Eddie..you got it right!!!

Personally, I rather listen to a great player over a great singer...any day..

unless.....that great singer is a hot lady too...

Most of my clients, that are pros, are singers first, arranger players second.

Only a few do instrumentals exclusively.

Ian

Well, I'm sorry, Ian. My posts were not INTENDED to be disrespectful, and I'm sorry, but I feel that nothing I said wasn't extrapolated from your body of posts here over the years. In all fairness, I can't count the number of times you have taken a sideways swipe at whatever arranger others were using when what is fairly deserved criticism of Yamaha arrangers is posted. I think I can recall maybe two posts from you over the last four years or more where you have been willing to voice any criticism of Yamaha at all. I'm sorry, but in my book, and I'm pretty sure in quite a few others here (but of course, I'm just assuming, before anyone ELSE gets insulted ) that puts you pretty firmly in the fanboy category that you are willing to put on others when they disagree with YOU...

To be fair, Ian, you saw me criticize Korg for the lack of fills, and extrapolate that most of their owners wouldn't be upset if Korg added more. But you aren't leaping to THEIR defense, or criticizing me for suggesting it. Only for assumptions about YOUR needs and wants. Sauce for the goose...

I can see that several here have noted my attempt to voice these opinions in the most respectful way I can. I'm sorry that it failed to make a difference. But if a complete refusal to discuss anything that can be improved in PSR arrangers ISN'T fanboy behavior, then you have to extend that to others that display the same devotion to whatever THEY play. And I haven't seen that from you. Sauce for the goose...

But all in all, I am a bit saddened to see you basically ignore the main POINT of my post, while you concentrate on an imagined slight. To be honest, it perfectly illustrates my point. Rather than an adult discussion about the issue itself (that only frank and honest discussion of flaws and potential improvements of even our OWN arrangers is ever going to raise the level of this forum past the fanboy partisanship that spoils so much of it), you chose to ignore the point in its' entirety. I'm sorry, but if you can't come up with more than one or two posts in four YEARS where you are willing to voice any reservations about the Yamaha's (and your tendency, when the PSR's get criticized for quite obvious flaws that others don't suffer by attacking THEIR arranger) it is hard to NOT lump you in with the less critical (sounds better than fanboy, doesn't it? ) faction here.

Now, we all know you are employed to clinicize and promote Yamaha arrangers, so it isn't surprising that perhaps you aren't willing to voice your criticism, but with that in mind, it's tough to get outraged when that fact is a pretty obvious conclusion to those wondering WHY you have so little negative to say abut Yamaha arrangers, when you are all TOO willing to discuss other arrangers' flaws... (for instance, you are all TOO willing to discuss the lack of style assembly onboard the GW-8, while at the same time, completely unwilling to discuss features that take software to accomplish on the PSR that are included onboard in other arrangers).

I'm sorry if that leads us to make the conclusions that so upset you, but they aren't coming from out of thin air. Your body of posts truly suggests it. If there were even a trace of frank criticism of PSR's from you (who are in quite possibly the best position to discuss them), none of this would even be contemplated. But, just as everyone draws their conclusions about how I think from what I post here (including yourself), you can't blame others for doing the same...

Do a search for 'fanboy' and your name here at SZ, you will find examples where you used it on others (for probably the same reason). I'm sorry, but sauce for the goose...

But all in all, I am a bit saddened to see you basically ignore the main POINT of MY post, which was your insulting behaviour. To be honest, it perfectly illustrates that you'll do anything to stick handle your way out of it, or around it.

It's not working.

It's either that, or you are missing my point, or you refuse to acknowledge it.

Let me make it clear again...

When YOU assume that YOU "know" what my reactions, replies and choices would be, and then post about it on this public forum, in a disrespectful and flippant manner, I consider it insulting.

I don't need YOU to speak for me...my voice on this forum is my own, as are my opinions and choices.

I don't do this type of thing to anyone, including YOU, and therefore I don't want it done to me.

