I'd like to know if you think manufacturers design things in a stupid way on purpose. Like a vocal harmony that does not have a light on it, so that you cannot tell if it is on or off. Many other things. Such as a vocal harmony button that you certainly would use if you are gigging... and you can barely reach it, it's so far away. Who, in their right mind would design something like that?

List your gripes. And if you think they do it on purpose, expand, please. Why would they do this?

They do little bad things on one model so that they can make the next model sound like an improvement by fixing the little bad things on the prier model. A good business technique.

They put the button far away so that you go out and buy one of their foot pedals. On top of that, people that design these things are engineers, not gigging musicians!

As genesys said, if they designed it right the first time, what would entice you to buy the new model.

Finally, YES they do it on purpose. Millions of dollars are spent on market research and methods to reach into our pockets, for as little cost as possible. They will not spend any money to create something new and spectacular because they know that we will buy their stuff anyways. In a sense, one could say that they are exploting our emotional attachment to music and new toys!!!

They know exactly what we would like to have in a keyboard, but it is so much more cost effective to include it in incremental steps.

[This message has been edited by hitman (edited 02-10-2010).]

Unfortunately, most arranger keyboard manufacturers spend little or no time at all obtaining input from consumers. And, I sincerely believe that most of the folks in the R&D department have never been in front of an audience as an OMB entertainer or group performer as a musician or singer. Consequently, you end up with features you'll never use, buttons that are rarely accessed by anyone other than someone in a studio setting, and vocal processors that are marginal at best. I'm equally confident that if a manufacturer DID spend some time talking with individual players such as those that frequent this, and other, similar forums, they would come up with a great keyboard that had all the features we've been hoping to see for more than a decade.

The flip side of the coin is that arranger keyboards have so many features that you could literally spend years learning how to effectively use all of them. Keep in mind, however, that most arranger keyboard user manuals are so poorly written that if a novice tries to learn the inner workings of his or her keyboard by reading the instructions, they will go completely insane. Thankfully, forums such as this one, and those dedicated to specific brands of keyboards are loaded with knowledgeable folks that can provide answers to most of the questions not addressed in the manuals.

Cheers,

Gary

Gary,

Thats about as accurate as anyone can get and who pray tell manufacture 90% of the KBARR!

Regards

As far as deliberate sabotage, I think that it goes on occasionally for lower models.

I think that Yamaha deliberately keeps the TALK ON/OFF and VOCAL HARMONY ON/OFF buttons off the PSR-S910 because there is not very much feature difference between it and the Tyros 3 while there is such a big price difference.

I thought of sabotage with the PSR-700 - the top midrange keyboard of the time about 12 years ago - which didn't have a floppy drive even though this was widely available. You only had 1mb of memory.

I really thought of sabotage when the PSR-2000 and PSR-2100 came out. The predecessor, the PSR-700 had two intros and endings, as opposed to three for the top dog, the PSR-9000. They gave the PSR-2000 and one year later the PSR-2100 three intros and endings with only one button each to activate them. You had to go into a submenu to choose your intro or ending! This was so inconvenient, that I missed the mere two intros and endings on my previous model.

They also had to shuffle through floppies on these models even though there were many other cheap mass storage options that had been available on computers for years.

Starting with the PSR-3000, I feel like Yamaha started to get things right.

I do get frustrated though. I have a patter between songs that makes me need to use the TALK ON/OFF function, and I get frustrated that there isn't a dedicated button. At least once a performance, I start a song with the TALK on which takes away all the reverb from the song and voice.

Beakybird

lol. I don't think its deliberate...just when the Patrician hardware and software designers "forget" to ask the Plebeian musicians!

Arrangers have always been designed for the home player not the gigging musician, (That pros use them just shows how versatile they are) so the priorities are different.
Sorry to say, but if you expect to see items specifically for the pro player, then you will need to avoid the arranger, as you’re not really considered during development.
If you look at most OMB over the world, they use a keyboard workstation and/or organ with a separate computer or module for the backing, (Ketron seem to be the de facto standard for backing modules) not an all in one arranger.

