your'e always OK with me.

------------------
Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

Sounds like a Casio PX piano or WK arranger...definitely has Casio characteristics...and you have the güiro!

Sounds pretty darn good, but I'd still rate it under the rest.

Let's keep it civil shall we? Class = Elegance of style, taste, and manner.

Something sorely missing from our society as a whole sad to say. And something I need to be more aware of and attune to in my life as well. Especially when it comes to talking about the Ketron Audya eh?



The Midifile-Optimizer 6 per professional and lets you customize your Midifiles quickly to your needs.
The program is easy and without any particularly special PC knowledge to operate.

New additions in version 6 is support for the sounds and drumkits Tyros3, plus access to the DSP effects and Tyros3 the Tyros2.

Sensational is the "Intelligent Transpose" the Midifiles.
No grumpy or more instruments after changing the key.
Transpose -9 or +7 or 5 or +6 is no problem, because the tools automatically to the pitch alignment.
The Midifile sounds in every key equally good.
The easiest way to tone, volume, Hall *, tempo, chorus * * 71st controller 74, etc. .. changed.
To sound choice, you will have access to the complete sound equipment available to the following:

Soundset GM, GM2 Soundset,
GEM Genesys pro, GEM Genesys pro S / XP GEM GM-X, HDS Pro.Sound.1,
Kreton Audya, Midjay, Kreton Midjay Plus, Ketron SD1, SD1 Plus, SD 2, SD 3, SD 4, SD 5, X1, XD3, XD9,
Korg i30, Pa1X, Pa1Xpro, Pa1Xpro XMS-1 with V3, Pa2X, Pa2Xpro, Pa60/80, Musikant Pa500, Pa800,
LIMEX ALPIN MASTER 16, ALPIN MASTER 32, Exclusiv tradition,
Miditemp DOX-1,
Roland Discover 5, FANTOM XR, G-70 with SR-G01,
Roland SC-88, SC-88Pro, SC-880, SC-8820 SC-8850, SC-D70,
Roland SonicCell,
Soli ALPHA GM, tradition XL,
Solton SG-X, Technics KN6000
Yamaha Motif-Rack ES, Motif-Rack XS, MU90 (or compatible),
YAMAHA PSR 3000, PSR 8000, PSR 9000, 9000Pro, PSR S900,
YAMAHA Tyros, Tyros2, Tyros3,
YAMAHA S90, S90ES, XG-Soundset.

Integrated is also a drum editor.
With this, it is possible some percussion instruments such as snare, hihat, bass drum, shaker, etc., in the volume, reverb and pitch * * to edit.
For the practice of the files or even for karaoke use, there is a lyrics display, which the synchronous display of the text while playing the Midifiles possible.
With the Copy function are now all the doors open Midifile optimization.
By simply clicking the song to verse or chorus extend.
If a song too long, then cut just superfluous passages out.
Even the copying of individual tracks is now possible to Midifile yet to be fully sound.

All useful features of the Optimizer enumerate here is beyond the scope of this preview blow. More information is available at www.optimizer-pro.de

* The extent of each sound module / keyboard support

Nobody needs the cat in a bag to buy, because the program can be downloaded and any length, without any restriction to be tested. In the demo version can only store 3 times. If you then decide to buy, you need only 150, - € to pay.

Minimum Requirements for your PC: 1 GHz processor, 256 MB memory, VGA 1024x768, 16 bit color, Windows XP (SP2) or Vista.

Recommended configuration: 2 GHz processor, up from 512 MB memory, VGA 1280x1024, 24 bit color, Windows XP (SP2) or Vista.

It is not the Midifile Optimizer 6 Pro on Windows 9x, ME, 2000. Support is only available for Windows XP SP2 or Vista done.

To view the performance of your computer to increase it is best to turn the effects off in the "Display Properties", under "Presentation" can be found.

An updated manual, see www.optimizer-pro.de.

For questions about the forum please use the Optimizer.

All the best,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 05-29-2009).]

Hello Ian,

I agree with you that it is not quite up to par with the other three from the original post. Like I said though, I did no editing to this file at all. I know that if I spent some time selecting other sounds, re-mixing, etc. it could sound much better.

