Hi all,

while I'm quite an expert in all things 80s home keyboards I am quite a newbie in arrangers. In fact, I have only stumbled upon arrangers yesterday, when I asked myself: How could I synchronize auto-accompaniments and rhythms of all these MIDI-less Casio keyboards, so that multitrack recordings get less painful, and live performances possible?

Now, as far as I understood, arrangers have this auto-accompaniment features with editable styles, which would allow me to program those Casio styles and play them with arbitrary chords, right? (And this is the main feature in which they differ from workstations, right?)

The next thing is to faithfully reproduce the original sounds, which could be done by multisampling the sounds. But this needs sampling features on the arranger keyboard, and my first research showed that these things start to get real expensive.

I know most of you guys will cringe at the picture of reducing an arranger to a "Multi-Casio" machines, but please: Could what I want be done as I described it? If so, could you recommend an arranger (or maybe other keyboard) that can do that which is not too expensive?

Another question: Can anyone think of an other (cheaper!) way of doing this? I know I could use a cheap sampler to play simple sounds, but I definitively want the auto-accompaniment feature. Is there maybe any MIDI device that can play predefined patterns based on chord key input?

So now you can start bashing me for this crazy idea. Come on, go ahead, I can take it. But I really would like to know what you think.

Since you mentioned that you already have some devices (keyboards) that produce "auto accompaniment" and "rhythm", you must realise that you already have one or more "arrangers", regardless if they accept or transmit MIDI or not.

If I understand, the problem is to "control" those MIDI-less things from an independent, external source.

I don't think that it can happen easily... but why don't you list what you have (makes, models) and what you want to do (e.g. keyb 1 accompaniment + keyb 2 rhythm +keyb 3 right hand=live music) so that older members can contribute.

If you're looking for a budget arranger with sampler (that will perform at the level of sampling you need).., sorry to say.., but there isn't an arranger in that catetgory for you unless you go with one of the TOTL pro models.

If you want to create styles internally on the keyboard in the budget market (outside of the Casio line).., you're looking at the PSR-S550. If you're looking to at least add audio or wav to your arranger sound (used in real-time and not triggered via auto accomp) you have the Roland GW-8 that uses the USB file player (plays mp3 and wav files..., plus has a center cancel feature that'll remove lead vocals).

If you're wanting to tweek preset voices in the budget line the PSR-S550 is out. The GW-8 will do this, the PSR-S700 will do this too. The PSR-S900 is a good arranger, but at just under $2,000 I wouldn't consider it budget.

If you're looking to a budget arranger that functions more like a synth/arranger there's the PA-50 (Triton based sound engine).., very indepth synth editing.

Korg also makes the PA-500..., a good budget arranger with a touch screen (no sampling though and no expansion).., but will record user styles and do a darn good job at creating custom programs using the internal tones.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 06-01-2009).]

Wow, thanks for the quick response, guys!

@trident: Yes, in a sense, I have all I need. Only the stuff I got is semi-analogue and MIDI-less, and to synchronize two rhythms or accompaniments of two different keyboards with the pretty sensitive sliders is a pain in the butt. The only feasible way is to stop one rhythm every few bars and restart it again in sync with the other. It would be nice to control them by MIDI (and there are some MIDI add-ons, but only for a few keyboards), but the thing about having an arranger with sampling and editable patterns would be that I could sample the original sounds and program the original patterns and thus reproduce the Casio's quite faithfully. So I would have everything in one place, always in sync, and wouldn't have to lug all those little keyboards around.

@squeak_D: Thanks for the suggestions -- that's what I feared. I'd definitively need some sampling. I want that true cheesy cranky Casio sound.

One nice arranger with sampling I have stumbled upon is the Gem Genesys, and it seems to be quite affordable in used form. What do you think?

[This message has been edited by General Error (edited 06-01-2009).]

Besides ..all of the above...You may want to consider a laptop, running a host like Mixcraft4 or Forte...Mixcraft 4 comes with an assortment of VST's (sounds), and loops..

You can add OnemanBand10 and/or Livestyler to use with any Yamaha style..OMB will also allow you to edit styles..

You will need a USB keyboard controller..Your total cost will be considerably less than the moderate to high end arrangers (under $1,000)..

This method will handle what you want to do today..and take care of your future needs too..

General,
Go to the Casio website and download the manual for the WK-500. It has a sampler and you might find this will do everything you need. Street price should be in the $300s. -Ted

> You can add OnemanBand10 and/or Livestyler to use with any Yamaha style..OMB will also allow you to edit styles..

This seems to be what I meant, some MIDI solution that's able of live play back of patterns depending on chord keys? If so, I'll definitively check that out. Seems somewhat absurd to pay 1000s of bucks for emulating cheapo Casios. I'd like to go on with my "20 € per instrument" philosophy

Thanks for the info! I checked the manual, and though the sample times are pretty short, it has an SD card slot, so that's okay. But it seems that the pattern editor doesn't let you create completely new accompaniment patterns, apparently you can only assign different rhythms to the separate accompaniment parts. I'll check the Casio forum for that.

If you are just doing this ay home, Error, particularly how attached to the vintage gear you as you have gotten, you might also want to consider one other tool... For recording, anyway

Many modern DAW's can do 'Beat Correction' on audio files. You can play the different parts in un-synced, then the DAW slices them up on each note, and then time corrects them just like you were hitting 'Quantize' on a MIDI sequencer, along with some time-stretching to make sure there are no gaps at the slices. Ableton Live is an exceptional tool for this, and it allows you to trigger these pre-recorded clips live and interactively.

Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but it sounds like, from the 80's gear, you are into synth pop, that kind of thing? Maybe if you give us more of a clue what kind of music you are trying to make, we can narrow down your choices of which arranger best suits you, too...

Yes, I have Cool Edit which does that pretty well, but it's tedious... Ableton Live, now, is something I really have to have a look at. People keep suggesting it!



Well, not really. You can have a listen at some first demos (really basic stuff) at MySpace: http://www.myspace.com/generalerrorberlin

I think I will not have any definitive direction. I just like experimenting with sounds, I like hypnotic slow stuff ("Dark Dub" is a good example; it's just an unedited live session that still I need to sequence a bit), and I like trashy synth pop too -- as documented on "Die E-Mail", a free German interpetation of that old Box Tops hit "The Letter" --, and I also like completely broken and weird "drone" noise with no recognizable structure. So it will be hard to for you to recommend a suitable machine, I guess.

But anyway, I already got lots of info that I'll have to check. But in the end, I'd definitively prefer some non-computer version, as I already have a full-time software programmer job, and another digging out interesting old stuff on Ebay