http://www.yamahapkowner.com/?p=2011

If only they would get rid of the compressed sound they could be really top notch, as it is IMO they are fine for an MP3 player but if your used to live music, they suck big time. (When will Yamaha get out of the poor quality MP3 sound rut)

Bill

What we need is for some member that has purchased these to post quick style only demos (no RH) with the T's compressor switched off, and the drums and bass bumped a hair. I've got a sneaky feeling that some of Yamaha's compressed sound comes from having that on... and being mixed a bit light on the drums.

Considering their market (home players) this makes sense for them, but I'm sure they are hurting their sales with some of the pro's by making the demos so undynamic...

I don't think Yamaha's can't sound more dynamic Diki. I have listened to many demos and even the Tyros 3 sound very weak and cheesy in my ears. Only good for elevator music.

[This message has been edited by FransN (edited 02-17-2010).]

I just downloaded both styles...very nice, and both very useful, especially RosenPop...they sound great on the S910...perfect for my next CD.

Now, it's off to the elevator....I knew the music business had it's "up and downs" but this is ridiculous.

Ian

PS...guys, don't get mixed up and try playing on an escalator...they say it's brutal.

Thats what happens when you put a 15+ year old sound engine in a keyboard.

AWM2 so needs to die at this stage.

My 2 cents.
James

My last Yamaha keyboard was the Yamaha PSR 730 and this keyboard already use AWM2 and the XG voices. Now many years later they still use the same sound engine and are more expensive then in the past. How to make profit

Plenty of hit music made on that 15 year old engine, James. Particularly for more classic styles, what's WRONG with the engine?

Now, the samples themselves, or the way they are programmed and played, yep, that could maybe do with an upgrade, but in all fairness, for preset patches, what really needs to be changed on AWM2 (that's what a T3 uses, right?)..?

For sound designers, synthscape creators, players of cutting edge musics, perhaps the engine alone can make all the difference, but I can't for the life of me think what an ENGINE upgrade is going to do to help a blues style, or some Bigband, etc..

Better samples, more dynamic velocity curves and velocity cross samples (all doable with the engine they have) would all make a noticeable difference in the drum sound (which basically sets the tone for the whole style), but an engine upgrade without addressing the core issue of better samples in the first place wouldn't really help, IMO...

Hey, Ian, when you've finished riding the elevator, how about showing us what CAN be done to make Yamaha's more 'live' sounding? I'm pretty sure it can be done...

Yamaha's AWM2 is a classic...why fix it if it ain't broke?

Add SA1 and SA2 voices to the mix, and you've got the classic, and yet, contemporary Yamaha sound.

Keyboard Magazine (March 2010) said, "Sounds are among the best available in
any keyboard. Yamaha�s Styles for live
solo performing are the best in the business."

And to conclude the review...

"Still, it�s hard to argue with success,
and as it is, the Tyros continues its reign as
the benchmark of stage arrangers."

You guys need to get out more...expand your world a little.

Ian

But Ian you said that some voices on the Roland GW8 sounded old. And some people also said this about the Korg PA50 who use the Triton engine. And both instruments has a younger sound engine then Yamaha. And about the reviews they get paid by Yamaha to write a good review. That also belong to their marketing success. And they can write what they want but I trust my own ears.

[This message has been edited by FransN (edited 02-17-2010).]

These styles have been around for a while. I have the T2 version. I don't know if someone passed them along to me or if I had purchased them.

To my ears and on my keyboard, these styles sound great, especially the 70's bossa.

I only wish they were brand new styles that I don't already own.

Beakybird

Use all the excuses and justifications you like, Frans...don't matter at all to me.

The PSR-S910 also got a terrific review in Keyboard Player.

They probably got paid too, eh?

Sure, buddy, sure.

Believe what you want.

Ian

I have review sites myself and I know how it works. Believe it or not.