Ian

I think Ian is trying his best to gracefully bow out of this discussion and I think we should let him. Frankly, I don't think he is under any OBLIGATION to find some faults with Yamaha arrangers. I don't think that he or anyone has to post to someone else's expectations. Sometimes we can intellectualize something to the point where even early sympathizers lose interest and no longer care about the rightness or wrongness of your post. It's just before we reach that point that it's time to let it go. JMO. I love both of you guys (uh, not in the biblical sense ) and want to see both of you posting, contributing, and participating fully. Let's not say anything that would jeopardize that. Now go practice your SINGING.


chas

I'm pretty sure most of the people that you have labeled 'fanboy' don't want it done to them, either. And I'm pretty sure you don't care whether they take insult at it or not. It's YOUR opinion, you feel entitled to it, despite it being patently obvious what a slam it is...

Sauce for the goose...

To be honest, this again perfectly illustrates that you'll do anything to stick handle your way out of it, or around it.

It's still not working.

Let me make it clear again...

When YOU assume that YOU "know" what my reactions, replies and choices would be, and then post about it on this public forum, in a disrespectful and flippant manner, I consider it insulting.

I don't need YOU to speak for me...my voice on this forum is my own, as are my opinions and choices.

I don't do this type of thing to anyone, including YOU, and therefore I don't want it done to me.

As Chas pointed out, I am under no obligation to answer you, and, from my perspective, especially after being insulted.

You can't demand things from people Diki, and you can't coerce or cajole or mock people without getting the consequences, which so far are small in this case, with only having me point out your disrespectful and disgraceful behavior.

My gentle suggestion to you...quit while you're behind. I'm not upset about your insults but I am surprised a nice fellow like you has to resort to them to try and make a point.

You aren't the spokesman for the forum either, as was pointed out to you several times by Nigel and others...and now me.

Mind your manners please.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 02-20-2010).]

Having stated - or at least strongly implied - that my kb 'satisfies my needs', I feel I want to respond (although I do not THINK that trident was referring to me directly) ...
Isn't a kb the "satisfies ones own needs" what we ALL are looking for? ... Even if two people purchase the same kb, they could be doing it for different reasons - but reasons that satisfy each one's own needs ...
and as far as kb sounds go that is SUCH a subjective argument ... some kbs may have sounds that are better than others, but if the person who purchased it is satisfied, who has the right to tell them they are wrong??? ... let's face it, if a 'gigging' musician purchases a kb that sounds like crap, he is not going to be gigging for long ...
I think that there are very few times a person can be told that that they made a mistake with their choice of kb: if they purchased a kb for a certain reason and it does not have that functionality; or if they purchased a kb for a far greater price then what they should have; or some reason similar to that ...

If one is evaluating the overall sound and balance of a person's performance, then I believe performers should definitely listen to what other performers are saying ...
As far as suggestions for other subjects, such as set-up, I agree that there are a lot of experienced players here who can offer solid advice ... but again, if someone's set up works for THEM, so be it ... and if that stops the discussion with that particular person, that does not prevent the discussion from continuing - as we have seen on threads from time to time ...

Personally, I would welcome suggestions after I have posted a song ... anything that would help me 'polish up my act' is appreciated - of course other than a suggestion to quit playing music -

In a nutshell, I guess I am saying that (to paraphrase) "one person's trash, is another's rose", and while we can - and perhaps SHOULD - offer an OPINION, it should be presented and accepted as just that - another person's OPINION ...

t.

Diki,
I do see your point...BUT...darn it they have the samples already...somewhere in their company (maybe the PRO division?)

Point in example...Korg has the samples big freeking time, after all they have the OASYS M3 etc. Yamaha definetly has the samples and the programmers to do it as well.

Yes, what I want does require some programming...but...all they want to do is tweek things up a little, throw in some new things and we are supposed to buy that new model.

We need to quit buying tem until they anti-up as to what they could really offer.

I have.

Lee S.