Bill

sorry...double post

[This message has been edited by Tonewheeldude (edited 02-11-2010).]

Definitely in the UK Tyros is blatantly targeted at ex home organists, Korg is somewhere in between and have a strong Arabic/oriental following here. The only exception are Ketron who make instruments primarily for professional/semi professional musicians.

TWD

I don't think they deliberately sabotage anything. I agree that most engineers are probably not players of the keyboard they are designing and most keyboards are not made with live, on-the-fly maneuvers in mind. Other than that, I think that Gary pretty much said it all for me.

Manufacturers do not sabotage us-they sabotage themselves.

Case in point. I was THIS close to picking up an MM8 but there were two things wrong.

One-You couldn't pan anything.

Two-NO Timpani patch,or ,so I initially thought. Imagine my surprise when,months later, I found out from someone that the timp patch WAS on the MM8 BUT it was filed under "organs".How stoopid is that?

Eventually it all worked out because I decided once and for all to jump into the computer-based world where,for slightly more $$ I plan on getting a complete(at least to me) rig.

BUT,that's still X amount of bucks that Yamaha never saw from me.

I'm afraid I said this a little earlier, but it seems apropos on this thread. I think that the arranger marketing teams spend too much time listening to their main customer base, and too little time listening to MUSICIANS...

And, if that sounds harsh, just consider where the bad rap that arrangers have really comes from... Arrangers are bought in huge numbers by people that have virtually NO musical ability or experience. But THOSE are the people that the companies poll. Most of those people never even use a fraction of their purchase's capabilities, so how would they even KNOW whether a light is needed for the VH section on/off, or which buttons are most used, or whether a Chord Sequencer is a valuable MUSICAL tool..?

If more attention was payed to the forum input (people that CARE enough about the bloody things that they bother to write about it) than to dilettantes that let them sit at home gathering dust and don't even PLAY well, these things MIGHT start to be practical again. But we have seen how the bean counters and MBA weenies have taken over most of the rest of our lives. Why should the arranger be any different?

Agree 100%.
I have actually heard that most feedback is gathered from the dealers (applies to YAMAHA specifically, but probably true for others),
who have their little clans during those input meetings. Now I heard this from a person who is a yamaha dealer in Europe and he said that most of his ideas were simply ignored. His guess is because he did not belong to any of those "clans" mentioned.

Everyone is saying that they design these for the hobby player who can't really play. I don't get that. Why would they put these extra 90% of the features on here that a hobby player who can barely play will NEVER even know what they even are, much less invoke them? Surely a big part of their consideration is people like us.

And to have a key feature on an arranger and then REMOVE it in the next model? And in anyone in their right mind would NOT remove it? I don't get it.

And as for a vocal harmony button light, wouldn't a hobby player, at home playing for his dear little wife, want to know whether the button is invoked or not?

You have R&D departments whose sole job is to design the best machine they can. You have all these gee whiz features and basic, KEY features are somehow overlooked or REVERSED model to model? It doesn't make sense. Except that the dollar always prevails... it surely has to do with dollars. Surely they can't be this stupid.

All the features that most home players won’t use are there to allow the demonstrators to wow the audiences with their use, and so spend their hard earned readies thinking that with a little practice they can do the same. (Remember the furore over the T3 piano which no one could get to sound like the demo)

Bill

Semi... ever worked for a club or restaurant that was just about perfect, then had a management change, and they went and changed everything, usually for the worse?

That's what happens in arranger design, I am convinced. New people come in, old people leave, and the things which one had learned from long experience get forgotten. As volatile as the industry is, as bottom line orientated as business has become, I rather doubt that any arranger R&D team remains intact, or even in the same charge, as it used to be. Lessons learned become forgotten, and new people need to change things to justify being there. Seldom for the better, it usually ends up...