FYI - AWM2 is what is used in the Motif XS line. I own a Motif XS and you have to be joking if you think that sound engine needs to "die" - go and play one on a Logitech Z2300 system and spend more than 30 mins

The PSR S910 and Tyros 3 uses AWM1 and to be honest there is a massive difference in the clarity against the Tyros 2. (i have never used the Tyros 3 so i cant compare but the S910 is very far from sounding compressed.

And yes I have previously owned a Roland GW-8 and a Korg PA 800. the Roland didnt phase me but the Korg had a nice crisp sound compared to the Tyros 2 but had very outdated synth and pad voices. Most of the styles to me were outdated as well (reminded me alot like the Technics styles).

The S910 through a Logitech Z2300 sounds amazing. Its unfair to make assumptions of its quality if you have only heard it through small PC speakers / headphones or the on board speakers.

-Nick

Hi Diki



A hit song is not dependant on the keyboard you use, a hit song is a hit because the song is great.

Either way there is no excuse for Yamaha to keep using the same plastic sound engine for over 15+ Years. Not when the company is Yamaha, the same guys who built the DX-7 and invented something as amazing as VL-Technology. For them to sit back on AWM2 is an utter insult to Yamaha end users at this point.

Yamaha simply gave up trying to be innovative. I can't think of 1 product in the last 10 years that offered something unique.



The engine and the samples are the problem. The engine is far too old now and it lacks any depth. It's basically only a slight step above a crude ADSR engine with basic functions powered by highly compressed samples.

Yamaha don't even care enough to update the engine to include include compatibility with any known Sample formats that support Multisamples.



Just look at what DNC Technology did for KORGs sounds when they put it on the back of their EDS Engine and RX Technology. Everything on the keyboard was effected instantly by it.

Where on the other had you have Yamaha milking people with fake technology. Mega Voices are not a technology at all, it's simply a layered multisample and basic function.

Sometimes I wonder are Yamaha intentionally treating people like idiots. The new Tyros 4 will come with 10 extra �Mega Voices� and they will actually list how many extra sound it has in order to fool people into thinking they are getting something really big in the new keyboard.

Where a KORG users can add as many DNC Voices to the hundreds they already have at no cost at all and no need to buy a new keyboard.



Think if it this way, it's like connecting an MP3 Player to a 15 year old crap amp with poor DA Converters. Just because it says it can do something doesn't mean the quality is acceptable.

It's just plastic, compressed and very boring.

That said, the things that are annoying to one person might be acceptable to another. Yamaha's selling point is their keyboards are dead simple to operate. They are dead simple because they are dead basic. Which is what some people want.

Open the box, turn it on and that's it. Instant good sound by their standards.

Nothing wrong with that at all, I just have no respect for Yamaha for dropping the ball on all the great technology they once had. I have a Yamaha VL 70M myself and their WX-5. Will never sell them as they were the last innovative product that ever came out their factory doors.

Cheers
James

So you think it sound great and you want me to go and listen to it through a pair of cheap Video Game Speakers intended for a Home PC ?

No thanks.
James

Instead of invented something new now all that money goes to the marketing machine of Yamaha.

Quoted by Irishacts:

Just look at what DNC Technology did for KORGs sounds when they put it on the back of their EDS Engine and RX Technology. Everything on the keyboard was effected instantly by it.

Where on the other had you have Yamaha milking people with fake technology. Mega Voices are not a technology at all, it's simply a layered multisample and basic function.

Sometimes I wonder are Yamaha intentionally treating people like idiots. The new Tyros 4 will come with 10 extra �Mega Voices� and they will actually list how many extra sound it has in order to fool people into thinking they are getting something really big in the new keyboard.

Where a KORG users can add as many DNC Voices to the hundreds they already have at no cost at all and no need to buy a new keyboard. / Quote

James - are you funded by Korg??

Korg HAD to introduce the DNC sounds into their "TOTL" boards for FREE for one simple reason - to keep them in the game.

I had a PA 800 during the transition and the whole reason for the DNC sound set was to be able to keep up with Yamaha's SA technology.

