Don't blame the instrument but the player.

I wouldn't call Miss Nakagawa's playing sleep-inducing. She's an accomplished musician. You should also keep in mind that since home players are the main buyers of the Tyros 3, it makes sense for Miss Nakagawa to play songs that are approachable to such players. The potential buyer should be left with the feeling that they can produce the same stuff. Over-the-top playing will only scare them off. JMO

Regards

Taike

apparently most of the keyboard players out there do. the fantom G is a self contained workstation where everything you need to do production wise is within the unit itself. Same for the Yamaha XS, and the latest Kurzweil. Musicians like options and if you have learned to create music with the instrument you make music on it can be really hard (and uneccessary) to have to adapt to making music with a computer attached. I make all my music with just the PA1X and because thats the way i work i can produce and write eficiently and seemlessley. That way the technology works with me and not against me. If the workstation elemnet was taken away from my arranger i woukd be stuffed creatively.

Wow, what a great read.

This has been one of best threads on SZ for a while in my view. Well thought out and written arguments by everyone.

Bravo!

Dennis

The trouble with the no-computer description is that, for at least twenty years now, computers HAVE been central to making music, to the point that there is a whole generation of mature musicians that feel more comfortable on a computer making a music production, than 'within the box' of a self-contained WS.

Sadly, I only really see either older players or complete technophobes trying for the 'in the box' experience any more. To the point where one of the most popular new additions to WS features is the ability to control external computer DAW's and VSTi's from the keyboard itself. Hardly the sign of a generation looking to rid themselves of the DAW...

Although you CAN put together a pretty decent production withing a WS entirely by itself, I see VERY few players doing that any more...

i hear you Dikki but there are very few musicians out there that put together a traack for people to listen to commercially all by themselves. The finished product is as the result of a team of musicians, producers etc and the workstation keyboard will have been one element of many that went to make the finished product . The workstation, no matter which one, is never going to be used to produce a finished radio ready track even if you use a computer to help. Fully produced music that you and i will hear on the radio requires whole teams of people including technicians , sound engineers,song writers and proucers. I dont think you will disagree with me that it takes a team of people to put a decent commercially ready track out there.

So why does the concept of a workstation continue to exist at all if what i have just said is true? (by the way i am not asking if its true , i know it to be true !)

I suggest because the musician who perhaps created the original song wanted to get as close to what he/she heard in their head in the first place and then hand over te "concept idea" to a producer who will then put the arrangement of the song into sharper focus and pull in the bass players, drummers, horn players ete as they see fit. The workstation however you use it helps the song writer get their ideas accross.

And one more thing. You are right that a lot of young musicians use mostly the computer to make music and not actually any particular instrument itself.....and it shows !! cut and paste music has proliferated the music industry for the lat 25 years to the point where pretty much every song i hear on the radio sounds like the one i heard before and there are more cover versons than original song writing because so much has to be done with copywrite clearance because of the samples used in contemporary music that it is easier simply to get one clearance from the record label for a cover of the song than 20 for each sample that is being used in a "new song".

You will also find that many new producers see themselves predom inantly as that "proucer" and not neccessarily great musicians. Many of them can play a little keyboard, a little guitar, some drums a bit of bass but not actually to a high standard for any. There are exceptions to this obviously but for the most part this is true.

The reason workstations have the capability for both integration into a larger music production system as well as being self contained is because thats how very many musicians work in the real world. If that were not so, then the work staion element could be dropped altogether and all that would be needed was an instrument that could play a stack of VST and nothing else. But the most popular keyboards today and the best selling are fully functional self contained and extended integration capable machines.

Hi Spalding1968
The only reason musicians are not using VSTi extensively, is because apart from the Mediastation and Neko there is nothing that is fully integrated, and musicians don't or can't spare the time to set up the software to match their WS.
Times are now changing, and manufactures are responding to the demand, in that when you now buy most of the latest VSTi, there is a drop down menu that allows you to choose your WS or controller from the list, and the software is automatically set up for you. (The beginning of widespread integration)
With smaller and more powerful computers now available or in the pipeline, (A 64 bit OS is ideal) you will find Lionstracs and other manufactures will start building on the Mediastation/Neko principle to fulfil the demand of WS musicians. (Most of the features/ideas from the big boys are developed by smaller guys and adapted)
Times they are a changing.(This decade has been experimental with the hardware/software link, the next decade will see music playing/production go to levels hitherto unheard of so far)(Software allows flexibility and design beyond anything that can ever be achieved with just hardware alone)

Whatever definition you want to use for Workstation, in fact Yamaha have been using that description for Tyros2 &3 (and possibly Ty1 I can't remember) all the time. (ie. it's not an unofficial/cheeky invention by the current presentor )
At bottom right of the case just below where the words Tyros 2 or 3 are printed and on the front of the Manual it says Digital Workstation. If you connect the Tyros to a Computer via USb and select it in say a Sonar hardware setup menu it shows up as Digital Workstation.

John

I hear you abacus. the point i was making is that musicians dont just want VST integration on their Keyboards. They want the whole package,sequencer, sound editor, sampler etc available on one unit with the potential to integrate it with a larger production system. Its the flexibility that the musician needs and not to have their options restricted. If this is not true then Yamaha and korg and roland all made incredible marketing mistakes and they could reduce their production costs by half and it would have ZERO effect on their sales .....do you buy that ????

here is a great example of a guy that has done all his production on the Neko sequenceing recording, mixing all on the one unit. It is the future of all keyboards and is exactly the way that computer technology should be hidden within the instrument that you use to create the music http://www.youtube.com/user/OpenLabsInc#play/uploads/111/KBjnz4Kectw

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 09-22-2009).]

I am not sure I articulated my point well... I simply believe there isn't the DEMAND from young keyboard players (the meat of the market) to integrate everything, computer, DAW, VSTi's and WS features in one 'all in one' package.

To be honest, I would shudder at the thought of having to do a complete production 'in the box' when faced with those tiny display screens (tiny in comparison to a pair of 24" widescreen monitors, anyway!).

The only reason I can see for putting it all ITB is so that you can carry it around with you more conveniently than a laptop. But, on the whole, who needs a DAW on the go? Most of the really high end VSTi's are not designed for the 'live' experience, and, in all fairness, 'closed' arrangers or WS's get SO close that the extra detail the VSTi offers you is lost on the live listener.

Back in the studio, I would prefer to have all the components separate, to balance the loads better. Maybe in the future, when CPU horsepower gets up to as yet unheard of power, they MIGHT make something that can do it all as effortlessly as the tower computer based systems (and I MEAN 'systems' - one computer isn't generally enough) and as affordably as modern WS's (and arrangers ).

But, as you point out, modern production is a team effort. Why load yourself up with something that can do EVERYTHING (even if it could), when your needs are so much less?

I simply don't see the large percentage of computer based musicians moving wholesale away from the things that make THEM comfortable, to go back to stuffing it all in one small box with a small display. And if that is not an issue, if it is static and has large monitors attached, it begs the question 'Why bother?'... The sytems we have right now do the same job as ably, and considerably less expensively.

This issue, to be honest, was decided back in the nineties, when everybody moved wholesale towards computers, and once we got hooked on how easy it all was when you weren't trying to do whatever it was you were trying to do on a tiny little display, there really hasn't been much of a trend back. I for one would never give up my music production rig for a NeKo, and try to do it all 'ITB'.

BTW, although there isn't much released nationally that is the work of one man, an AWFUL lot of local work, jingles, band production, radio spots, you name it, actually IS done by just one man in one studio.

I wonder how long she's been demonstrating for Yamaha shes really good.