I've long been an admirer of the musicality of Steely Dan. Tough to beat for originality and keeping it musical at the same time. I don't read music, but over the years I've learned to use 9ths, sus4ths, dims, augs, flattened 5ths, even 13ths on occasion when required. Anyway, I'm asking what some of those complex-sounding chords are that Steely Dan seem to use a lot of the time. It's not worth picking out any particular song of theirs, practically any song they do is full of these rich harmonics. Can any of you trained musicians out there suggest some combinations of two-fisted chording. I'm not sure that I'm asking that they be in any particular key, just as a relational format. Sorry I don't have the musical term for that. As I said, all my music comes from within and I never did get a manual with it. Oh, and sorry about no paragraph breaks in this post, my 'return' key seems to be on the fritz.

Despite not reading (and surely that is something you could work on), I highly recommend "Steely Dan Complete" published by MCA Music Publishing through Hal Leonard.

You get the chords spelled out, plus voicings (close enough) if you read notes. Even a non-reader can find great use from this book, and it being 'complete' you never miss your favorite, maybe more obscure tune...

The Dan TELLS people the trick in one of their songs.

"C'mon man and take a piece of Mr. Parker's band!"

Their methodology starts with the study of Bird. Specirically, "Bebop" and how it changed the music world forever.

Fagen & Becker's songs are actually very simple in construct, often being a typical I, IV, V at the base level. However, the use of the harmonic extensions or even stacking triads with the so-called "pipe" chord, notated often as something like C|Bb -- which in reality is nothing more than the C11 chord, just a different way of visualizing it for the keyboard player -- can take the simple I, IV, V blues change and make it hide from you until your ears become versed in hearing the upper extensions of the chords.

Example of that is "Peg" where we have the basic I, IV, V in key of G going on through the verses. To get to where Peg happens, though, takes two devices. 1st, each chord is suspended and resolved by first playing the 4 of each chord for two beats and then rolling to the chord. Almost the same as playing the suspended 4th and resolving to the root triad, only the 5 note is also expanded to the 6th at the same time when playing it like a sus4. 2nd, they imply the Major 7 extension on each resolution, which is standard Bebop practice, whenever we see a Major chord we know that we can substitute the Major 7 or the Major 6 and get away with it if the Melody allows by not crossing the one with the other.

A very good way to start out is already given to you with that book. Get it.

But don't just simply memorize the chord changes given in that good book, although that would be the starting point, ANALYZE each song using those Roman Numerals and extension numbers. STUDY the charts in sections in an attempt to understand what's happening by simplifying things as I've tried to describe above. As you progress with that, so should your ear and the ability to recognize the same dense chording should you encounter it somewhere else.

Along with that, start learning the works of Charlie "Bird" Parker. A good first Bird tune to learn and internalixe is "Scrapple from the Apple".

Straightahead,


--Mac

I went to my musical library shelves and pulled down my one and only Steely Dan songbook, "Double Deluxe-The Royal Scam/Aja"

After a few pages of pictures, there's a page or 2 on their chordings...

"The Mu Major (moo majer)(MM)chord is the most frequently used stylistic device in the arsenal of music effects responsible for defining and maintaining the distinctive Steely Dan sound. Without the Mu major chord it would be impossible to achieve the airy, modern, almost jazzy quality that the sensitive listener can detect in just about every Steely Dan recording."

Further...

"Note the substitution of a major 2nd in place of a conventional tonic in the chord structure, (in the case of MM, B natural for an A natural in the right hand of an A chord.) Of course, this chord can be built on each side of the twelve root pitches found in most western music. Some of our more harmonically sophisticated readers may know this chord by one of several other names such as "deud de musica (1st expansion"), "major triad avec neoplastic distension" of "M'Lords Consonance." Used only sporadically in most contemporary music, we have found this little honey to be a sine qua non in almost every song we have written to date. All SD members, past & present have come to believe as we do, that the luminous, mystic quality of the MM is capable of greatly enriching the musical vocabulary of our otherwise discordant era. Virtually any piano owner can experience this sonority, when confronted with a major triad, to come down on the keyboard with their thumb just slightly to the right of where it normally would lead. Once you become accustomed to this wholesome harmonic mindbath, you'll soon find yourself sneaking 2nds into minor 7th chords and stacking 4th like a Hindemith gone haywire in Harlem. Inversions of the MM may be formed in the usual manner with one caveat: The voicing of the 2nd and 3rd scale tones, which is the essence of the chord's appeal, should always occur as a whole tone dissonance."

It goes on with examples and chords charts...

Cool stuff...


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Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 09-18-2009).]

BTW -- Bird and Diz and the other original inventors of Bebop used to call it, "Playing from the 9 forward" as a way of explaining the ability to hear and use the natural harmonic extensions of a chord.