- And they still cant get an acoustic guitar or a sax/trumpet/brass to sound as good as what Yamaha have produced.

Its good they released DNC, its even better it was for free. but your comments are far from accurate about Yamaha's sound engine.

-Nick

Yes and Yamaha can't get the drums, bass piano epiano synth etc sounds right. Maby you are funded by Yamaha Nick?

[This message has been edited by FransN (edited 02-17-2010).]

Nope, I just know what I'm talking about.



Nope...... not true.

KORG have the most advanced sound engines of any Arranger and you won't find one single person here who can say otherwise. RX Technology was first implemented on the Pa1X and KORG's answer if you will to Yamaha's Mega Voices was to simply issue an OS update that expanded the Sound Engine to support 16 OSC's.

So Yamaha users had to buy a new keyboard and KORG users got a free OS udpate.

DNC is an entirely new technology and an evolution of the EDS engine and RX technology.

Yamaha have nothing that can reproduce DNC Technology and it's something that cannot be faked like the implementation of their Mega Voices was.

James

Don't bother arguing, Nick, you're dealing with very desperate people.

Bitterness oozes from their posts, mixed with the juice of sour grapes and the smelly sweat of envy...a nasty concoction, resulting in a very unpalatable whine.

You'll get nothing but pure negativity dealing with this lot.

My work is done in this thread...I'm off to enjoy more interesting and far more friendly companions.

Ian

Truth. It's hard to handle.

Ian - your 100% right. Its like dealing with insolent kids on the schoolyard.

James yesterday I listened to the styles on your site and they are very good so I wanna buy them. Do you know if they are compatible with the PA500 Musikant? Are you planning to create more styles?

99% sure it's a yes, if not I would give a refund.



Believe it or not, they are not my work. Everything else on the site is, but the styles are by Salvatore Mirabile and I'm just the exclusive the reseller for him.

I'll ask the question though. He's likely working on something new, but he hasn't said anything to me yet. He's a good programmer. Hope he's working on some generic styles and not just song specific.

Cheers
James

Haven't heard a word of TRUTH anywhere in this whole thread, boys... Play nice, it's all nothing but OPINION.

Sorry, James, but put tired old Triton samples in your whizbang engine, damn thing doesn't sound an iota better. And DNC - what a joke! At least Yamaha tie their more 'closed' SA2 technology to highly crafted samples to leverage the technology. Where's the CONTENT from Korg to do the same? MIA, old boy...

Korg may have built the engine, but they failed to provide any fuel for it. So there it sits, looking pretty, going nowhere... waiting for the PA3Xpro to actually USE the horsepower.

Bottom,line, as you have found with your V-Machine is that you don't need a state of the art engine anywhere NEAR as much as you need great samples in the first place. And especially for drums, you need virtually NO fancy playback features. You just need great drum samples in the first place, then you need great performances on those samples to drive a style. All of which is MORE than possible without a single change to AWM2.

I've heard amazing performances from the MoXS, basically due to how good its' basic samples are in the first place. And, to be honest, I haven't heard a damn thing from Korg and the M3 that shows any improved degree of realism. Personally, unless you are a sound designer, it boils down to how good the raw, basic samples are in the first place...

What has amazed me is, after all the comments about the basic Yamaha drum sound, they keep trotting out new choir sounds, trombone sounds, things like that which don't affect the basic sound of the instrument. But they make REALLY good drum products, and really good electronic drum products, and by now you would have thought a set of TOTL DTX samples could have made its' way to the Premium content section.

What's the hold-up?

Yes I could use some more generic Dance and Disco styles.

I have ordered the styles. Will try them tomorrow.

If we got rid of everybody who is old here, who would be left?? I know I'm not quite obsolete yet................-charley

Your "truth" will have "genuine" instrument players in stitches!

Come on Diki. Just listen to the demos on youtube and on the Yamaha sites with a good headphone and anyone can tell you that Korg sound much better and powerful then the Yahaha PSR series and the Tyrosses. And I was nice but I am called a child so maby I must behave as one.

