Bingo, I totally agree with this. Except that plan B is that... rather than the arranger changing to accommodate contemporary "music," the "music" could change. I can only hope. And I sometimes think that it could, if only, they would. Because many young people gravitate (in the USA) to music us old farts know. From Sinatra songs to 60s / 70s music.

EDIT: And I reiterate -- I agree with Diki's (and others') comments about the problem lying in not enough modern styles. In fact, I have always thought that PERCEPTION is key to young people. They think it's uncool if it has Lawrence Welk type styles on it. I think that if the buyer were allowed to choose the type of styles for his machine, it would be better. Or just remove "old sounding" styles.

I also have stated before... I found some Korg PA styles a few years ago and was amazed at how modern the styles sounded. In fact, I used several of them in my own original compositions. They rocked.

[This message has been edited by SemiLiveMusic (edited 01-27-2010).]

If you are a jazz musician and live for that "interplay"...that unspoken communication...the "give and take"...playing off each other, then you will never be satisfied with ANY arranger, because, in full arranger mode, the arranger is the leader of the group and doesn't "play off" of anyone.

If you are an entertainer and want the most "bang for the buck", you have a whole band available on your left hand.

Two different ways of thinking, and I understand both.

Obviously, I tend to side with Chas, because that's my playing history.

That being said, right now, with pretty serious injury to my left hand, arrangers are the tool(s) that are keeping me working.

A well articulated discussion by all!

I appreciate that!


Russ

[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 01-27-2010).]

Also have in mind that in Europe (as well as in the US) there are many ethnic communities, who want to be able to hear songs from their countries, not "generic" rock, pop, ballads etc.

Many musicians here have an arranger, (usually a Korg something, maybe a Yamaha A1000 oriental) and they use it to create a bunch of user styles reflecting ethnic "niche" music. Korg already has lots of Middle Eastern styles (who have ready most of the ingredients you need to build a so called "modern Greek" style), as well as killer synth sounds and they use them to their potential.

I went to a tavern-like place with some friends, and they had a small band: A stack of 2 keybs (a Korg synth and a Yamaha A1000 oriental) a guitar, 2-3 mics for the orchestra, and a bouzouki. Early in the night, while people were still eating, the guitar and the 1st voice were the main entertainment, along with some piano or pads from the synth. The Yamaha was nowhere to be heard. Then about 1-2 hours later, the time came for the hard stuff!. The Yamaha oriental was turned on, the bouzouki player took a seat, full accompaniment along with left hand bass was started and the synth was never heard of again.

My wife comes from a "kind of" minority. Their music is played with traditional instruments, most "modern" bands though have a PA1/X around... for style as well as lead playing. It does the job wonderfully and it doesn't cost as much as 2-3 band players, nor turns up drunk.

As Diki (I think) once pointed out, if the only musicians that will play with you are drunks, that may say something about you as a musician. Just a thought. For the record, I have never in all my years of playing, had a bandmate (not even a drummer ) show up for a gig drunk. Maybe I've just been lucky. Also, I don't see how the fact that someone is playing 'niche' music changes anything. It's not like 'ethnic' music sounds better when done on an arranger. If you want to use one, fine, I just don't see it as a REASON to use one.

chas

Yes, you are lucky, Chas. I've had experience with some fine players who started out okay, and slipped off the wagon...some slowly, some abruptly...I was there myself one time.

Also, where I live, the pool to pick from is very small, as I'm in a very small town...we don't even have a town drunk...they take turns.

I could move to the big city, and perhaps have more band mates to choose from, but I like living in a small town.

I am lucky to have some buds to jam with, but they aren't into gigging.

Ian

I DID say they SHOWED UP sober, I didn't say they ENDED the gig that way .

chas

I played in a band where the drummer used to smoke three doobies before the last set. He always played okay, not a lot of difference.

well, one night, he must have got an especially potent batch, and after the usual three doobies, we got started on the last set.

Several times during the set, in the middle of a tune, he try and catch my eye, and when he did, he'd look at me wide eyed and mouth the words, "What song are we playin?"

Still gives me a chuckle thinking of the look of panic on his face.

Ian

Thank you to all the comments so far. It’s so interesting to hear everyone’s perspective. Here a few comments:

Chas- While I agree with you that serious musicians tend to stay away from arrangers, I don’t see why that would make the arranger keyboard less popular in the USA. Maybe I don’t understand you. I don’t think you mean to say that US musicians are more serious about music than their “overseas’ counterparts, do you? I had the opportunity to play with musicians from Europe, and Latin America and Asia and I think they take music very seriously. Many of my “foreign” counterparts have had very rigorous training starting at an early age. Maybe there are more hobbits outside of the US?

Ian and mdonrantes, I have traveled throughout Mexico and Canada and concur with you. There is much more activity going on with arranger keyboards than in the US (pro performers, hobbits)

Nedim and George Kaye- yes, sell people do a poor job of demonstrated their arrangers, but I think they are equally as bad with the workstations or any other instrument for that matter.

Jammman- your perspective is very interesting and something I had never really considered. Can you imagine trying to rehearse a band a band in those small living quarters in Europe and Asia? Not to mention trying to hall your gear in those tiny cars. And how could you make it at all profitable with those insanely high gas prices?!?

Diki- I’m not that familiar with modern rap, hip hop and other contemporary styles but could those styles be done on arranger keyboard? Aren’t those styles more riff based and each song has a very specific drum beat? Even so, there are lots of people in the US that don’t get into the contemporary styles.

I really wonder if there is just something different in the American psyche that gives us a natural aversion to arranger keyboards. Perhaps Americans are naturally more inclined to create musical styles than play along with canned tracks?


[This message has been edited by montunoman (edited 01-27-2010).]

The arranger keyboards are difficult to find in Sacramento, CA. I went to the largest local MI dealer, and no arrangers were in stock. Went to Guitar Center, and they had one Yamaha PSR700 in the back of a room with dozens of Casio type home keyboards/pianos. If you can't find one to try, you probably won't buy one. If a dealer doesn't have one to sell, he probably won't sell one.

I've been playing keys in bands since 1964, and have used a Korg PA50 arranger for the past year, and really love the orchestral illusion that it provides. In combination with my wife on guitar, it gives a full sound that has helped our duo get gigs. No small feat in a time when DJs spinning mp3s and crooners singing along with laptops are bumping live musicians out of the few gigs available.

I also have no desire to do what my 27 year old son in Los Angeles does, where his bands pay the clubs to let them perform, and charge at the door to recoup their expenses.

Duane O

Arranger Artists.....that could work.

-mike