Let's put it this way ....
for me personally, they haven't come near to making Arranger KB's & Speaker gear smaller and lighter keeping great sound all around for my liking as of yet to gig with.
Maybe in years to come technology will be better in this regard. What about you?

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 06-01-2010).]

Donny,

The older I get the MORE it seems to matter. I just dread moving my G70 around. It is such a beast. I'm thinking of dumping the G70 and my Sd-1 for a Yamaha 910. I can live with the Yamaha drums but will probably get a harmony M to use instead of the Yamaha harmonizer. I'm so spoiled by the vocal processing of the G70.

Peavey makes the PR line of speakers and they are very light compared to some of the others and they sound good. I have the PR15s and like them a lot. For the NH gigs I use the Logitech 2100 that I carry in a large duffle bag. Yamaha also makes some very light powered mixers. I believe these are in the 7 to 10 pound range.

Tom

[This message has been edited by Tom Cavanaugh (edited 06-01-2010).]

Hi Tom...
Yes I agree although both are very good sounding arrangers of which I have gigged with both, but IMO better for home use at that weight. ......they are just too big, heavy and bulky for daily In & Out GIG duty.....I use the S910 now and couldn't be happier, but I still want lighter & smaller. Harmony M is also a good little unit. Good luck

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 06-01-2010).]

Weight is a one of the biggest factors when you are getting older, I am sick of lugging around heavy keyboards but as far as now I cannot cut it with a S910 and my PA800 is busting my nuts, maybe a ketron Audya 4 with a small keyboard? but we are talking mucho bucks!

i'm thinking AUDYA4,
with Korg XD5 (light as a feather)

i now use Ketron XD3 with XD5

Weight is always a factor, but unfortunately (at least for me!) it is trumped by SOUND.

My audience do not care one jot what my keyboard weighs. They care what it sounds like. If I choose a lighter keyboard, I am cheating them if it doesn't sound as good. Trust me, guys, I would LOVE a lighter arranger, but until someone makes one significantly lighter (I'm not going to trade around to save a measly five to ten pounds) that makes absolutely NO compromise in the sound or the action, I am unwilling to make the change...

Most of us use speakers that each weigh up to twice what our arrangers do. If we are willing to lug THOSE around, why not the one thing that makes the MOST impact on our live sound (the arranger itself)..?

All things being equal, of COURSE the lighter gear is the better gear. But things are never equal, are they?

Great sound means a lot to me, and having the right sounds for my type of gig, which is restaurant work, is essential.

I've been fortunate, since the days of the PSR-2000, to be able to use a MOTL arranger, without compromising the quality of sound.

It weighed only 23 lbs.

Since then, I've used PSR-3000, PSR-S900, and nowadays a PSR-S910...all weighing in about the 23-25 lb range.

I use a pair of Yamaha MS-60S powered monitors, that weigh less than 25 lbs each, and they have been perfect for my restaurant work, as well as being totally reliable...they are nearly 20 years old now.

I'm quite content with my gear, and pleased it is very light, and easy to transport and set up, again, with no compromise as to sound quality and dependability.

For me, the days of needing to haul heavy amps/speakers, and keyboards are in the past, and I certainly don't miss them.

Ian

To me weight matters, I am lucky that to my taste and needs as a player, the 2 arrangers I use are IT.
In the amplification I found the perfect match again, to suit MY needs, the Yamaha EMX 312S and I have 2 Pairs of EV ZX90s, for small to medium audiences I use ONE pair, for the largers, I use the 2 pairs, it works great for me, my competitors have copy my gear since they see how light weight the speakers are and the performance they render, 18Lbs each.
Not long ago, my friend Michael Carollo that is 9 years younger than me, had double hernia surgery, and I know the vehicle type you drive has a lot to do, he has a 4 wheel drive Toyota truck that is kind of high to lift the stuff, I drive a Honda Element that is nice and Low to lift to put my stuff in.
Something to consider too, not just the gear. After all, the "real" physical job is loading, unloading, setting up and undoing it.

------------------
mdorantes

I can see this thread heading south, as was probably Donny's perhaps unconscious intention (when has this issue EVER stayed polite? - it's been hashed out enough times!), but I guess the deeper issue is, what SOUND are you willing to put up with?

There are those that are happy enough with MOTL arrangers, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it's undeniable that TOTL arrangers sound better (or they wouldn't sell any at all!) and tend to weigh more. Plus, there are those that playing FULL (or close to it) piano parts are part of their 'style', and an arranger with a 76 is part of what is needed, and once again, that adds weight.

Life is full of compromises, and sadly, keeping your gear light involves making them... Some of us are willing to do that, some of us aren't.