Please explain

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1KCy3l-A...rom=PL&index=33

Ok a orchestra. What is your point?

.

[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 02-17-2010).]

I give up!

Do these Tyros 3 styles work on a Tyros 2?

I love the fact that you need this explained to you in black and white.

what it means is - your so called version of the "truth" is an absolute joke to anyone with minor knowledge about keyboards.

you are stubborn and unreasonable and proven wrong everytime a Yamaha keyboard is switched on.

-Nick

http://www.motifator.com/index.php/support/xs_audio_demos/ Play the demo Funkalicious.

If AWM2 is so terrible, why does this sound amazing...?

I'm afraid I'm not really turned on by the engine inside my keyboard. I don't wake up with a woody because I can stack more oscillators than the competition. All I care about is something that sounds real, sounds punchy, sounds like something I'd be proud to play...

Anybody here that would be ashamed to make that demo?

Didn't think so..

BTW, Frans, you stick to listening to stuff through your headphones. I'm perfectly fine playing all MY computer and music audio through a 24bit converter into my Mackie HR824's.

Obviously some of the posters here have not yet read my previous posts & reviews, (Understandable as they have been spread over a number of years) however it is only the T3 I have issues with (I haven�t heard the S910 so can�t comment) as the rest of the range is fine, because they have a nice CD quality sound (Not my cup of tea, as I prefer a more live sound) which is great, the T3 on the other hand really is a dog, as apart from the SA voices it just sounds so compressed.
I regularly go to live music venues, (One of the advantages of where I live) so know exactly what live instruments and players sound like, and I can give you a 110% absolute total guarantee that apart from the SA voices, T3 doesn�t even get onto the bottom rung of the ladder.
The closest hardware board to real sounds (Personally) I find to be the Korg/Ketron range (With or without DNC) as they really do sound more like a live band.
The above is why I never compare boards with boards. (I only compare boards with live sounds)
BTW If you are after Jazz & Big Band sounds, one of the best value ways is this http://www.garritan.com/products_jabb.html (They really do sound like real instruments, and at an amazing price)

Bill

My excuse for not understanding every English sentence.

[This message has been edited by FransN (edited 02-18-2010).]

Hi guys,

Sorry to butt in, but I really felt compelled to ask why things become so personal between you guys?

We've always known that the sound of each keyboard is always subjective and that means it's of one's personal choice, it doesn't necessarily mean that one is better than the other, not anymore anyway.

None of the keyboards that have been mentioned here sound bad in any way shape or form, they just offer a different sound, more like an alternative and I think that having choices is a very healthy thing.

Having owned many keyboards over the years and gained a lot of experience with each one of them, I've always been proud and delighted to have owned every single one of them, it was a pleasure to explore each one and finding myself on an amazing musical journey which has taken me to the T3.

After now owning the T3 for nearly a month, I am finding it hard to understand how on earth they can improve the sounds and styles, surely it can only be negligent or cosmetic, or so it seems like it. As much as I've been impressed with the T3, it isn't THAT vastly superior to my PA1X and that's because the Korg was already great, and that's a 6 year old board. When I first put on the T3, I didn't get the WOW factor I got when I first opened say my GEM WX2 or PSR8000 as they were significantly better than their predecessors, that trend I think has ended because there is really only so much you can do to improve a sax or piano sound before it reaches a limit where it just can't get any better - just different and I think that's where we are now.

I hope I've made some sense but I think I know what I've been trying to say, I am just loving my hobby and the pleasure it's given me over the years no matter on what keyboard it's been on, the feeling has always been the same

Take Care
Danny.

Well Danny, James nor I became personal. But if I say something negative about Yamaha then I am called desperate,insolent a kid,bitter, i have minor knowledge about keyboards,stubborn and unreasonable. All the things I said was against Yamaha not the person who played a Yamaha. I have played for more then 10 years on Yamaha keyboards so I know what I am talking about.

