Every dumb decision, and unsuccessful product was made on the back of intensive 'market research', Ian...

The trouble is, Yamaha limit their market research to customers ALREADY playing a Yamaha. And if they don't have 76 players to start with, they are going to get a preponderance of 61 fans in the result.

And if Roland's 61's were selling, but their 76's weren't, THAT argument would not be the absurdity it is...

There's only ONE way to find out if a product will sell. That is to MAKE IT. And as little as it would cost Yamaha to simply add a 76 to an existing, successful product, what have they got to lose? They obviously didn't mind gambling on the low end 76 market. I bet it would cost Yamaha less to tool up for a 76 S910 than it did to make the almost entirely new NP-V80.

But the deeper question is, why aren't you questioning Yamaha about the obviously dumb decision to make the NP-V80? I mean, everybody KNOWS that arranger players don't need 76 notes, don't they? You've been telling it to us for years. This is like Jesus telling us it's OK to steal...

Because it is a piano based arranger...much like the DGX and CVP.

The PSR and Tyros aren't piano based, hence the five octave keyboard.

You should really be directing these questions to Yamaha's marketing division, but wait...didn't you just tell us you were talking with Steve Deming, from Yamaha, and the gist of the conversation was there was no demand for a 76-note arranger?

I realize you'd like to see Yamaha make a 76 note Tyros4, so you can finally move up from those oldie but goodie G-70's, but it doesn't appear to be in Yamaha's near future.

It's a good thing you had the foresight to get an extra G-70.

I'll be very interested to see if Korg continue with the 76-note PA "pro" series...although they basically have the market all to themselves (Audya and Mediastation aren't finished enough to be competitive), will they sell enough of these arrangers to warrant a continuation of that model?

Ian





[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 06-06-2010).]

Actually, I'd be going for a 76 S910 if there was the option.

The thing is, what on earth is the difference between these 'piano based' arrangers and normal ones..? Square keys? Because that's all there is. No other difference whatsoever... Not even weight of keys, as the NP's action is as lightweight and horrible as any synth keybed. Completely unweighted. Nothing to do with a piano at all...

You are grasping at straws to justify the unjustifiable. The NP-V80 is the arranger from Yamaha we have all been asking for. Just, unfortunately, a pathetic, crippled, basically useless version of what we have all been asking for. I would simply like to understand the logic where a BOTL product like this has NO upward path from, but a BOTL 61 arranger DOES... Does Yamaha really think that anyone that chooses a 76 BOTL arranger is NOT going to want to upgrade ever, but a BOTL 61 note arranger user IS..?

There is NOTHING 'pianistic' about the NP-V80. Every arranger out there with 76 keys has at least as good a piano sound in it, and enough keys to play it on, and having square unweighted keys doesn't magically turn it into anything different except to those looking desperately for an excuse for Yamaha having made this blunder.

Actually the difference is the piano based arrangers have more than five octaves...the one's that aren't piano based, the "normal ones", as you put it, have 61 keys.

From Yamaha's NP-V80 description...

"In both design and playability, Yamaha's piaggero embodies the almost lyrical combination of "piano" and "leggero" - Italian for "light" - that constitutes its name. NP-V80 is upper model of NP-V60.

Graded Soft Touch Keyboard just as on an actual piano with soft touch of digital keyboard."

The instrument is based on a digital piano...the NP-30. It has 76 lightweight graded keys.

No "normal" arrangers I know of have graded keys, only the piano based ones have them.

The instrument in question, the NP-V80, was designed for those wanting a lightweight digital piano with some arranger features.

Now, let's see...anyone buying a Roland arranger, cannot upgrade to 76 keys...they only have the Prelude/GW-8 arrangers.

If 76 notes were as popular in a higher end arranger as you say, why didn't Roland continue to give their customers a choice of 76 keys when upgrading?

Roland has no 76 note upgraded versions of the Prelude/GW-8 available, yet you seem to feel that Yamaha should make a 76-note PSR-S-series.

So, how come, if the market is so lucrative, neither Roland or Yamaha wants to provide an instrument to fill it?

And you thought I was grasping at straws...you've got your head in a haystack.

Ian

Seems you are incapable of simply sticking to the point, Ian. This has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Roland. Roland have ceased production on ALL arrangers except BOTL 61's. If they were still producing MOTL and TOTL 61's, you'd have a point, but sadly, you DON'T.

I've played an NP-30, Ian. That has about as pianistic a feel as an S910! In other words, none!

Every single arranger manufacturer still making MOTL and TOTL arrangers except Yamaha are making 76's. Stick to the point.

Within the Yamaha company, the piano based arrangers have more than five octaves...the ones that aren't piano based, have 61 keys.


The instrument in question, the NP-V80, is based on the NP-30. The latter, like the former, has 76 lightweight graded keys...the NP-30 is classed as, and is sold as, a "digital piano" and it is in Yamaha's catalogue under that definition.

The NP-V80, was designed for those wanting a lightweight, entry level, digital piano with some arranger features.

As far as mid range and top range arranger instruments going with 76 keys...I don't think so...as Steve Deming said, there isn't enough demand.

I think we'll know just how strong the 76-note market actually is, if/when Korg produces another PA-Pro model to succeed the PA2XPro, or, even better...if Roland makes one to replace the G-70.


BTW, Roland used to make lightweight pianos with arranger functions similar to the NP-V80 Piano several years ago in the EP-series.

Ian





[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 06-06-2010).]

Just because Yamaha's marketing guys slap the word 'piano' on it doesn't make it a piano! They don't slap that word onto 76 note WS's... and if they did, it would make them look as stupid as trying to pretend the NP-30 has anything to do with a piano action!

Sure, if you want to define a 'piano keyboard' as anything Yamaha SAYS it is, then I can quite legitimately say a tomato is a piano too! Because I just said it's so... why should FACTS get in the way?

It is absurd to posit that ALL keyboards bigger than 61 notes are 'pianos'. It is patently obvious they are NOT.

The NP-V80 is a 76 note, light weight keyboard arranger. Calling it a 'piano' no more turns it into one that calling it a 'home organ', even though it has organ sounds in it. You have to give the Company Line a rest from time to time, Ian, and join the real world...

If you look for the NP-V80 in the "home arranger" section of the store, you won't find it...that's where they keep the G-70's.

The NP-V80's will be in with the digital pianos.


Ian

Wow! I have to agree with Diki on this one.

So I take it you would agree with Roland that the GW8 is a workstation and not an arranger?