Here is another recording of the same track using another instrument I had laying around. Please let me know what you think.

Click Here

Oh and yes, that first one was a WK8. I was hoping to buy something new (was considering the PA2X Pro) but seeing as I haven't had a real job in over a year and a half and since I do have the WK8 which is sufficing, there was no way of justifying a purchase.

------------------
Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

This one is something I'm a bit stumped on...I don't think it's one of the big three (Yamaha, Roland, Korg)and it's much stronger sounding than a Casio...the Brass is broader, if that makes any sense.

It's not an instrument I've heard often, if at all, ...hence it not being one of the "Big 3"...it does sound "expensive", again, if that makes any sense?

And it's not new.

I'm going to say a GEM or something in that area...maybe even another Ketron...both are companies with which I'm not familiar.

It does sound pretty good...and again, it has the güiro!

I was going to mention in my other post, that Casio have come a long way, and have nothing to be ashamed of, for sure.

I had quite a few CK's here, for comparison purposes, and they were a great bang for the buck....and back in my band days I used a CZ-1 synthesizer(midi'd to my DX-5)...awesome sound and totally pro....their sampler (FZ-1) was pretty cool too.



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 05-29-2009).]

You are correct that it isn't a Y, R of K, nor is it a C or that other K. And there is a strong chance that you and the other members have not heard this particular instrument. Before I say though, I would like to get some other opinions.

------------------
Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

Mea culpa completely then... But I'm sure Yamaha will pay as much attention to an apology as anything anyone suggests, too

Though why we can't hear the upstrokes is beyond me. Fran's posting was an edit, so I guess they got moved around some... My guess is that some PC#'s for some of the legacy kits don't translate too well...

BTW, that Midifile Optimizer is basically the same as Roland's Makeup Tools (I see little in it that Makeup Tools can't already do, including graphic slider representations of Vol/Pan/Cho/Rvb - except of course, you have REAL sliders to work it!). Only, of course, you don't have to pay an extra $212 for the privilege, and have to run a computer on everything first (and have a PC if you don't have an Intel Mac and Windows installed)...

Here's a pretty expensive program to do what Roland include on EVERY E and G series arranger from the cheapest to the most expensive FOR FREE...

Fran sent me the file yesterday (or at least his edit of it). I'll have a quick go at it, see why no guiro... Maybe Frank could send me the original?

Sorry about 'ass'uming about the guiros. See, I'm not immune to it myself . But, in all fairness, the 'claps' problem is so well documented in Yamaha's that I extrapolated

So it must be a GEM product...maybe a module, or a synthesizer?

I've listened again, and I don't recognize any familiar characteristics of the sound...that's why I thought it might be a GEM....or even a Mediastation(wild guess)

No worries......

I'm still curious on why we don't hear this on the Ketron. Was an audio-loop drum kit used or a midi drum kit?

I sure hope I get a chance to see/play an Audya some day. I think it would be interesting to select an audio-loop drum kit (by itself) and play ALL the notes, one at a time.

What did they use to record the laser zap sound?

-mike

Mike, I think you have got something fundamentally wrong.

As I understand it, you CAN'T use a 'loop kit' to play a MIDI file, only the regular kind of drumkits same as you have in your current arranger...

There are no 'loop kits'. A loop is just that... a recording of a drummer playing a groove, all the sounds mixed up one ONE stereo file. There are going to be hihat hits or ride hits on every single beat, at the same time as snare and kick. You can't separate them out, or send a MIDI note to just one sound.

Now, if I were Ketron, I might have used the kit that the drummer played to make a regular MIDI drum kit sample set, to allow you to modify or replace the loop with minimal timbral change, but no word has been said about this possibility, so I don't have high hopes for this.

The thing that bugs me is that, if you listen to the better drum kit libraries that modern computers can play, EZ Drummer, DFH Superior, BFD, etc., and the MIDI grooves they develop for them, played by real drummers on MIDI drumkits, you can hear that even without going to live loops, you can get drum realism that is amazingly real, amazingly live, and VERY hard to tell it ISN'T a loop...