Frans, how can you enjoy something if you don't even like it? And then suffer for 10 years?! In this case you've no one to blame but yourself, mate, as it has nothing to do with Yamaha at all.

Regards

Taike

------------------
Bo pen nyang.

No you don't understand. I know what I talking about because I have played a long time on Yamaha keyboards. Ofcourse I liked them. But now many years later they still sound the same in my ears. So I change to Korg with no regret.

Sorry, I misunderstood. But why let it bother you since you play and enjoy a Korg keyboard.

Regards

Taike

------------------
Bo pen nyang.

You are right it shouldn't bother me
What keyboard do you have Taike?

[/b][/QUOTE]
You are right it shouldn't bother me
What keyboard do you have Taike?[/B][/QUOTE]

Acer Aspire 5735Z

No keyboard since I moved back to Taiwan from Laos. I play a Yamaha Stagea in a local music shop, though. The Korg PA2xPro tickles my fancy. One major part is its organ voices. And later on add a midi board and pedals. The organ remains my favorite instrument after all. Basically I like about anything I can lay my hands on. Beggars can't be choosers.

Regards

Taike

------------------
Bo pen nyang.

Hi Danny,
I agree with everything you have stated above.

I am pretty sure I can speak for people like Ian, Dikki and Taike by saying we don�t give a crap if people do or do not like Yamaha or any other keyboard in particular. That�s nature and people have choice � nothing wrong with this at all.

What really agitates people and turns things into a personal war is when you type a post trying to be as respective and delicate as possible to ALL people who read the forum, and you get absolute simplistic responses that just rubbish everything you�ve said above. And the accusations in those responses are completely false.

I fell victim to it, so did Ian and Dikki in this thread� and what it results to is people just opting to stay out and not bother responding because the bullies are controlling the conversation and no one can input their opinions respectfully.

I am sick and tired of people like Frans who act like the way they do towards others and then use the fallback line �I am only bagging out the keyboard not the keyboard player�. Well news for these people � you have an extreme lack of social skills. � DON�T get shocked when people get angry at you!!

-Nick

Just a thought here, I started with Yamaha PSR3000, then Tyros2, G70, PA800, PA2xPro, S900 and now the s910.

I've finally narrowed it down to the s910, still have the Pa2xPro. Like others who have commented in past threads I'm always looking for, if there is such a thing " a perfect" arranger. I haven't found it yet......................but for my current needs the Yamaha s910 is the board that's doing the job very well. 90% of my gigs are at senior facilities and the audiences have really loved what they hear from the s910. I still enjoy the Pa2xPro, but since my audiences seem to respond better when I play the s910, that's my board of choice for gigging. That's not to say the audience didn't love the Pa2xPro ( they did). My perception of their reactions are they enjoy the s910 more.

[

[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 02-19-2010).]

Again personal Nick. I don't care if people get angry with me. Now be good and go catch a Kangaroo.

If my German, or French, or Polish was so bad I couldn't understand the nuance of what I was reading, I MIGHT try to not get hostile at the first opportunity, and I MIGHT post often about my poor language skills, in case anyone else THOUGHT I was being hostile when I wasn't trying to.

But, sadly, I have no doubt your puerile (look it up) retorts can't be excused so conveniently, Frans. How old ARE you?

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 02-19-2010).]

With all this chit chat about the actuall quallity of Yamaha sounds...

Why do i like the Soundquallity of the Motif XS so much more then T3 and S910?

Somehow Motif XS sounds much more crispier to my ears.

Thing is, Bill, so far I haven't really heard this criticism about the T3 from other sources. From what I've heard on the web, I sure haven't heard a DROP in quality between the T2 and T3. If anything, a slight increase in warmth is all I've heard. Have you really had an opportunity to A/B them through the same system at the same time, or are there web demos that you can point to where T2 is good and T3 is worse?

