Hi guys.
I'm looking for some advice here. My eldest is 6 going on 7 in 2 months and my wife who spent most her life on stage has kind of directed our daughter down the same path as she has shown an interest in that, but this has come to an abrupt stop this week when our daughter asked straight out to leave the classed we had enrolled her in because she didn't like them.

We think it was the pressure of trying to get dance moves right alongside everyone else that made her feel this way and she's far too young to be pressured into doing anything creative she doesn't enjoy however......

She clearly has the gift of music / arts, but it's starting to look like it's from my side of the family naturally rather than my wife's. I've purchases a Yamaha keyboard for my daughter last year which he loves and plays all the time so now that she's left dance classes we are thinking of starting her off doing keyboard lessons instead.

So how should I proceed ?
I've heard it's not a good idea for daddy to teach daughter as kids can come to hate the lessons in time so do I then go with private lessons and a music teacher.

Any advice would be welcome.

Regards
James

Private lessons along with your total support.

You'd also be able to pick a good teacher, since you know your stuff.

It should be fun for the student at that age...a good teacher can make it fun while teaching proper technique.

James, why not enroll her in a piano class? I mean, if she's interested, of course. The transition from piano to organ or keyboard is easy but not the other way round. Just a thought.

Regards

Taike



------------------
Bo pen nyang.

Thanks Ian.
I posted this elsewhere as well and I'm getting the same kind of response.

Everyone thinks it's a bad idea for me to teach her myself. She would get more of a sense of achievement if someone else teachers her and she gets to show us later what she has learned. Plus the fact it's not daddy or mammy telling her what to do.

There are 3 music teachers in our area so I'll give them a good grilling on the phone today to see which would be the best.

Thanks
James.

Thanks Taike.
That's what I'll do.

I just wanted to know if that's the right direction to take this or teach her myself.

Regards
James

Please do not teach your own child, I taught my sons to play guitar without any success.

When I think of raising children I picture a child when they first start to walk. If you keep holding them they never learn to walk. If you allow them to struggle and explore and only reach for them when it is really needed you then give their best possibility of success.

After owning a Music School with over 400 students I found the best students, the most successful were the ones who were left to their own direction. That in no way says that we stop supporting them, helping them. As a youngster I wanted to play the sax -- my Dad decided I should play a trumpet because my two front teeth were slightly bucked. Ahhhhhhh, my desire for the sax has not left me and after four different tries I still play a not-so-good trumpet.

James, listen to her carefully I am sure you will hear her heart. I call that really loving your child.

IMHO, John C.

James,
DEFINITELY a seperate teacher. My son (12) is learning bass and I am so glad we decided to enrol him with a non-related bass teacher.

I play bass myself (very much part-time) but I would have known enough to get him through the first couple of years.

But as I said, its been a teacher from day one beginners.

Best decision

Dennis

My wife's father taught her to drive which started their relationship on a downhill spiral that lasted until he finally croaked some 40 years later. My advice; don't teach them ANYTHING. Once they grow up and get a job, they can get a therapist and straighten themselves out. Look, just buy them an iPhone, an iPod, a laptop, and a high-limit credit card, and you won't have to even SEE them until they're ready for college. Trust me, it's best for everyone.

chas

James, I have 4 brothers...I'm the oldest. I'm the only one who did not have formal lessons, and I'm the only one who is involved in the music business or plays at all.

I think, as a player, though you might not be the ideal one to give the lessons, you can be very influential in listening to the direction your daughter goes and encouraging her. My daughter playhed flute for several years, until she was in the orchestra and had a fine Artley open hole instrument. She abruptly quit. My good friend, a music store owner, loudly asked, "how can you do that to your dad"? I had to correct him. She DIDN'T do a thing to me, but she made a choice at 15 that was important to her.

My oldest son is my bass player and my grandson is my drummer, and it's a joy. But, although they said that they got interested in music by association with me, I assisted and provided instruments, but did not insist.

Whatever works out, she'll be FINE, and Daddy's joy. Encourage, but don't dictate.

And savor the time together! Appreciate the very great honor of being your little girl's daddy.


That's what it's all about!


Russ

Taike ... I fully agree ... I wish I had studied piano ...

And while the parent obviously has to be a child's primary 'teacher', I think specialized teaching such as a musical instrument is best taught by someone outside the family circle ...

t.

TAIKE & TONY....et al...

I do not agree! No lessons for me at all. My love of music drove me to learn to read the treble clef at age 10 on the church piano...