But with NONE of the loops disadvantages. No editing, no changing kits, or drums within the kit, no changing the 'swing factor' on the style, etc., etc.. It strikes me that, were enough ROM dedicated to a kit with this level of detail and dynamics, you wouldn't NEED loops. ROM memory is a fraction of it's cost from just a few years ago. Surely this is the better, more flexible solution without any drawbacks?

Give these a listen: http://www.toontrack.com/ezdrummer.asp (check out the expansion packs, especially the jazz drums, the Latin Percussion, the Nashville brush and rods kits, and my favorite, the Twisted kit!
http://www.toontrack.com/ny_legacy_vol2.asp
http://www.fxpansion.com/index.php?page=53&tab=148

Bear in mind that most of the demos are geared more to the younger player/producer, but there ARE some for us old farts mixed in..!

I happen to feel that loop technology for drums is a dead end, unless you NEVER mess with your arranger's drums at all. And how many of us have NEVER tried a pattern out with brushes instead of sticks, or turned down (or up!) the reverb, simple basic things like that that you CAN'T do with loops.

I really hope that arrangers don't go down that path wholesale, and reduce us to playing preset patterns whether we like them or not...

Diki, you are correct that it is not possible to access individual sounds within a sampled drum loop. And your idea of including separate samples of the entire kit used in a loop for use in a normal sequence track is a good one.

I disagree that a sequenced drum track can sound identical (you didn't say identical, but implied it I think) to a looped sample of a full kit being played live. The acoustic interaction of the toms, kick, cymbals and snare, and the much higher resolution of quantization in a digital recording versus the much lower ppqn of a sequenced track is what makes the whole looped rhythmic samples within a sequence desirable. On the other hand, will any audience member notice the difference? Pretty unlikely. As Ian mentioned in his comment regarding my link to the Sway file as played from my WK8, it didn't sound as good as the Ketron, Yamaha or Korg (of course the WK8 is also around 10 year older technology but that's another story). The point I want to make here is that the audience just doesn't know the difference. I have considered using the other instrument (from my second link) but seeing as the people I have played for thus far when using just the WK8 were very complimentary as to not only my performance but also the sound, I may save myself the extra little bit of work setting up an additional piece of equipment. Although there is something to be said for personal enjoyment/satisfaction, and the obvious sonic improvement from the other piece of equipment may win and I'll still bring it along.

Anyway, getting back to the original topic if only slightly; Pretty much all of the arranger keyboards available today sound good. Sure a sequence created on one particular brand is going to sound different and possibly not as good when played back on another brand, even when sticking to GM sounds, with a little editing it can sound just as good as the original.

I really think a better comparison to be made is in reference to the feature set of each instrument, panel layout, user interface, etc. This is where the important differences are as far as I am concerned. How easy is it to get around on during performance? How quickly does a new song take to load from the storage device and what are the storage options? How does the keyboard feel, like cheap hollow plastic or something more substantial? What type of recording functions are offered? Etc. And then it is important to realize that there are varying needs for each player, so no one instrument is the answer to everyone's prayers.

I contend that the biggest difference between all of these brands is not the instrument at all. It is the owner of the instrument. Personality and showmanship is where the real difference is. It is unfortunate to me that talent isn't included, not that being a good showman isn't a talent, but I am referring to musical talent or put another way, playing ability. I can hold my own on an acoustic piano or traditional organ, and that ability is transfered to my arranger playing. But the fact is, I get the same great response when I just playback a sequence and walk around the room with a wireless headset and sing to or dance with the audience. So I have learned to leave my playing ability chops at the door when working certain types of gigs and just rely on my good looks .

------------------
Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

So David...what is the "other instrument" you would use instead of the Casio WK8?

Wow!! who knew? if you really want to make some tips throw on a Chicken Hat also.. But be careful, you don't want to be labeled a KARAOKE artist

I was really hoping for some other opinions before divulging that information. The instrument is nothing I'm selling or otherwise promoting, I am just interested in hearing some honest, un-biased opinions from others. I have my opinion as well, and I kind of like the sound, but then there are things I like about the other brands as well. Personally though I kind of like how the sounds on this instrument are more defined. I don't mean just the fact that they are not buried in reverb. The sounds are sampled a bit more up-front, are less processed sounding (a problem I have with one of the models from the original post) and the fidelity is more dynamically punchy to me. But to each his own. Again, I would just like to hear others opinions.

