Are we pushing too hard for perfection that�s already there? I have both PA2x and Audya and to me they both sound fantastic, how much more do you all want with better midi, better style, better programmability and so on. When the Lexus was first manufactured a little man travelled the World with a tape recorder and taped the sound of car doors shutting, trains, Rolls Royce, all in a bid to match the slamming of a Lexus door to sound just right, �IT�S A CAR FOR GOD SAKE�. I know the whole object of a KB is to get the best sounds but for who, us or the audience, how the hell do they know, half are tone deaf if you�re playing to line dancers. The car by the way you just want to start and be reliable, imagine �Joe com and look at my new Lexus, just listen to these doooors� My Audya I just want to press buttons and it will do what it says on the button, the enigma theory is you need to press button only in a certain order or it won�t work, that�s my only real complaint. BTW can�t we have a Lexus door slamming sample on the Audya, ONLY JOKING?

Regards


[This message has been edited by Tony Hughes (edited 09-15-2009).]

I have to admit I kind of agree with your first premise... It's why I have a five year old arranger with not the slightest interest in anything new, and why I used my previous arranger (G1000) for ten years before I made the jump to the G70.

My previous arranger had the amazing Chord Sequencer feature, which allowed me to use style mode and STILL play like a real keyboard player (not the poor crippled one-hander that arrangers usually force you into), so a large percentage of what was heard was MY playing, not the machine's.

And my current arranger has by far the best tools to tweak translations and legacy styles so they sound as good as the ROM styles, and I have a never ending supply of new styles to keep both my and my audience's interest up.

But I have a sneaky suspicion that so many of us trade up or across because we are relying on the arranger to do the majority of the work, rather than our own skills as players, so repetition boredom quickly sets in, and most arrangers make it fairly complicated to tweak translations to a high level.

I think I might make a move IF Roland brought out a new TOTL arranger with everything the G70 has, plus a decent sampler with tempo locked loops, but otherwise, I think that I have all I need to perform live music at a pretty high level for maybe the rest of my career.

Mind you, if they reintroduced the Chord Sequencer, I would HAVE to get it, no matter what else they got wrong

Ditto Diki except Technics KN7000 to Roland E 80, but still have Yam Ty2 for occasional use.
Bebop

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tony Hughes:
[B]Are we pushing too hard for perfection that�s already there? I have both PA2x and Audya and to me they both sound fantastic, how much more do you all want with better midi, better style, better programmability and so on.

Regards


NOPE!perfection is not yet available in the KB department.I'm still stubbornly holding out for a KB that allows JUST as many open slots for Custom voices AS preset crap.To me 80% or so of the voices are like buy a chain saw at walmart,just crap.I could NOT survive in the KB world without Custom Voices!

The road to my perfection would also be able to assign MIDI song;
adjustments,channel on/off,DSP,Chorus,Reverb etc like settings TO Registration banks..Keyboards are current young adult toys thus far..i may have to enter old age to finally see my kind of keyboard manifest..oh well stubborn has always been easy for me,but it makes it soo much easier with these retard $4000 price tags that basically get a dude some new dopey new feature labelled "Here's a new piece of useless candy for ya sucker"

Also to approach perfection,a keyboard must be able to have DSP's available for ALL parts,Bass,Chd1-2,Pad,Phr1-2,Rhy1-2.
ie:
'Bass' with 'Tempo Delay'
'Chd1' with 'Wah'
'Pad with 'Hall'
'Rhy1' with another 'Temp delay'
'Phr1-2' with 'Distortion'
..i'm not paying another $4000g for a set of sliders!!that's for dam tooting sure.

[This message has been edited by mr9000 (edited 09-16-2009).]

I think we push too hard. It's also a bit of a "generation issue" IMO. I think some of us who have been playing for a REALLY long time have quickly forgotten what it "used to be like".

I think (at least from what I see.., so please don't take it the wrong way anyone).., but in the arranger community it seems consumers are always pushing for more more more.., in terms of presets (in both sounds and styles). I think (again from what I see) there are many who take what they currently have for granted. Many get so caught up in finding those (perfect sounds and styles).., they often forget the tools that are already in the keyboards they own.

I think that has always been a fundamental difference between arranger players and workstation players. One group wants presets.., the other group also wants presets.., but is probably 10 times more likely to dig in and make a patch, pattern, ect their own.