Along the way, do not neglect the study of the Tritone and how it relates to the Blues Scale and Blues Chording, early jazz players named it the "flat five" change. In effect, the Tritone is the halfway point between octaves, or six half steps in interval.

Each tritone consists of "only" the 3rd and 7th of a dominant 7th chord. And in reality, that is all you need to imply the whole chord. The bass player's job is to play the root, you see. One should play the tritones and strive to be able to hear the root in their head at the same time.

Here's where it gets tricky, the same tritone actually covers TWO chords. The only difference is the bass note chosen.

For example, the tritone of C7 is an E and a Bb. Play it. Now play it while playing a single C bass note with the LH. Hear that?

Now play the same E and Bb above with the RH, but play a Gb instead with the LH.

Those same two notes are the 3 and b7 of C but are also the b7 and 3 of Gb.

There are only six tritones that cover all twelve keys.

This ispowerful stuff and is at the beginning of playing the all-important (to jazz) Shells with the left hand.

Drill on them daily, preferably to the blues first, in swing time, in all keys.

Because the "Tritone Sub" is a good thing to know at all times. All it means is that if I'm in the key of say, F in the blooz and then that means the turnaround chord is the C7, I know I can substitute the Gb7 in its place. Try playing the C in the bass and playing the Gb mixolydian scale (major scale with b7) with the RH at the same time.

This is where the very simple can get to seem very complex. Worth. The. Time.


--Mac

I wish that had been, "myoo major" there.


The Greeks had a word for it...


--Mac

Sheeeesh after reading all this stuff no wonder why kids today don't want to learn an instrument

"Just make it easy & they will come"

If it WAS easy, it wouldn't sound like that!

You can dumb Einstein down to E=MC squared. But that doesn't mean you actually UNDERSTAND it. Most people can recite Einstein's equation. Less than one in a million know what it means.

'Make it easy, and they will NEVER know how it works'...

Mind you, I sometimes feel jazz educators go out of their way to complicate the already complicated. Forget all the above. Learn about parallel 11ths, 9ths and tritones, 13th chords, the 7#9...

But, if you can't read music, and know nothing about basic chord theory, I'd suggest walking before you run.

Sure, you can learn to PLAY Steely Dan by rote copying. But if you want to UNDERSTAND it, you've got to learn the alphabet before you can read Shakespeare... You have to be able to count before you can read Einstein.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 09-18-2009).]

Thats a good thing, never reveal your hand .............
its "HOW IT SOUNDS" THAT MATTERS every time!

Well informed discussion of Steely Dan chord structure, folks. And, you're right. It's possible to learn to play Steely Dan or other songs by rote, but what's really worth the effort is to learn structure and really apply that knowledge to learning/improving.

Good contributions to a fascinating topic.


Thanks,


Russ

Russ is right. This IS a fascinating topic...and although MAC, Bill, and Diki are all right, it doesn't mean that Donny's post is entirely wrong or doesn't have value (gasp). The guys in the band CHICAGO will get MAC and Bill's points, the Sex Pistols or even the Rolling Stones, will not. All the study in the world MAY make you a competent player but without 'ears' (read 'talent'), you'll never be a GREAT player. Nor will it guarantee you commercial success. Knowing how music 'works' will always augment talent but is no substitute for it.

A lot of it has to do with your musical goals. Although there are some great musicians in Country music (especially in the Nashville studios), the genre' itself is not as demanding as say, playing avant garde' jazz. There is never a legitimate excuse for not learning music theory and we shouldn't excuse the kids that don't want to 'pay their dues', but we probably do need to de-complicate the learning process because you really can scare them off. JMO.

chas

Wow! Excellent insights into what Becker and Fagen are up to. I'll be getting a hold of that book and I know I'll get a good handle on this once I've grasped a few tricks. This has to be very satisfying stuff to play. As I said in my original post, there's such subtlety and musicality in Steely Dan's material. Thank you very much, gentlemen.

Oh, and my 'return' key no longer seems to be on the fritz.

If someone is determined to learn Steely Dan BEFORE they have even learned to read music or learn the basics of chord theory, I'm afraid there's not much you can do about making it not daunting.

The thing is, if you take the time to learn the basics BEFORE you try that complex a music, you WILL be a good enough 'walk the walk' musician to play it. Or, you could take the Dnj approach, and simply sing over a commercial Steely Dan SMF... THEN it would be easy enough, wouldn't it? No knowledge or chops needed at all.

So easy, a caveman could do it...

Here's a few Steely Dan song suggestions for Donny to 'walk' on:

Only a Fool Would Say That
Change of the Guard
The Fez (make a change from a chicken hat )
Daddy Don't Live In That New York City No More and of course,
The Royal Scam

I'll bet he'd prefer "With a Gun', though Well, 'Don't Take Me Alive'!

(We could play this one all day! )

I'm not a fan of Steely Dan...don't find him interesting at all...sorry.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-18-2009).]