Mind you, is there a thing as 'TOO light'? Personally, I've played some of the VERY lightweight keyboards, and a major problem is keeping them in one place while you play! Put them on an X-stand, play heavily at the top end, and they go flying off the stand (or at least bouncing around like a gymnast!). You can't play well under those circumstances... A keyboard MUST remain static while you play... you get an ultra lightweight keyboard, you end up negating the weight loss by having to haul a heavy table around to give it some stability.

Bottom line is, I look back to the days when I hauled around a B3, Rhodes Suitcase, CP70 and a big Leslie (amongst other things), and all of a sudden, 45lbs. total doesn't seem like such a problem! Especially when that 45 lbs. gives me a sound close to indistinguishable from the old heavy gear! Until they bring out a lightweight arranger that doesn't have a lightweight (comparatively) sound, I'm going to stick to what sounds best... And thank my lucky stars the B3 stays in the studio, now!

Weight means a lot to me...all my better gear weighs the most..and if I don't want to compromise..I take the heavy stuff..

G70..46 pounds

MediaStation...50 plus pounds

Roland Cube amps (2) ...70 pounds each

I think weight and size together are important. I can lug a 50 lb amp if it's fairly square and well-balanced, but a 60 lb G-70 in a case was another story for me. It was bulky and awkward and added time and discomfort to my setup. I still miss the G-70, I've bought and sold two and could probably be talked into a third for warm weather, but overall the bulky weight was more than I wanted to handle. With my heart condition and all the meds I take, my strength and stamina aren't what they used to be. So today, if i can find something smaller and lighter that will do the same job as something bigger and heavier, I'm going with the lighter stuff.

Cassp, I definitely sympathize... when health conditions preclude the use of more weighty gear, of course you have to compromise. No doubt, some day in the future, I will get to a point where I can't lug the G70 and its' case around either. But at least when that happens, I HOPE I won't deny that I AM making a compromise...

Strangely, though, for me, lugging a small heavy amp around is MUCH harder on my back than the G70 in its' case. I dolly the G70 vertically, and getting it into any vehicle is simply a matter of standing it vertically next to the tailgate, leaning the case so that it rests on the bed, and tilting the bottom end up and sliding it in. At no point am I ever lifting the entire weight. But a combo amp, unless you have a ramp, at some point you are going to have to lift the thing in... all 60 lbs. of it

I also make a point of resting my G70's case on a couple of chairs (or anything else around that is convenient) to lift it out or put it back in. That way, I'm not bending down too far... A combination of leverage and being smart has meant I rarely ever exert myself moving the beast! Anyway, preferring to play at least with ONE other person has always meant that the load is shared! Just one more plus to musical collaboration!

Sorry about your health issues, but watch yourself with those amps! You might be lifting more than the old G70 was, if you are not careful...

The more compact, and lighter, gear also means being able to use a smaller, and more economical vehicle to carry it.

At one time, I needed a van, or a fairly big station wagon.

Now, my PSR-S910, my two powered speakers, my stand and bench, plus all the accessories, fit in my Honda Accord 4-door sedan...with room to spare, and no detrimental effect on the handling or performance whatsoever.

And, I have much better sound quality than the much heavier gear, of only a few years ago.

Ya gotta love the incredible advances in keyboard and speaker/amplifier technology.

I'd rather have compromised vehicle handling than compromised keyboard handling!

And I don't want to sound a bit better than a heavier keyboard from a few years ago. I want to sound as good as I can NOW... There's no way a contemporary MOTL arranger can make that claim. They are always trumped by the heavier TOTL ones.

Are they 'good enough'? Depends if 'good enough' doesn't have to be 'the best'. Lord knows, there's enough great players laying ten, fifteen, twenty year old gear, and sounding great. But most of them would sound better on the TOTL.

You've got great chops and taste on the MOTL, Ian. Love your demos. I just wish you would post some T3 stuff from time to time. Be great to hear what could be done if you weren't limited by the gear...

Hardly...my S910 has far better sounds than your older technology G-70...and much better styles as well.

All the G-70 has is a decent piano...the rest of the sounds are tired and old.

You can justify using old heavy gear if you try hard enough, but, I'm afraid it doesn't impress me one iota.

You are defending patent absurdity, Diki.

Quit while you're behind.

Ian

I could say the very same to you Diki...that G-70 sounds pretty tired compared to today's modern arrangers like the Tyros3 or an S910...and, if you really need 76 keys, there's always the Korg PA2XPro with those fresh and fancy DNC sounds.

