Then why do Yamaha not come forward with multipads that is on par with the Audya's guitar wave loops that plays along with the styles?

Henni

that is not the question Henni. The statement was that there was a big difference between audio recordings and midi notes playing back samples like every other aranger. From the demo that both Ina an Tone wheel did there was not a big difference. Secondly from the Demo that Tonewheel did where he played complex chords where we know the Audya substitutes midi notes i could not hear the difference and i chakllenge anyone that can say clearly there was a big difference beteen the real audio and the midi substitutions in that demo. So where is the big difference ? That is in my opinion an exaggereation based upon what my ears tell me in those demos. What did your ears tell you from those demos ? Was it a big difference when you heard the Audya play complex chords and the midi notes kicked in ?

NONE of the chords I played in those MP3 files were replaced by Midi guitars. The whole point of those demos was to show that only thechords the Audya swaps out MIDI guitars for live guitars are impossible inversions (for a guitarist to play)...which are few.

Absolutely EVERYONE that has listens an Audya in real life can tell the differece between Live and Midi..listen to the cymbals and brushes in particular.

I was referring to the guitar styles of the yamaha s910/Tyros 3 vs. Audya, which was posted by Ian & TWD. Nothing to do with the live guitars than switching to midi for complex chords, I can care less. After owning a yamaha and listening to the audya, the guitars on the audya sound so much more realistic than the guitars on the yamaha. That I can hear with very well, without exaggeration.

Yes, you're partially correct...if you listen really carefully, the Audya's audio guitars played the chords alright, but they did not play the root notes (the descending bass line)..the guitars in the Yamaha played the bass line (using guitar only) properly.

In other words, when attempting to play a Cmaj7th/B, the Audya's audio guitar track was playing a Cmaj7th/C...when trying to play an Am7th/G, the Audya was actually playing a Am7th/A.

The Yamaha S910's guitar track was playing the proper root note for the chord the player played...a Cmaj7th/B came out as Cmajth/B....Am7th/G came out as Am7th/G.

I wouldn't like using the Audya's guitar tracks alone to begin a tune...you would need the bass track on, to give the descending bass line...with the Yamaha, I can do it with the guitar track alone.

A small detail? Yes. But, an important one.

Ian

Then i have misunderstood the entire point of the last 3 pages of this thread http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/021060-6.html ha ha and we are no wiser as to whetehr or not the Audya handles comples chords any better than the expales that were played about 1 year ago that sounded awful. This was what Ian and i had mentioned in passing and i thought that was the intention of the demos that Tonewheel provided.

on 2/01/2009 Mr Dave who had an Audya that had been sold to a frind of his said

"So, here's the answer:
Along with all the instruments wave data, there are recorded hundreds of guitar riffs and chords in all tonalities, but... only Maj and Min chords are present, with some exceptions.
So, for the most part of guitar loops you got only Maj and Min versions. How do they create other chords? Simply... for chords that have note added (lik 6, 7, 9...) they simply add a MIDI note in the correct position along with the chord. For example if you play a C7, you get the CMaj guitar along with a midi guitar that plays the A# note. If you play CMin7, the same... you get the Min chord + the MIDI A# note.
But for other chords that don't have additions, like C4, Cdim, CAug for example, all the loop is played by MIDI and you can clearly hear the live guitar absence in some styles where the live guitar is predominant.
as I told before, I found a few exceptions (bossa and samba riffs) where playing a 7th chord brings up a different sample instead of adding the midi note.
Other samples, notably the rock ones have only one version played regardless of Maj or Min chords."

Ian said concerning how the audy handles complex chords

"Good gracious....how many times does one have to repeat the same thing over and over before it starts to sink in? Or is it a case of selective demo playing.

My concern was how the guitars handled inversions and complex chords on their own.

That's how they were first demo'd here, and several of us were able to hear (or distinguish) the midi guitar adding the notes the audio guitar could not play.

As I said earlier, sometimes a player wants to start out a tune with just the guitar part...it's done a lot in music, especially country and pop, but pretty well all genres have tunes that begin that way.

Your demos, while showcasing the bass and drums, which are good, and obviously the instrument's best feature, and main selling point, do nothing to allow the listener to hear the guitar parts on their own...you're even playing a melody over the top.

Now, you are either missing my point entirely, either by selective reading, or perhaps, you might want to hide the guitars because of their unnatural voicing...I don't know, and , at this point, I do not care.

