AUDIO IS A SOUND, MIDI IS AN INSTRUCTION TO MAKE A SOUND. I guess you missed that part in your eagerness to respond (with the usual illogical BS). It's like arguing with your wife; you're never going to win because they aren't burdened with things like logic and common sense.

So tell me, Leezonedout, what exactly does 'midi' sound like. Can you give us an example that you can......HEAR. Why not try to stop being such a fanboy (especially for a product you don't even own????) and try to contribute something useful to the discussion. The old rhetoric is getting kind of uh....OLD. BTW, (as Diki often points out) it helps to actually READ a post before you respond to it.

chas

These are the posts, on another thread, that interest me...










This is where we left off...I specifically asked for the Audya's guitar tracks only....as posted, the Audya's guitar track needed the addition of the bass track to play the inversions...and yes, it is possible for a guitarist to play descending bass lines when strumming and/or picking.

Ian

Please Lord...make it stop!!!

When I was asked for the demo Ian gave me an example of a sequence; the point was to see if you could hear noticable differences between MIDI guitars and Audio Guitars mixing on the Audya when you play a complex chord sequence. As I said over and over again it, unless you play an 'impossible inversion' your not going to hear it....because the Midi guitar doesn't come in. In the real world the type of sequence I played is what your going to hear 99.9% of the time, sometimes you might sneak a funny inversion in by accident in which case the midi guitar will cut in, but its unlikely and if you do its probably in passing. I will repeat one last time: The Audya's live guitars will play everything that was possible for the guitarist to play at the time of recording.

With that in mind this is where i bow out, not just because it gets boring for most of us repeating the same thing over and over and over and but for these two reasons:

Those who can hear the difference between midi and real audio don't need convincing as the sound is evidence enough.

Those that can't hear the difference between midi and real audio might as well buy the Yamaha.

and that is my final post in this thread.

EXACTLY !!! 100% agreed,

i couldn't have said it better myself,
or maybe i could have :-)

Might as well give up, Auyda guys, they are not interested in hearing what those of us who have Audyas say. They are only interested in trying to prove "theirs is better".
Give up and enjoy your Audya.
Personally, I hope nobody else in my town gets one!
DonM

Don,

don't be selfish now...
you wanna be the only one with a nice, live, kick @ss sound don't you?

you see at LEAST I, and other AUDYA users have played on a Yamaha, and we can compare the 2 cuz we've PLAYED them both

others on the other hand, judge without ever playing it

the proof is in the pudding

oh come on guys play fair ! Why get upset ? We are just debating !

There is no point in putting up a demo so that the two types of sound generation can be compared (audio play back versus midi note generated sample play back )and then throwing up your hands and saying the difference between the sound quality is huge when according to the two demos the difference clearly isnt huge. If there was an audya near by then i would love to hear it in real life but there isnt so all i got is you friendly folk on synthzone :-).

I simply want to know the truth. Is the Audya playing chords in Tonewheeldudes demo with NO midi note substitution or not ?

Frankieve said on 22 February 2010

'So this is the way the chord with audio works

It will recognize the basic chords in audio, then to create the more advance chords it adds midi notes to complete

It sounds great, you can't tell the mix'

Tonewheeldude said on 7th April 2010 commented on the high quality of the midi guitar samples so much so that that he found it difficult to differentiate between the real audio guitars and when the midi sample driven guitars kicked in.

You cant have it both ways guys ! Either the difference between real Audio or midi driven samples is 'big' as some of you have put it or modest as i have put it . This is what Tonewheeldude said about complex chords:

'.....I am off sick and have a few minutes so I just tried the Audya I have here and played the following chord variations. I marked the ones with a * which I felt switched to midi guitars, but its pretty hard to tell on some as sometimes there are two guitars playing together and the midi guitars on the Audya are very high quality. In amongst a style the changes are not noticable particuarly as these odd chords tend to be played in passing. All the ones without the * definately played live guitars. I think I have covered about every chord variation, but if i missed any let me know.

I have a feeling if I gave this list to a guitarist he would laugh at me..but here goes:

'
Major
Minor
5
Dominant 7th
Major 7th
Minor 7th
Minor Major 7th
Sus 4 *
Sus 2
6
Minor 6
9
Minor 9
Major 9
Minor Major 9
11
Minor 11
Major 11
Minor Major 11
13
Minor 13
Major 13
Minor Major 13
add 9
Minor add9
6 add 9
minor 6 add 9
Dominant 7th add 11
Major 7th add 11
Minor 7th add 11 *
Minor Major 7th add 11
Dominant 7th add 13
Major 7th add 13
Minor 7th add 13
Minor major 7th add 13
7b5
7#5 *
7b9
7#5b9 *
m7b5 *
m7#5
m7b9
9#11
9b13
6sus4
7sus4 (* hard to tell on this)
Major 7th Sus 4 *
9sus4
Major 9 Sus4 '

My question is this :

Is Tonewheelsdudes version of the list of real audio chords correct ? if so Frankeieve was mistaken and the Audya can actually handle a lot more complex chords with real Audio than i first believed (which is good) or Tonewheeldude is incorrect and he himself could not not truly tell the difference between a midi note generated by a sample of the guitar compared to real Audio recordings of a live guitar.