I listened to music constantly. Learned the melodies and words through my ears. Never had a piano in my home until my very gifted musical daughter received one as a gift from our church when she was 10.

I bought a 12 bass accordian when I first married and self-taught enough to entertain myself and a few others....

In 1994 a friend had an arranger keyboard and I knew that I could learn how to play "basic chords".....

My audiences tell me I am talented and also a great entertainer.... That works for me really well!

I have several friends who did have lessons as children. Only a very few of them still play! My daughter is the exception as are all of you Zonies....

My daughter has two of my Technics arrangers. (I have 3!) She also has her piano and at least one guitar. She composes, sings and plays as well as offers her own "snappy patter" which is what I call "entertaining"....

The lady who taught my daughter to read/play piano asked my permission to do so when she heard my daughter's voice... The teacher/choir director asked her to pick songs she wanted to learn to play and they were off and running! I listened from another room and could not tell which one was playing most of the time!

I really think whether or not a player is good or not has to do with the desire within the individual...

From my own and my daughter's experience... we have both been driven from within to keep learning as we play....

Frankly, I am glad that I did not have any formal training. However, I would have liked having a teacher like the one my daughter had!

Elizabeth..


------------------

Elizabeth ... it is a RARE person indeed who, self taught, will be as accomplished a musician as one who has had formal training ...

But we all set our own goals and levels at which we are happy with what we do ... I am not as accomplished as many here, but I play and sing and people tell me they enjoy it - and PAY me to do it - ... so I am happy ... but would I be happier having had more formal musical training, I think yes ...

t.

I think it depends on the individual, and the drive, like you said, to learn an instrument. Some people are born with more talent than others, but I think all can benefit from some formal training. Take theory eg. I am self taught with the exception of a year of lessons. Those lessons gave me the foundation to proceed on my own. With a little theory, I began to see the structure and rules for forming any chord in any key.
Bernie

Taking piano lessons is a bit controversial with me. The majority of people who ever learned via lessons cannot play a lick today. Why? Because all they learned was how to sight read. Which they forgot, over time. If a child takes lessons and never learns how to play by ear, in 20 years, she probably will have forgotten how to play. And certainly will be lost without sheet music in front of her. I don't know all the answers but whatever it takes, I'd encourage learning to play by ear in addition to sight reading.

A good teacher will teach you how to play music before they teach you how to read music.

Think of it; you don't teach a person how to read before they learn how to talk.

The most important function of a teacher, in my opinion, is to maintain a gradual but interesting level of learning, so that the student doesn't move ahead too fast and get discouraged, or too slowly, and get bored and fed up.

I feel lucky to have had lessons (8 years classical, plus the Yamaha Method)) and be able to read music, as well as charts (including the Nashville number system) and it has allowed me much more freedom in where, and how, I use my craft.

You never know where your child will go in the music business, so it's best to have a good foundation.

It's like learning to read and write, and do basic math....it makes things a whole lot easier.

Ian

Edited to add...

You are never too old to learn how to read music, even if you've spent most of your life playing by ear (or by "air" as it used to be called).

I'm teaching a pro piano player (he plays pretty darn good) how to read Fake Book music...he loves it! He'll be 70 the end of this month. He's doing very well, because he has good musical sense to begin with.





[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 11-20-2009).]

Seems like the topic has shifted from 'should I teach my child myself or get someone outside the family' to 'should a child even TAKE lessons or should they be left to learn to play by ear'. I won't go so far as to say it's a dumb question, but I think the answer is pretty obvious and the supporting evidence is pretty overwhelming. Everyone benefits from (good) instruction, I defy anyone to show me a self-taught, play-by-ear type who can play with the speed, accuracy, and agility of a trained musician, especially on piano. Does anyone in the world think that Oscar Peterson or Bill Evans or even Art Tatum would have been better off without benefit of formal training? Get real. Knowing how to read music doesn't prohibit or inhibit you from 'playing by ear' or improvisation. If anything, it enhances that capability. We all know people with rather good reading skills who can't play anything without the music. These people either have no natural talent OR have no interest in acquiring that skill OR had the kind of restrictive teaching environment that didn't allow or encourage these particular skills. Check the guys in say Jay Leno's or David Letterman's band. I'll bet they are some of the best readers in the business and I also bet that each and every one of them could 'sit in' on any session and jam with the best of them.