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Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

I don't really look good in hats. But I have thought about gluing on some chest hair when doing a Tom Jones tune.

One word I should have included in the last paragraph of my prior post along with showmanship is 'entertainment'. It kind of stinks sometimes but the ONLY reason people hire any of us is for the entertainment value. If you are entertaining to a given audience, it doesn't matter if you have a lousy voice, or that you couldn't play your way out of children's sing-a-long, it only matters that you are entertaining. If that means I push play and stand there with my hands in my pants (well OK, I don't typically play those types of gigs)... but you get what I mean.

To be honest, it does bother me that I spent many years learning my craft, both from the playing standpoint and the technical knowledge of keyboard instruments and related products, only to be referred to as a karaoke artist. But a couple of things about that;
First, I still play in two real bands, my four piece traditional jazz group and an 8 piece group that ranges in styles from Reggae, Latin, R&B, jazz, blues, Zydeco, Rock and Roll and whatever else we can think of.
And second, other than doing demos and clinics at dealers, or making online product demo videos and other than demoing in a NAMM or Music Messa booth for the past 20 or so years, I had never used an arranger keyboard for a solo gig until just several months ago when I filled in for a friend. It was very last minute so I didn't have much time to prepare so I used an assortment of smf's I had from a past employer, I found a few styles that could work for a variety of songs and went for it. I enjoyed myself as much as anyone who was there listening to me. There were times that all I did was press the play button and then sing the song. Now I didn't just stand there or even pretend to be playing, I got out in front and joined the crowd, and I had a blast. This is just another form of performing, another from of providing entertainment, that's all. Of course I am proud that I can then turn around and actually play the keyboard without any help from a micro-processor but it is fun to provide entertainment in general no matter how I go about it.

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Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 06-02-2009).]

Well at least you have a good attitude about the business & are not a annoying purist which I can't stand....having blinders on in this business is detrimental IMO as not to let in the world of music will definitly hinder your final product due to the lack of ideas you can peruse. I have always left myself open to all kinds of music which in return has made me a better performer/singer & musician. Stubbornness will hurt you although many don't think so in their own head.
You certainly have a good open outlook, keep it up & enjoy the magic of music!

DP

Thanks for that. I'm with you on the purist thing. Heck, I started piano lessons at age 5 and grew up on acoustic piano and Hammond organ. And the first job I had after college (a piano performance major) was selling acoustic pianos and Hammond organs. I visited multiple acoustic piano manufacturing plants and learned the ins and outs of acoustic piano building in order to be more knowledgeable while talking to customers. As good as some of the digital pianos have gotten in recent years, there is still nothing like playing a real acoustic instrument or hearing a real live band. I love real acoustic instruments being played by accomplished musicians, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate what can be done through the miracle of digital electronics and welcome the technology. So I consider myself an 'enlightened purist'.

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Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

It's possible.

I agree...I think it was wrong for me to say "audio-loop drum kit". What I meant and should have said was, "audio sampled drum kit".

Here's where I was coming from; a while back I emailed Ketron support and asked the question, "With the Audya playing a SMF, can I substitute the midi standard drum kit with one of the new audio drum kits?"

They answered, "Yes!"

So now I'm thinking that they have a drum kit chuck full of live audio samples. I know that GEM did something similar with their R.A.S.S. (Real Audio Synchro Style) technology. They used audio samples that were triggered with midi events. They offered some "Live Drum Kit" RASS files that sounded quite good.

Then when the Audya manual was released and I saw this on page 47:



I guess I was thinking that it would be possible to use Audio Drums in SMFs and I was very curious to hear samples of that. But like you said, maybe I'm not quite getting it. Maybe I'm thinking something is there and it's not.

Dave, you just let me know when you want me to Photoshop a nice chicken hat on ya. You can use the picture for your next business cards (free of charge).

-mike

Scratch what I said above about the Audya Midi Remix. I'm re-reading the manual and it does not use the original midi events to trigger the new audio drums. It replaces the original midi drum track with whatever style you selected which could include an audio drum track.