I've never heard a T2 in real life, however, am I right in saying that the demo that's featured on the T3 whereby it performs a straight T3 vs T2 comparison, does that represent a true to life comparison because if it is then the T3 sounds fuller and richer in sound quality.

How hypocrite some of you are. I remember some of you insulted Mystic Jammer and chase him away and now you are insulting me and accusing me of being hostile. Did't you get banned a few times from this Forum Diki? Don't we all say negatives things about diverse brands. Here is what we say in the Netherlands. "verbeter de wereld begin bij jezelf"

[This message has been edited by FransN (edited 02-19-2010).]

Finally someone with good ears

When I do make a direct comparison between boards, (I always prefer to compare with live sounds) I always make sure the sound system is the same and/or use my own headphones.
In addition I also have the T2 & T3 Demo DVDs and the difference stands out clearly. (The compressed sound does not apply to the SA2 voices, which are excellent)
If you read some of the posts of the T3 on YPKO you will also find this mentioned.

Bill

Hi Bachus,

I own a Motif XS 6 and a PSR S910 and they sit right beside eachother.

The Motif uses AWM2 sound engine and the PSR is AWM1.

the difference in sound is clear as night and day between the two boards. the Motif is definitely a superior sounding board.

although the PSR S910 still uses AWM 1 which was in al the previous Yamaha arranger boards - The PSR S910 definitely sounds crispier than the previous models inclusing the Tyros 2. its just a better sound quality and thats not becuase of eq tweaks - the sounds and drums have just been upgraded to a better standard.

To me the S910 is much more fun to play becuase of the live arranger capabilities and the SA sounds work better than the way they do on the Motif XS.

but side by side the Motif has just got "quality" and "Pro" written all over it. Not saying the PSR is cheap n nasty, but you can just see and feel the difference.

-Nick

There's a very good technical reason for all that too, but in my opinion the thread was spoiled the second guys who didn't like what they were hearing started with the personal insults.

An opinion is one thing, but a measurable fact is another.

Regardless of what personal opinions people may have about the sound quality, the fact remains that the Engine driving it has been milked to death for the last 18 years.

Yes... 18 years, I just checked.

Don't you think it's time to move on ? Even if you like the sound, don't you think Yamaha can come up with a new engine that sounds WAYYYYY better. 18 freaking years man ?

My 2 cents.

James

Thanks James. BTW the Yamaha AWM2 engine is even older see http://www.yamaha.co.jp/manual/english/chron.php In 1989 they came with the TG55 and I had one of these and this module already had the AWM2 sound engine. Something else the styles are compatible and sounding great on the PA500 Musikant.

Frans

I want you to answer one thing for me....

regardless whether an "engine" is 18 or 50 years old. if the board has a good sound then who gives a crap about what 'engine' it has?

theres obviously something being done right...

Its funny how Yamaha have an engine thats 18+ years old and still in the top teir category for arranger keyboards. Says something doesnt it?

its not marketing fluff either - its the sounding proof that me and most other arranger players on this forum would agree with.

-Nick

[This message has been edited by Nick G (edited 02-19-2010).]

Hi Nick G.

Your missing the point. Each new sound engine in a keyboard produces a very unique sound. That's why a PA2X sounds different from a Pa1X even though much of the same sample data has been included in both.

Where with a Yamaha, the engine is always the same. You just get a few new samples with each new model that is release.

It's like listening to the same radio for all your life and getting a new CD from time to time. The tune is different but the sound is the same.

Regards
James

Incorrect - firstly its just your opnion whether it sounds the same or not.

The difference in sound from a PA2x as to a PA1x whether it is a new engine or not is EXACTLY the same as comparing a Tyros 1 and a Tyros 2.

The Tyros 2 had a COMPLETELY new noticable sound palette over the Tyros 1 - it was blatantly evident to anyone who played one.

Just becuase korg called the PA2x / PA 800 RX technology it doesnt make things any different.

Ok..... I can see that you haven't got a clue as to what I'm talking about. My opinion has nothing to do with anything here. It's a measurable effect that's easily proven.

