Oh, and just to reiterate my point...

Let's assume that your self-produced styles are SO good, that you decide to go into business, and sell them, as a way of recouping your costs (and maybe make some money!). Now how are you going to feel, after you sell one or two, and then see them copied and used widely by people that haven't payed you a single lira?

Maybe NOW you understand the point I'm making...

You have a MUCH better chance suing someone for unauthorized use of your style if there is an audio loop component to the style. It is EASY to prove in court that it IS your work, no-one could have made an identical loop to you. Someone has a big hit using your style without buying it, you stand to make a LOT of money...

Sounds good, now, doesn't it..?

i get your points, so do not loop your words, lol.I can not speak or write English but i understand your words becouse they are not new they are looping and looping again(I'm kidding)

what i say is that there is no audio loops within the Ketron pat format files. pat file is just midi files encrypted but Ketron format. the loops from ketron hardware can be sampled but you do not know how ketron use them( are they sliced and saved as drumkits? are they one loop and not sliced? how they are saved on harddrive? which loops are used in which style?............)

but there is still another option, third party styles or buy Ketron SD2 module.

did you get my points now?

and if some members here think that they can now play ketron audya styles with ketron audya orginal audio loops on lionstracs i have to disappoint them, you get a style without audio loops. until you buy a SD2 module. you most have sd2 sound module for that. or soon third party audio styles. or maybe they used by livestyler.de other loops then ketron loops for that, we do not know that!!!!!!!!!!!!!




[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-12-2010).]

Well, seems we're BOTH 'loop-ing' alot, here.

I get your point, but buying an SD2 module does NOT give you the right to use factory styles without buying them. And, in all fairness, people LIKE the Ketron styles primarily for the ones that DO have 'Live loop' components. They are what make them stand out head and shoulders above the rest.

I am well aware of how Ketron implement their loop technology on older Ketron's AND the new Audya, please don't insult my intelligence by suggesting I don't. But whether the audio component of the loop exists as sliced up data for a MIDI file to play it (which is basically how they do it) on a ROM chip or HD, it CAN (and will) be copied. You only have to solo the audio track playing the SD2, and slow it WAY down to get the slices to play without much cross-fading (if any, if you slow it down enough) and you can easily record the results for use on the MS, or the Ketron player. All it does it output MIDI. Make a GIGA preset or any other VSTi sampler preset of the data, and you can play it as if you had an Audya (after all, who's going to want old SD1/5 styles, especially when it's easier to copy the HD data on an Audya and get the same files?). From what I read from others here (correct me if I'm wrong) the Audya's audio loop data exists as easily copyable .wav files. Seems altogether TOO easy to copy, if you ask me...

But basically, if Ketron lose their revenue stream from people buying their arrangers to get the styles because they are playing them on software either on an MS or even into an SD2 module (which makes Ketron a FRACTION of the money they would get selling an SD5 or Audya), they are going to make less and less of them. And they make few enough already!

I hope you understand the point I've been 'loop-ing' now, AFG. It's a complex issue, that has long-term consequences for the industry, and those that love Ketron products and styles...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 03-12-2010).]

maybe i am wrong read this someone played ketron audya style with live audio drums on lionstracs groove link:

http://www.wersi.co.at/forum/replacement-for-wersi-t1381.html

maybe they have replaced other loops then orginal one to the style, like i said before, domenico or nobert most answer this i think

They will be producing their own styles and loops for the groove, just like they produced styles and samples for Wersi OAS instruments.
NOTE: As it is an Austrian dealer, (They also sell Wersi, Ketron, Roland and Orla) the styles and loops will be more European focussed, just like the styles and samples for the Wersi instruments. http://www.tastenpoint.at/shop/index.php?cPath=29 (Not all links work at the moment as he is currently rebuilding the database after a crash)
Hope this helps

Bill

If you think that most people are going to go out and suddenly start producing their own professional loops that integrate with existing Ketron styles, I am positive you don't know most arranger players!

The vast majority of them don't even EDIT the styles they have, let alone make new ones even in MIDI. And recording and producing pro quality loops, slicing and dicing them and integrating them into a style is a task beyond even 1% of all arranger users.

No, this technology is going to be used to pirate Ketron's audio styles, plain and simple.

As I said, if you WANT to make your own styles from scratch, and incorporate your own loops into it, you don't need the Ketron style player at all! You already HAVE that capability. The reason the Ketron style player is being greeted so warmly is that people will now be able to play Ketron's copyright styles without buying a Ketron. There's simply no other way to look at it.

Sorry.

Diki.
Can you show me where Ketron say that their styles are copyrighted ?

lol... No ? Thought so.

Regards
James

One thing people are forgetting from this discussion is that when a manufacturer sells an arranger, they are not selling the styles.

That is why the style is not copyrighted to the manufacturer.

The manufacturer is selling the hardware unit.
The hardware unit integrates styles, sounds, OS and build quality in to one unit. That is what the manufacturer is selling.


Even if the MS can play Audya or any other arranger style (whether midi or audio) is not something that a manufacturer is too concerned about.
Because an MS is not an Audya.

An MS does not have all the Audya’s sounds, sthyles, OS, build quality integrated on it. Audya on MS is a poor man’s way of an Audya.

And, if you still don’t get what I am saying, if you still do not get the concept, try this.

If the MS samples a piano sound from the Korg M3, and then says the MS can play that wonderful sound from the Korg M3, do you think Korg is going to loose sleep over that?

In fact, that has been happening for years.

Yamaha have successfully got online sites from distributing their current styles. If there's no such thing as copyright, how do you suppose they accomplished that feat?

Take a look in the fine print of your manual, or search through their website carefully. You'll usually find an EULA that specifies how and where you can and can't use their styles. As I've been saying for a while, enforcement varies, some police them carefully, especially the latest, greatest that they put out. And enforcement is problematical, with MIDI data being so universal. Very tough to prove that a style is their own work if any editing is done to it. But audio is as easy to prove as DNA, and the same laws protect audio in the form of mega-hits as does a loop library.

C'mon, James, you can't be serious. You know that your sample libraries for sale are protected by the same intellectual property rights as the loops in a style. Are you saying then that anybody can copy your commercial sample libraries, and there's nothing you can do about it? If so, send me some examples, and I'll sell them and use them without paying you a penny...

There's an AWFUL lot of wishful thinking about this subject going on here, and VERY little educated opinion. If you don't know copyright law, if you don't know whether something is protected by law or not, do you think it is a good idea to just go ahead and PRETEND that there is none?

Try contacting Ketron directly, ask them if it OK for you to copy the audio data from their Live Drums styles and use their styles for free, without buying a Ketron product whatsoever... Best of luck with that one!

Look, I can come round to your house and steal your stuff, I can even blog about the fact that I am going to do it, and that I don't believe that there is any law against it... but that won't change the fact that I will get arrested for doing it (if caught), and pleading ignorance of the law will not get me the tiniest break. I'll still go to jail, and deservedly so.

And I am appalled at the act of reading a provider of copyrighted content somehow claiming that there IS no protection for anybody else's work. Somehow, I have a feeling that James would vigorously defend his OWN rights to his labors, if infringed, but somehow doesn't think that applies to HIM if he wants to steal something...

Hi

I can not understand that some persons can not understand the term "copyright".

Copyright = "the right to make copies". This right belongs to the creator. Period. (A novellist has the copyright to his novel; a composer has the copyright to his music; a style creator has the copyright to his styles etc.)

The creator can of course sell the copyright. But having bought a copy does not give you the right to make copies.

Is this hard to understand?

Regards
Jørgen

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