Always, always, choose assisted education over self-taught where a specific and complex skill is involved. No matter what 'self-taughts' may tell you (Tony has it right), they all wish they could just whip out a never-before-seen sheet of music and be able to play it, either note for note or embellished, their choice. JMO (which happens to right, in this case ).

chas

Chas is right. A lot of experienced players who are self-taught (including me) will tell you that they really wished that they had had formal training. That includes many very well-known players in every genre; some at the top of their field.

I had to "woodshead" and ask for informal assistance with reading when I started doing studio work in La in the mid-60's, and that has helped me immensely.

Wish I had chased fewer "skirts" and worked harder on getting formal training when I was young.

(Just kidding about regretting the "skirts" part).

Chas is also right about formally trained musicians who are less than stellar in live situations. There are several music professors from the state Universtiy here who are competing in the local market.

I "kick their asses" on a regular basis. They're really no serious competition, but I really do wish I had gotten formal training as a kid.

I was too busy trying to afford food for me and my brothers from the age of 14.


Russ

Irishacts- I can indeed relate to what your going through. My daughter is 6, she takes ballet,tap, choir/drama, violin and piano. I highly recommened you get a teacher that is commited to developing her aural skills and making music fun. The Suzuki method is outstaning in this regard. My daughter does Suzuki violin and has a great teacher. I got my daughter started on the piano using the Bastine books, and trying to incorporate Suzuki principles and it has worked well. After a awile I sent her with a teacher and she progressed even more but it was hard to keep up with both her piano and violin classes plus her other activities. She asked me if I could be her teacher again. We sit down together just about everyday and have fun playing music. I try to encourage, keep things fun, low presure and enjoyable. We do games with the songs she learning and with ear training too. Eventually I'd like to get her with a piano teacher but time is tight and I really haven't found the right teacher.

Thanks a million for all your excellent advice guys. I'll get my wife to have a read of this thread tonight. She's the boss you know

Cheers
James

Assuming your daughter has an arranger keyboard, ideally having some lessons that teach some traditional piano along the way but, most importantly the chord method so she can have quick success sounding good playing real songs. Learning chord piano and being able to play the arranger part using the same correct chords is ideal.

It is important if that's what you want to do is to consider that a traditional piano teacher, even if she is using a method that teaches chords, teaches them in a way that doesn't use all of the chord notes and doesn't translate well to switch from piano to arranger mode.

Example, the traditional piano method of teaching chords is CEG for a C chord and BFG for a G7 chord. You can see this system will take you above the usual split on most keyboards and goes below the lowest note on an arranger keyboard if chords are played all the way to the left. The system that I have found works the best and teach is playing all chords between C - C always favoring the bottom, that is if the chord is Dm7 use the bottom C intead of the top C. It works out better in the long run for comfortable fingering. Later after a student is playing well and fluently other inversions can always be included if desired.

If you consider the piano class option, I would really check that out a lot, because in my experience every child that has had piano class can hardly play.

I'll give you an example. I have a student that I started when he was 8. He is now 11. He has ADHD like you've never seen it. Sliding off the bench, rolling around on the floor, standing on his head during lessons and a lot of variations.

In about 4 months using the chord piano method I mentioned, he played Silent Night in church using 4 part harmony. Everyone was floored.

A mother of an 11 year old straight A student who had taken piano class for about 3 years at the local Junior College was especially floored, because the boy with ADHD blew away what her daughter could do.

The daughter started taking lessons with me and I was astounded at the lack of playing knowledge and ability she had. I've had other students that took piano classes and none of them, even playing at their best sounded like anything. Partly because traditional piano lessons were used exclusively.

I wish you the best in finding a good local teacher. In case you are interested, I do teach long distance lessons.

If you would like any other info that you think might help you find a good local teacher or whatever, let me know, I would be glad to give you all info you might need in finding a teacher everyone will be happy with. I have Skype so I can call internationally if you want to chat.

Best
Scott http://ScottLMusic.com/Lessons

James i teach my daughter keyboard . She is now 10 and started playing seriously about 2 months ago. We have a great time. she enjoys spending the time with her dad and she is progressing in leaps and bounds. she also has a once a week music lesson at school so we combine her formal tuition with her jam session with me. If it works well James it can be a marvelous and blessed time between father and daughter. Dont let that opportunity pass you by without at least giving it a try. It doesnt have to be one choice over another . It can be both.

Just my 2 cents

James - Are we all missing something here? Your daughter wants out of other classes and lessons; does she want to take piano lessons right now? Maybe she needs a little time off to just be a little girl. Just a thought...