Lets resolve this with pure logic then. There are two parts to this and the first is a question, the second is an experiment.

First Part.......
Lets say I give two people the same wave file to play back in their keyboards. One owns a KORG and the other owned a Tyros 3. Which do you think will sound better if they are both using the EXACT same wave file.

A: The KORG with it's new ENGINE.
B: The YAMAHA with it's 20 year old ENGINE.
C: They will both sound the same.

Second Part.....
I'll tell you the second part based on your answer above.

Regards
James.

Your so called logic seems so simple. but in the real world you fail epically!

So are u actually going to admit that a Korg PA 800 with the RX technology (latest engine from korg) sounds better than a Yamaha Motif XS?

cos if all we are talking is 'Engines' then I can bring a synth into this disucssion for comparison.

The Motif XS uses AWM2 which apparently is 18 years + old according to your mate Frans but it doesnt actually sound 18 years old doesnt it?

what I am trying to explain to you and having extreme difficulty doing so is that whats written in black and white is never the outcome in real life.

WE are missing one part in this discussion..

Its not only the engine that has influence on the sound, its also the soundhardware, where the actuall digital sample/sounds get translated intoo analogue waves.
To my beleives this is the reason why the OASYS sounds better then an M3, it has better D/A soundconversion.

Nevertheless i agree with you that Yamaha has been lazy and uninoveative, and thats something i'd never have expected from the people that created the VL1.
But then i also don't think the current AWM engines are the same as the AWM engine from 20 years ago, I really think they have upgraded their engine over the years and ue the AWM brand name more as a marketing tool then anything else.


So the part that you are really testing with your example is the processing (engine) but also the import/translation of a sample to the native sound data format (Data Compression methods used) But also the actuall A/D sound generation.


Personally i'd guess that i will like the KORG more but that might just be my personal flavor and taste of music. But this is something i would love someone to be do, it might add some measurable facts to these discussions.

But while being very important it will not tell which of the two keyboards sounds better as there is also the ballance between the onboard sounds and the quallity of the styles thats very important.

This discussion does not make sense. A newer sound engine does not mean that the sound it produces is better than an older sound engine. Surely all that matters is whether you like the sound each product produces ? Some like thne yamaha sound, some like the Korg sound and some like the roland sound.

If it was all about the latest sound engine then wouldnt everyone flock to whoever made the latest ? Thats clearly not true if what is being argued here is correct. The motif line is one of the most successful products sold to date.

Trust your ears .....nothing else.

Hmm, this is getting a little out of my depths, however, if this is anything to go by, when I used to own a Korg I30 then upgraded to a PA80, I thought the I30 sounded better, especially the drums. Or maybe it was just me going crazy but I am sure the I30 sounded much richer and powerful than the PA80.

Danny.

only just listened to the two styles. the first one is so 'which floor sir?'

Nick G



I fail epically ?. Trying to insult me is just a measure of your intelligence not mine. You have already called me an insolent kid but yet your the one throwing around the insults and afraid to enter into a proper debate.

When you want to have a proper conversation you know where I am.

Cheers
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 02-20-2010).]

Hi Danny.

That's part of the things I wanted to talk about and how the engine does make a huge difference to the sound. You preferred the i30 AL2 engine over Hi-SYS in this case.

Your not the first one to do that either. The KORG 01W was AL2 and many people have long since missed the warmth that engine gave over the newer engines.

Talking about warmth, it's universally accepted that the Trinity was the Fattest and warmest keyboard KORG every produced. The discussion about this is still going on over at KORG Forums all these years later.

Regards
James

Hi Bachus.



Yes, that's right.

It's the overall package, the engine, the effect, the samples and the DA converters that give a keyboard it's unique sound.

How much of all that do you think Yamaha change though with each new model.



It is utterly unbelievable actually. I'm not Anti Yamaha at all. I own a 01V, a QY700, a WX-5, and my pride and joy is the almighty VL-70m which gets huge respect from everyone.