Maybe we should start another topic and post the gear we used 10 years ago and compare that to what we're using today. Holy sh*$& if something like my Juno-Di was available in 1999..., I think I would have incased the thing in glass

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 09-16-2009).]

I know someone who had a Bontempi made in Italy, thats how old I am.

I'm not as old as some here.., but I'm old enough to lay claim to owning some great classics I often look back at what I have today.., and what I owned years back and it always brings a smile to my face when I listen to my music on today's keyboards compared to how it sounded 10 years ago.

This isn't just an arranger issue, mind you. I see this in the studio all the time. We call it 'turd polishing'

You see, if a tune is great, it doesn't NEED every last part tweaked and effected to hell and back. It just WORKS. But so often, a writer or musician will fail to see that the basic song or part itself is bad, and will continue to massage it forever in some vain way of thinking that that will magically transform it into a masterpiece

Listen to some sixties classics, and gasp in awe at the 'perfection' they achieved. Then try to count how many effects they used.

My G70 can have upwards of six separate effects on different Parts, including two insert effects with dozens of choices. If I CAN'T make great music with this amazing palette of sounds and effects at my disposal, getting a more capable arranger isn't going to make a difference.

If your needs are for something that as yet doesn't exist, for capabilities that are beyond what contemporary arrangers can do, perhaps you are looking at the wrong kind of tool for the job? Or perhaps you are looking for an excuse as to why you haven't ALREADY made great music with what you have...

I know what your saying Diki,but music to me is meant to be meddled with,modified,played,tinkered,and mainly to Evolve.Kinda how the singer Cher changed the world with that "Do you Believe" song of her's.That's music before you evolving to me,and not just staying in a state of non change since the 60's.The technology IS there,just R&D people to busy ordering pizzas and out on their yachts ignoring what the world unnkowingly craves.

[This message has been edited by mr9000 (edited 09-17-2009).]

But do you honestly 'believe' that this move to Auto-Tuned vocals has actually IMPROVED modern pop music? Nowadays, they massage and 'improve' everybody up to and including great singers like Celine Dion, to what end? Do they sound 'better'? I honestly don't think so. The microtonal inflexions of the unprocessed human voice is the MOST complex sound you are likely to ever hear. Try to think what Ella would have sounded like with ALL pitch inflexion 'fixed'...

What it is is a money saving tool to allow ever hard strapped studios to output something that doesn't suck at a fraction of the cost that it would have taken before the invention of AutoTune and Melodyne. But making something 'not suck' is hardly a goal worth pursuing. Making something that connects with the listener is an art, not an industrial process.

Which is what the rampant use of AutoTune has turned it into. NeYo is just the logical conclusion. Someone completely incapable of singing, 'Cher''d to the gills, and foisted on the by now uninformed public.

It is no wonder that a large percentage of kids interested in music listen preferentially to the music of the seventies. Even THEY can recognize when something is REAL, not computer enhanced to the point of roboticism.

I would have to take robotism'd over living through 70's bunk.There was no beat,little bass,and way to much strings used.I don;t know which kids in question are being refered to that are into the 70's music.My personal opinion is music was heartbeatless and basically an unliving entity until
1984-ish,when the world slowly started waking up.
Keyboard companies are starting to slowly fall asleep with their non inventions though.There should be 'obvious' new things added,other than gimics.Why not throw in a something shocking every 2 releases to show their on top of things,like the D-Beam device on roland.That was refreshing,though borderline gimmiky.But the T3??what the heck is that all about,that is most def what the T2 should of been long ago.For example a good new inention for me would be a wireless remote that goes into my mouth to ADD to the footswitch function and not take THAT function away either...on & on i could go why i'm not buying a 3ft 30lbs hunk of plastic for $4000...am i being to hard on wanting perection?NO,i think KB departments are being to hard on testing my patince on what i know that THEIR purposely holding back on putting out.
Good grief,by now KB's should be in the 24track area,and have a whole slew of little pitch bend type wheels for ALL tracks for controlling brightness,harm etc instead of having to go into those pages and waste time pulling them up.I'm impatient
because i know a time is coming where a KB & it's owner are going to be of MUCH more oneness and not all the current fluing around the keyboards buttons like some gymnist excersisng.
Then ther's the registration banks,again..what a nightmare those are for needing a blasted computer to know which banks are open,used,or never to be erased(yet (for me) continually mistaking overwritten.There should BY NOW be a screen dedicated JUST FOR THIS where ALL is viewable on all work in those banks OR at the very least a 'Lock' function that asks "are you sure,you have crap there you wanted to keep on such and such a day"...on&on i could go..to me not 'harsh at all,rather "lazy' is the correct word usage for this topic on manufactures.