That's not what I was thinking about.


-mike

Whats wrong with being labeled a Karaoke :artist"? LOL

I made a lucrative career with it's beginnings in karaoke and many people make a good living today as Karaoke Djs.....

I don;t consider Karaoke and insult.......In fact it got me out of corporate life and I saw parts of the world (like Diego Garcia) I would have never had a chance to see if it were not for a little (new idea in America) Karaoke show at Carlos and Charlies in San Doeigo in 1983

Walk the room with that nike, The name od the game is ENTERTAINMENT and that is not always or reserved for the guys who play the fastest opr most interesting riffs...

UI annot imagine where I'd be if I turned a nose up at Karaoke all those years ago......

Probably still working for Xerox Corp...Ugh....or worse, laid off....still making house and car payments.......double ugh..



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 06-02-2009).]

I'm a singer first who backs him self up with playing Arranger Keyboard, SMF, Mp3 Backing tracks & anything else that make my audience happy & myself....after 40 years 25 of them playing in a & pc show band I think I've done well. Karaoke or singing to tracks is just another tool to entertain when done right by a professional singer.
I certainly respect your accomplishments.

take care

You mean like this:


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Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 06-02-2009).]

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[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 06-02-2009).]

OMG!!!!
Now Thats Entertainment!!!

I was just gonna go with the Chicken Hat....not the Chicken Head.



-mike

Donny and others of the "chicken hat" persuasion:

Good luck with your Karaoke work. Just understand that there are lots of working folks who, for various reasons, don't want to have anything to do with it.

That's not a criticism of those who do it that way, it's just the way it is for some, including me. And some of us haven't starved or otherwise suffered from our "narrow mindedness". It's just a differrent approach and not one that should be criticized, in my opinion. What's right for any one individual is what works for them and what they can live with.


Russ "elitest" Lay

Well, if you going to do something, may as well go all the way.

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Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

Hi Russ,

I don't know exactly where Donny was coming from, but I certainly wasn't criticizing the non-arranger players. In fact I was commending those including myself who have the ability and desire to go without technology sometimes. I have done a number of solo gigs for restaurants, private parties, etc. where I played the piano on site or brought a digital piano and bass pedals sans any kind of accompaniment and have had a lot of fun doing that as well. If I had to choose, I would always prefer to play with other musicians. But the sorry truth is there are just not that many places left that can afford or are willing to pay for a full group. And as they say in the old movies, "baby needs a new pair of shoes".

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Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

I get a lot more work using the arranger...I used to do a lot of band work and some solo piano, but the market has changed, and I had to adapt.

I still love playing and jamming with my buddies, but now it's mostly for fun.

The arranger work pays the bills.

Karaoke & DJ's are the Live Musician's biggest competition like it or not .....that alone says something for how much the public is embracing this kind of entertainment. Little by little without replenishment a slow phasing out will occur of live performers, sad but true. Just look around you, go to a Bar or Wedding, etc...
Find your own niche`, respect it, cure it, & love it with reckless abandon if you want to survive as a "FULL TIME" Live Player.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 06-02-2009).]

Dave; Ian...I use an arranger, too, on about 30% of my jobs. You're right; the market has changed drastically, and group work is harder to come by. In certain instances, the arranger makes it possible to work.

I guess the secret for me is to use arrangers and other "helpers" (harmonizers, loupers, etc.) as tools that facilitate, not as crutches. It's kind of a slippery slope, and I personally draw the line when it comes to karaoke, or sequences of any kind.

And, of course, NO CHICKEN HATS!

Please understand that this is my preference only, and in NO WAY a criticism of people who do it differently. That's just not for me.

Here's to future success to all, regardless of how we choose to do it.


Russ

I keep coming here, and looking at the title line of the forum, and I keep seeing the 'General ARRANGER KEYBOARD Forum' in the header.

So, naturally, I keep looking for when they are going to add 'Karaoke entertainer' up there...