Steely Dan (The Duo, not the man) has always been in that special list of acts that were so unique, you could tell it was them more often than not as soon as the tune came on the radio.

Steely Dan, Stevie Wonder, Kansas, ELP, ELO, The Police, Elvis Costello, Stevie Ray Vaughn and The English Beat are just some examples that come to mind. There's plenty more...

------------------
Bill in Dayton

Yeah.... him and Lynerd Sknyerd and that nice Jethro Tull and his band

I think we should all chip in with some musical facts to help bring Donny into the 21st century. Please add to the list:

Fact - Elvis Costello: NOT the love child of Elvis Pressley and Lou Costello.

Fact - Jonas BROTHERS: Not really African-American.

Fact - Celine Dion/Dionne Warwick, no relation.

Fact - Don Cherry: Not a virgin mafia kingpin (he's a jazz trumpter).

Fact - Little Wille John (R&B singer fromn the 50's & 60's -"Fever"): did NOT get his nickname from a vengful English ex-girlfriend.

Fact - Grateful Dead: not Fran's usual audience (after end of first set).

.....and many more things you should know before posting your next gaff. Just trying to help .

chas

Thank you but after loking at this pitiful list I think I'll stay in the dark ages.

Brilliant...and, very funny...you are at the top of your game, sir.

Ian

The Dark Ages are a bit further back than you think. Entertainment was a rather painful affair:
http://www.medieval-castles.org/index.php?cat=31

------------------
Bo pen nyang.

Hey, there's roomm for *everybody*.

I love music.

Lots of the guys and gals I play with frequently don't understand that concept these days, it seems. The heavy jazz players look with disdain towards playing or listening to *anything* else, as do the garage band players, as do the folk singers, as do the lounge lizards, as do the practitioners of R&B, Country, Bluegrass, etc. etc. etc.

I enjoy most all genres, some more than others.

I learn from most all genres.

I enjoy listening to the good, the bad and the ugly, the virtuosos as well as the beginners.

I generally will have suggestions to all on how I think they can improve, too.

"Keep listening. Never become so self-important that you can't listen to other players. Live cleanly....Do right....You can improve as a player by improving as a person. It's a duty we owe to ourselves." --John Coltrane

Music is a life long endeavor.

To paraphrase the late great Andres Segovia, on his 80th birthday, who, when brought up to the mic, stated that for his 80th birthday all he wanted was "another 80 years to try to master the thing" -- there is a humbling nature to the ones who are truly great at it. The Muse keeps it that way.

As with any subject, "Knowledge is Power".

The jazz cats at the Musician's Union Local in NYC back in the day couldn't understand why the great Charlie "Bird" Parker, jazz saxophonist extraordinaire who was one of the early inventors of Bebop and Modern Jazz theory, understanding and practice would put money into the jukebox in the Local Hall's bar and then select Country or Country Western songs, which at that time were more commonly known and identifed by the music publishers of the day as, "Hillbilly Music". They wrote that Bird would just look at them innocently when they would bitch and say, "Man, listen to the *stories*!"

Exactly.


Whether you can only strum a few open "folk" chords on a guitar or can fly up and down the neck with ease, you can still create MAGIC or you can sound not-so-pleasant-to-hear.

Whether you can hold a few basic triads with your LH on an accompaniment keyboard while punching out a few base melodies with RH or singing, or you can sit a grand piano by yourself and play the whole thing manually can be bad in both cases or good in both cases.

PERFORMANCE.

No matter what kind of music you attempt to play, no matter the level of complexity of that music -- or not -- everyone gotta work on their PERFORMANCE.

One last quote:

"Pracice? Sure I practice. If I miss one day of practice, I know it. If I miss two days of practice, my wife knows it. But if I miss THREE days of practice, the whole damn world knows it!" --Vladimir Horowitz


My late father used to tell me the above quote when I was a wee lad learning to blow my trumpet and tinkel those ivories. And he would RE-tell it as needed.

Thank you, Mac. That (and your earlier instructive post) are the best things I've read in this forum for a long time.

Good post, Mac!



------------------
Bill in Dayton

Mac...Chas...Bill, Taike and others. This kind of discourse is wonderful; a major benefit of serious involvement in the enjoyment, creation and evolution of music.


Thanks to all...


Russ

"When I was a child, I played with the things of a child, when I became a man, I put away childish things."

That's somewhere in Proverbs.

Heck, when I was a lot younger I didn't want to delve that deeply into music theory either. And I didn't.

Nothing wrong with being young. Nothing at all.

The youth of today will all too soon be the adults of tomorrow. As long as some few of them learn that the easy and wide path is often the road to destruction, we can count on those few to take the straight and narrow instead. That will assure a "Steely Dan" situation happens for each succeeding generation.

And it is indeed the rarity of the thing that imparts a lot of its value.


--Mac