[This message has been edited by mr9000 (edited 09-18-2009).]

It's obvious that your take on the seventies is 'dance' music orientated, or you might remember the birth of 'rock', with Zeppelin, Cream and all that. Or you might acknowledge the birth of punk (mid 70's), roots reggae (mid 70's), heavy metal, Jazz fusion, Steely Dan, funk and, let us not forget, the earliest rap and hiphop (Afrika Bambaata, Kurtis Blow and the Sugarhill Gang)....

It wasn't ALL Abba, the Bee Gees and Donna Summer

Nearly everything we listen to today has its' roots in the seventies. And, to be honest, little today has managed to surpass it, except technically. Yes, there was little bass on the records, because they WERE records Heavy bass used to make the needle jump out of the groove. We turned it up at the amp... problem solved!

But one thing you can be assured of. Every single singer you listen to from the seventies performed those songs entirely by themselves. No AutoTune, no 'comping', no studio trickery. Few of today's stars could even dare to sing on record without it (or their sales would plummet!). And an awful lot of them use AutoTune for live shows, too, or mime to tracks. This would have got them booed at a concert, but nowadays, no-one cares.

Karaoke Nation...

Right on Diki!!!!! Shoot.., 99.99% of hip hop and rap today (even a lot of pop)is something they reached back to and borrowed from the great musicians of the 70's I swear 9 out of 10 vids I see on YouTube with some guy using his MPC sampling directly from vinyl is using an ablum from the 70's.

People sure enjoying lying to themselves..wonder if KB's completely stopped adding any new features,would the buying public adjust happily with their stagnated features and still say "nothing but perfection here" in 2020..

DikiWrote:"But one thing you can be assured of. Every single singer you listen to from the seventies performed those songs entirely by themselves"

But that's like saying;"in the 1800's you can be assured people performed getting to work themselves,no cars,trains or modes of travel to work in help,just 20miles of labouring walk without shoes up hills both ways..aw the good ol days when everything was pure,simple and self driven without the aid of helps'/evovlment...if vinyl is so good..where's Taylor swifts new scratchy record?

[This message has been edited by mr9000 (edited 09-18-2009).]

I guess you haven't been noticing the trend towards vintage keyboards that dominate today's music. I guess you haven't noticed that Korg, Nord, Roland and Yamaha going out of their way to jump on the vintage bandwagon. I guess you haven't noticed the resurgence of analog synths, as digital ones are finally debunked as 'better'.

I guess you haven't noticed most of the hip DJ's in your area turntabling like crazy with boxes and boxes full of those outdated LP's (that are the fastest growing NEW segment of the music industry). I guess you haven't noticed about vinyl remixes of everybody, up to and including Taylor Swift...

You know, you REALLY ought to get 'with it' and start to look at what is going on NOW, not back in the eighties

Oh, by the way, you might have noticed that, since we gave up walking to work (or riding buses bikes and carts) we have f*cked up the planet royally with greenhouse gases and can look forward to massive climate change.

But hey... that's progress, isn't it?

That 70's stuff can stick it where the latest scam of glo-bull warming never shines...those dam dinosaurs and their creations of that other scam of Ice age..there's nothing unusual going on fainting sheep> In about 100years it will be revealed we were dopely just creating a source of income to fear preached messages,that were going to be amazed that was so highly accepted!.What your seeing out your window concerning Earth is merely just life evolving like a scratchy,hissless Boney M 8track converted to CD...will the future be found preferable with one single stringed violin replacing everything because well,old is good..perhaps bring back those old air bagged piano's where one could sweat up a storm to make a song of notes with beads of sweat pouring forth..because hey,old is the poop.

[This message has been edited by mr9000 (edited 09-18-2009).]

In short...Old Is New.

Has been that way for as long as I can remember.

Well then, bring back the Ford Pinto,along with 1 or 2 back firing WW2II Russsian muzzle shooters!

[This message has been edited by mr9000 (edited 09-18-2009).]

We had the coolest summer in recent history.
Even had some show last winter. As usual, Louisiana is lagging behind, even in global warming.
DonM

Do you mind if I take a hit off that bong, too...