You dealers cant have it both ways :-)

If Tonewheeldude himself who had an audya, live, in his home, struggled to tell the difference between real Audio sounds and Midi driven samples then i have to admire the cheek some of you have when you boast how much better the Audya sounds compared to everything else :-) .

But there is nothing wrong in loving your instrument dont get me wrong. If i paid over £5000 for my keyboard or if i were selling its at that price it had better sound outstanding too !! at least it better had in my ears :-)

(Tonewheeldude and Frankieve it was just a gentle pop at you both..dont get upset . I am just playing with you :-))

So..... Can anyone from Ketron, preferably AJ actually confirm the chords that are true Audio generated from the list Tonewheeldudes produced in his home ,live from those that had midi guitar samples in them ?

I would understand if no one responded because if Tonewheeldudes assessment was completely wrong.....it would simply prove that Midi driven samples can sound almost if not just as true as real audio and there goes the entire audya unique selling proposition.....which is where i started.

As Liontracs always says ....Enjoy whatever you play !




[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 04-22-2010).]

Well, after reading your posts over the last few months, I'm a little skeptical about what you actually do hear.

But, I do know what I hear, and that is the Audya's guitars don't play the descending bass line and on-bass chords correctly...they need the actual bass track to provide it.

It obviously doesn't make any difference to some, but at least those people who would require an arranger's guitar tracks to play bass inversions will be aware of it, and won't get any surprises when they get it home, or try it out in a store.

Ian

I can't figure out why anyone hasn't commented about the fact that the Audya's guitar chords sound disjointed. there are several times where it sounds as if, as one chord ends and the other starts, there is a tiny gap or hesitation...

Not to mention that there is no such thing as an eight string guitar (OK, maybe there is, but hardly anyone plays it!)... If you have a strumming pattern on a major chord, and add the 6 and 9 to it, it is no longer a correctly voiced 6,9 chord. It is a major chord on one guitar, with a second guitar adding the 6 & 9. For it to be a correctly voiced 6,9, two of the six notes already strummed would have to STOP. They don't...

Personally, I COULD hear tonal differences when the additional notes were being added (there's a bit of a 'hang' in the MIDI note, it doesn't phrase exactly to the audio), and the tonality of the added notes sounds like a different guitar (why they didn't make samples from the same guitar they recorded the loops on beats me... it's the obvious solution).

Now, yes, I'm being picky... and those examples sound better than the old ones from OS1 posted way back. But the issues haven't gone away, just got hidden better. But I have to say, from listening to both examples, that IMO there is NO clear winner. Both systems have their strengths and weaknesses, and anyone determined to only see one victor here is altogether TOO much partisan, and not opening their ears enough. Be critical of them both, or accept both, but there's no winner...

For me, the deciding factor doesn't come from what they actually sound like. It comes from what ELSE they can sound like. It is a piece of cake to turn the S910's guitar strums from steel to nylon, to clean Strat, to 12-string. There isn't a damn thing you can do to the Audya's loops. So you had better REALLY, really like them, because you are going to be listening to them a LONG, long time... On many, many different songs (not every style has a unique set of strums and picking patterns, so you are going to be hearing them over and over...).

As someone that only changes out his gear at maybe half or less the pace of you guys, longevity, and ease of making something easily sound different is a very high priority for me. Realism (if only a hair more of it) at the expense of the inability to change it one iota is a poor substitute, in my book...

You can ignore it all you want and substitute put-downs for facts, but any way you slice it, MIDI is a COMMUNICATIONS PROTOCOL, NOTHING MORE. Every time you use phrases like 'midi note' without elaboration, and compare it to 'live audio, it just sounds stupid. I don't have to own an Audya to know that. It's gotten to the point that if anyone asks a simple question that you two (TWD and Leezone) perceive as a knock on the Audya, you immediately launch into attack mode. TWD, although only a recent member of Synthzone, has decided that he needs to re-educate the morons here on SZ and bestow upon us (less than average players) the gifts of his vastly superior knowledge, especially as it pertains to Audyas and all things Hammond. I heard and saw some of his 'work' on YouTube; Interesting. Leezone, on the other hand, does not even own an Audya, has annoyed everyone on SZ with his incessant, unanswerable questions, and in all probability, knowing the type, will never get one. Apparently, being the center of attention is gratification enough. I think you should all go back and read carefully what has been posted here and make your own judgements.

NOW, can someone explain how 'live drums' work on the Audya and then how 'live guitar' works on the Audya. I genuinely want to know. When I play a chord on the Audya, does it analyze what I have played and chooses a pre-recorded substitute chord? Or (in style play) a suitable audio loop based on that chord. Is that loop different, depending on the style? When I cut the tempo in half, what happens with the pre-recorded drum passage? Does it time stretch? And if so, does this change the character of the drum pattern? For those that know how the Audya works, these may seem like dumb questions, but to those of us unfamiliar with the technology, they remain sources of curiosity. So instead of coming back with "if you can't hear the difference.....blah, blah", how about explaining it in a way that us mere mortals can understand.

DonM, as a longtime and respected member of this board, you know that this is not directed at you. I know that you like and are satisfied with your Audya and have never subjected us to kind of annoying fanaticism that serves no purpose other than to obscure the facts. Given it's rather substantial price, a lot of us would just like to understand the technology that justifies it. If you can shed some light on how this works, I'd appreciate it. It sounds intriguing and I'd really like to hear an objective evaluation and explanation. Thanks.

chas