This is not a singing forum (plenty of those). This is not a Karaoke forum (PLENTY of those ). Those who's expertize is in those fields are better served elsewhere. But, curiously, on a forum for players of a certain type of keyboard, it seems that those who's primary skills are not in the field of playing are the ones with the MOST to say, and little patience for anyone else's viewpoint... And often, probably due to their own inability to play well, a lack of appreciation that great playing, all by itself, CAN be great entertainment...

You'll never see Clapton in a chicken hat. Or mugging for the audience. Strangely enough, he can entertain a stadium just by PLAYING. Forgive me when I get frustrated by asinine comments that seem to indicate that 'putting on a show', mugging around and generally ignoring basic playing skills is the ONLY way anyone could possibly get a group of people to like you...

My experience has been that you CAN dazzle a crowd just by playing. And, if you can't, perhaps the solution is to learn to be a better PLAYER, rather than go get a chicken hat...

It can be a G as Ian suggested, or it can be a T.

For my ears, it is up there with the first three. Or at least around there. the WK 8 was a Casio? What Casio is that?

How about the GEM GM-X sound module?
http://www.generalmusic.com/prodotti.asp?cod=xserie&mod=991648


-mike

OK, I created my own versions:

Roland Hyper Canvas
http://rapidshare.com/files/240135903/Sway_HyperCanvas.mp3.html

Hypersonic 2 GM Module
http://rapidshare.com/files/240135904/Sway_Hypersonic_GM.mp3.html

recorded at 96KHz, resampled at 48KHz, Lame encoder 320kbps, used Goldwave

both softsynths are obsolete now... what do you think?

Diki I have to say what a pompous post as usual....all you ever do is talk down to everyone. It's really annoying day after day. you make it sound that your some kind of music god & I would assume very far from it. I come here to the SZ to enjoy the posts and try to learn from them. Instead I have to maneuver around them because you think you know it all or feel it is right to belittle peoples gear & their way of doing things because you say so. I've been around the business a long time in different facets other then playing and believe me there is always someone like you running around trying to be someone they aren't. Funny thing is they never see it that way themselves. Try to step back sometime and see what you sound like.There are so many good people here on the SZ I've had the pleasure to deal with & that's the only reason I come back. Many have also left due to the BS also & that hurts everyone.I'm sure many feel this way, sorry to be the one to say it.

Have a nice day.

The Generalmusic GM-X it is. Thanks for playing. I do think I will start using it in conjunction with the WK-8 (not a Casio). One MIDI Cable and a short audio cable, set it on top of my amp and I'm ready to go.

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Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

And, exactly as you feel you have the right to say what you feel, so do I...

Do I have the right to respond to you? Is it OK for me to post what a prat you come off as, also? You REALLY don't want to read that, trust me...

As to my undoubtedly lousy playing skills, let's put it this way... been making a living for 35+ years. Never had to wear a chicken hat yet!

And, what happened? You didn't notice the karaoke wannabes talking down to people as well? What, exactly, are you looking to learn from these giants of the industry? How to use an arranger as an iPod? Hat advice? Or how to come off as some kind of 'expert' while at the same time admitting that you can't actually PLAY? All yours, mate. Enjoy...

Add to that, belittling other people's gear is pretty much a universal here at SZ, practiced by player and 'entertainer' alike. Get pissed at me for this, you'd better start being pissed at the entire forum. And no, I don't talk down to everyone. But I DO make a point of doing it to those that talk down to me and others, that don't seem to recognize that wearing a chicken hat, or poo-pooing any playing skills is EXACTLY the sort of information people like you are looking for...

BTW, I've been around the music biz for a lifetime, and there's always someone like YOU there too. Unable to tell the difference between those that CAN do something, and those that can't. Assume all you want. Come see me play. I'll play circles around our 'karaoke' protagonists. Not that being able to play well has any value any more, when using someone else's playing and pretending it is you is considered legitimate 'entertainment'.

Take a look around this forum, and try to find something your heroes ever posted about PLAYING music.... Best of luck. Endless pissing contests to bolster the latest thing they bought, but bugger all about playing music. If that's the information you are looking for, have at it. Personally, I think there are a LOT more people here that would like to be able to PLAY better a lot more than they want to learn to be a karaoke entertainer.

Or, at least, I HOPE that is the case...