How on earth can a company who can build and invent something as revolutionary as VL Technology not come up with a new Sample Play Back engine in 20 years. Sure they have likely refined it, but maybe not even enough to warrant the label AWM 3.

Yamaha's focus with the Tyros line is exclusively limited to working with the samples and providing people with more SA type voices as that's a measurable fact they can sink their teeth into. My old keyboard has X amount of SA voices and the new one has X amount more.

This to me borders on trying to fool the people into buying a new keyboard thinking they are getting even more of this �New Technology�. When in fact all your buying is a sample library which could have been sold on a Memory sick to existing users without the need to buy a new keyboard.



I was hoping to make the point by demonstrate a few things, like how well the Tyros 3 handles stretching a sample before it breaks up and sounds nothing at all like the sound it was supposed to be reproducing. Then demonstrate the same thing on a KORG.

For example, I know for a fact that a note sampled at C2 but played back at C6 on a Tyros 3 will suffer from a very clear lost in depth, tonal quality, and worse, radio wave noises will even be introduced into the sound that will be easily heard loudly.

Where on the other hand you will get away with a LOT more on a KORG. Use an OASYS in the test and the same sample won't even suffer from any radio frequency noises at all.

People on KORG forums can even heard the difference after a sample is stretched only a few semi tones, let alone entire octaves.

It's things like this that I feel give Yamaha that plastic sound. It's the systems inability to be stretched or flexible and it's ability to sound compressed because it's always being held back by the engine.

Does Yamaha even use a Lossless compression algorithm ? I bet that's a BIG NO.

Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 02-20-2010).]

Seems an awful lot of respect is being given to the basic engine, without nearly as much consideration to the samples themselves, to how much sample compression and shortened loops they have, to the D/A converters they go through, to the OS that drives the engine and to the style programmers that utilize all of the above.

I am also a bit bemused by, on the one hand, the slavish devotion to the 'latest' engine, whilst at the same time the admittance that the engine of the Korg Trinity was by far the best one from a sound perspective. So, what is the truth..? Is the latest ALWAYS the best, or is it just the latest?

Now, I've heard the PA1 and PA2 side by side, and while it's possible to tell a SLIGHT difference between the two, their similarities are FAR greater than their differences. There's no doubt that much of the sample content is common to both, the styles are common to both, and the OS is pretty common to both (things like the paucity of fills haven't been addressed in over a decade).

I honestly hear as little increase in change between PA1 and 2 as between T2 and T3. The engine doesn't make THAT much difference, IMO. Not as much as a new set of drum samples, or guitar samples, or any of the things that are obvious to the listener.

In all fairness, it isn't in an arranger company's interest to make a next model at 180� away from the previous model. People are buying the successor to what they have BECAUSE they liked the first one so much. Not because they hated it! THOSE guys go to another manufacturer.

The difference in sound between a T3 and a MoXS is about the same between a PA2 and an M3. And it is still primarily down to the samples themselves, not really the engine, IMO...

you keep avoiding one point and hiding behind your words.

When Yamaha release a new SA1 or 2 sample. the actual sample it self is a brand new sample! its not a standard sample that has been on the board for years which they just added velocity switching to which is purely what the Korg DNC sounds were.

JUST BECAUSE THE ENGINE IS NEWER IT DOESNT MEAN THE SOUND SAMPLES ARE BETTER!! THIS IS LIKE TALKING TO A BRICK WALL!! everyone around here can understand it why cant you!?

You say you want to have a proper conversation but you keep avoiding properly answering to our posts!

-Nick


[This message has been edited by Nick G (edited 02-20-2010).]

You forgot James and some pairs of very old ears, that have perhaps sat for years next to a very noisey drummer! If anyone is judging a KB through a set of PC speaker and then coming on SZ grinding away, there's something else wrong, don't you think!

Regards

[This message has been edited by Tony Hughes (edited 02-20-2010).]