If I was the only one who heard the badly done guitar parts, I'd say, perhaps my hearing is shot, or selective, or whatever....but, I wasn't the only one...there were several of us.

It's highly unlikely we all have the same hearing problems.

So, it's highly likely what we heard, was exactly what was posted.

Ian "

in that same thread i said in response to the Demos that both tonewheel and Ian posted that:

" 1. The audya actually handles complex chords well and if midi tracks were being used then i could not tell when they kicked in
2. That the yamaha guitars sounded to me (and i play guitar) just as good as the Audya real guitars tracks."

Tonewheel, if you knew that no midi notes had ever been played in those demonstrations why the hell did you not correct me then .....or was it something that was just accidentally/conveniently overlooked....

So now the question still remains unanswered. Does the Audya guitars sound as awful when it plays complex chords (sufficient to trigger midi notes)as it did in the examples given a year ago and interestingly removed or does it not ? Or have Ketron managed to add additional samples into their current keyboards (that they could no have added a year ago when Mr Dave tested his ) did not exist according to Mr Dave or is midi being used in the examples that Tonewheel presented that sounded like real audio?

I apologise for any misunderstanding Henni and mc and potentially to you tonewheel but hopefully you can understand my confusion.



[This message has been edited by Spalding 4 (edited 04-22-2010).]

I always thought of 'midi' as sort of a language, a set of instructions, like "turn on this strobe light" or any other instruction you wish to convey to any electronic device that can understand and respond to the instruction. So if I send a midi message to a controller to 'turn off the light' or just flip the switch manually, will the quality of the light be different? I mean, c'mon, you guys make it sound as if midi is some kind of sound entity unto itself.

Soooooo, is an (uneditable) audio loop triggered by a midi instruction (as a midi note would be on a conventional synth) audio or midi? Just asking. And isn't the flexibility of being able to configure individual notes more desirable in an arranger setting, than being slave to a phrase that's already been played and recorded and can't be altered? I can see the advantage of the playing to a drum track that was pre-recorded for A SPECIFIC SONG, but beyond that, the compromises necessary for 'real audio' seem to outweigh the 'feel' advantage of RECORDED live drums.

This is just an opinion based on not having heard the Audya approach to drums and I could certainly be persuaded that my assumptions are in error. I've got a feeling that there are still things about this whole 'approach' that I don't know. That's nothing new .

chas

With a conventional arranger, the guitar tracks are, in a sense, audio, because the sounds being used are samples...in the case of Yamaha, mega voices are not just notes. but other additions such as fret noise, hammer-ons etc.

Since these samples are manipulated via MIDI control, the programmer has as many patterns as needed...also, some of the guitar tracks in Yamaha (and Roland, Korg) are input via MIDI guitar, so it sounds as natural as possible.

The new GTT mode on the T3/S910, goes a step further, by voicing the chords as a guitar player would.

Can the Audya's strum or finger-picking audio tracks be edited...can the notes be off-set to allow a "swing" feel...can the voicing of the chord notes be changed (without using another, different loop) by the user?

Many songs begin with guitar only, and just as often, the guitarist establishes the bass line...if the arranger's guitar tracks cannot voice, for example, a Cmajth/B as a chord with the B note in the root, it becomes a limitation...it seems, after hearing the demos posted, that the Audya cannot voice the guitar chords in that manner...it needs the bass guitar track to establish what is the root note.

The Audya would need it's audio guitar loops recorded in every inversion of each chord....does it have them?

Midi controlled guitar tracks that use sampled individual notes, as in Roland, Yamaha, Casio, Korg, do not have this issue...all inversions are available.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-22-2010).]

for Someone with a good ear

or someone who actually cares and has pride in their sound

or someone who's fortunate enough to be able to tell the difference

there is a HUGE difference

for all others,
audio and midi are exactly the same

True, and all the more reason for the potential buyer to be sure the Audya is playing chords (especially on-bass or bass inversions, or slash chords...whatever you want to call these chord types) as it should.

I'm pretty fussy about how my arranger's guitar tracks sound, which, I suppose, any player, with pride in how they sound, would be as well.

Now, Lee, if you play very simply, and never use on-bass (bass inversion, slash chords), then the Audya's handling of guitar tracks would never concern you...but, there are pros who use these chords very often, and knowing how they are managed (voiced) would be very beneficial to such players...and, it may help them decide whether having audio guitars over conventional midi controlled sampled guitar notes, is worth giving up the more precise control of the latter.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-22-2010).]