Hi guys.
My eldest is 6 who spent most her life on stage has come to an abrupt stop this week when our daughter asked straight out to leave the classed we had enrolled her in because she didn't like them.
------------------------------------------
My daughter would have to go into great detail on 'why the abruptness'?
IF the answer is not acceptable, i would force her to attend 3 more lessons to see if something sweeps her off her feet to once again have a passion return unto her...something stoled her passion..WHAT!?

Yeah good point.

It's not long now to Christmas so I think we will give her a complete break until the new year either way. It will take that long to get her booked in for lessons anyway as all the existing classes running right now don't finish until late December.

It's hard to know what to do. There's no reset button you can press on being a parent

Kind Regards
James

I guess we all have our opinions, and that�s good, but an open mind will always fuel you with more knowledge.

When I asked to play an instrument and that instrument was trumpet, and that decision was made by my dad (Wrong) I was sent to my uncle�s home who played trumpet with the street bands. Hold on for this one; I had to study the reading of music. You call out the names of the notes and you move your hand to the tempo like a conductor. Till this day reading and timing has not been an issue, I paid the price.

I studies trumpet for three years and then turned away.
I took guitar lessons for 7 years and continued with the big pros when they came to New York City.

When I bought my keyboard I promised that I would not take lessons. Reason, learning a great deal about playing your instrument has a tendency to make you play mechanical. We see that in the people who constantly play their well learned scales. As the guitarist Chet Atkins said when asked if he could read music, �Not enough to hurt my playing�.
I decided that I needed to put what I had learned in storage and express my what I was feeling. I now play my impro lines differently on both instruments. I mastered the guitar and I just play the keyboard.

As for reading music, it is simple. If I can teach a child of 6 to read music what�s the big deal. As far as the theory of music I never taught a theory class only enough theory to help them in the present.
AND, if you are not able to read music it is very much like going to the library and being surrounded with knowledge and excitement but you have no way to get it.

Every area has it pros and cons, there is no perfect area.
As for James and his daughter � don�t listen to her words but her feelings, it is there where you become her precious and her friend the rest is only just STUFF. If they end up playing or not is the big deal. What is important is that they have the freedom to select according to their desires and talents and gifts. This in no way puts away your leadership, it remains very important it just operates with a different motive that is loaded with sensitivity.

Wow, did I write all that?

John C.

As I read the responses, I felt that maybe you should ask her? Maybe some downtime and see what comes to the top...

The only post in my neck of the woods was Cass'.

We give our girls the options. You can do this, you can do that, you can do nothing for right now. You tell us.

Seems to be working very well for us so far. Good luck whichever way you go.

(That Cassp is a smart & wise guy!)

------------------
Bill in Dayton

Initially, I decided not to post anything on this thread. However, having raised two fine children of my own, I can unequivocally tell you that the best thing to do is allow them to be kids for a while. They'll discover lots of neat things while growing up, and while they're walking along this path you should be with them every step along the way.

Eventually, they'll decide on their own if they wish to pursue music, either as a hobby or as a career. There are loads of great teaching aids for budding piano players, some of which are online, and one that I highly recommend for youngsters of all ages is Scott Houston's, which can be found here.

For many years I wrote a column that entitled "Take A Kid Fishing," which is something I did with both of my children. They learned a lot just by having fun with good old Dad and catching loads of monster bluegills, bass and catfish. I taught them the basics, how to tie knots correctly, how to bait a hook, how to cast safely, how to hook and land a fish, and how to release the fish with the least amount of injury. After all these years, they still love to go fishing with Dad.

When it came to music, my son picked up a guitar, and taught himself how to play. He quickly learned more chords than I knew existed, his chops were incredible, and within a year he was playing in a rock band. A year later, the band went on a nationwide tour and booked an European tour. Unfortunately, a couple of the band members got involved in drugs about halfway through the U.S. tour. My son packed his gear, climbed aboard a bus and came home. He still gets together with some old friends and jams once in a while, but that's as far as it goes.

My daughter loves music. But, she has absolutely no interest in playing. She's a great singer, but again, no interest in learning how to perfect her voice and sing professionally.

If I had to raise two more children, even at this stage in life, I wouldn't change much of anything I did. I would still opt to let them be kids, take them fishing and boating, and encourage them in any endeavor they choose.

Good Luck,

Gary

chas

Another "gem" from Gary, the Wise!

Absolutely agree!


Russ