If I felt I was limited by my S910, I'd be using something else...but, it does the job admirably for me, so it stays in my kit.

Ian

Thanks Ian for those last words. Diki, you shouldn't misunderstand my words to mean I am settling for something inferior to the G--70. I feel the S910 is equally as powerful, just from a different manufacturer.

Yeah!!!! Let me hear that "Scat" sound...

Seriously Ian..you so far from being correct..

Of course there are a few stellar sounds on the Yamaha...but across the board...The ancient G70...out performs and out-sounds it too....The XG bank of sounds still makes me want to throw up.. and I am not alone...more than one Yamaha owner has voiced discontent with the XG stuff..

Outdated sounds....is just nonsense... a piano sounds like in did a decade ago...so does a choir, guitars, Rhodes, and every other sound....If Roland started off with quality, full body samples ..there is no need to re do the sound banks....Now if you (Yamaha) sampled with the thin sample process they use....even the top models sound "dead".....There is a reason some boards sound LIVE and others uh CD like..

Don't trash my heavyweight champion...

I'm not going to argue with you Fran, as I know you love the G-70, and you think it's the best.

That's wonderful, but, I feel the S910 and of course, the incredible Tyros3, have the edge.

That's why I play these instruments...otherwise, I'd be forced to lug around a G-70, and thankfully, I don't have to.

Like you, I feel I have the best sounding arranger, and you won't convince me otherwise.

Ian

Diki, you've no doubt heard the expression "straw that broke the camel's back?" A measly 5 or 10 lbs? That ain't measly, Diki. Have you ever done progressive weight training? If so, you know that 2 lbs can make a big difference. At some point adding only one lb. will make a lift impossible.

The difference between your G70 and my E60 is 18 lbs. That's huge. (And I wish the E60 were lighter, it kicks my ass at age 71 even without using a case and using the vertical method you describe)

As far as I have heard, there's little difference in the sound quality of the two, so that's no argument. and the E60 is far from unstable on the stand. it does lack the "extras" like mic input, harmonizer, multipedal controller capability, drawbars..
but none of those are essentials to me. I'd like to have them, but not for 18 lbs more.

I'm selling some of my vintage saxes (one went today)that i no longer play. I think I'll take a flyer on the M50, I'm sure the piano sound will be inferior to the E60 but
that's not so critical if gives me other advantages, plus it's about 8-9 lbs lighter.
I can afford to splurge on the higher-end M3 when i sell another horn, but at 36 lbs, no thanks. The m50 will do just fine.

I use Ev sx-100 spkr(s) and a 20-lb Behringer
5-ch powered mixer. They sound great and they are lightweight. For small rooms I use
one little 12-lb Roland cube monitor, and leave the Ev/mixer home. sounds good enough,
would sound fuller on my big rig..but I don't care, It sounds good enough, it's my'
performance that's more important than my rig. You of all people know this, to hear
you talk like a rig-fetishist is crazy.

But i have no objection to you carrying heavier loads if you feel what the heavier equipment offers is well worth the trade-off..just please stop objecting to others making the weight trade-off on the opposite side to your choice, especially when they don't think they are really trading off a lot of quality to gain lighter weight. There is room for both opinions, and both are valid, so please stop giving "permission" to those who are actually feeble but at the same time implying they will sound like crap compared to your rig. And please stop the "in your face" arguments re weight with
those of us who are not feeble, but find the
weight an important consideration, and nothing "measly" about it, and are not willing to concede that if they went heavier, it would make all that difference in the quality of what they present.
Most importantly, as you have agreed with me in the past, great players sound great on any equipment, and lousy players sound lousy.
That's not to say everyone shouldn't have the best equipment possible, just that if it's going to stress them out re the weight, it's not that big a deal. The fact you can handle it well means you are in great shape
(plus very attached to your G70 for good reasons) but you are not everyone else, and
can't always sit in judgment of others..no matter how right you think you are.


------------------
Miami Mo

Weight was never an issue with my Pa2xpro, I found it totally manageable. My old G70 in the Gator case was like wrestling with a bear. But when I switched to the s910 I was surprised how much easier it is move it and fit either in my small SUV or even in my Hyundai Sonata.

I do my share of manual labor around my home and have no trouble hoisting an old wood ladder and climbing 30 feet to the roof for minor repairs or for the annual cleaning leaves out of the gutters. But when i work a gig I don't want to work that hard transporting equipment.



[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 06-01-2010).]

Ian, I know that......Just look at me as the G70's corner man in a boxing bout..

I can't think of a "bad" arranger in today's market...some just fit better for different folks...


Miami Mo....I really don't have a problem carrying heavier gear...I guess I am use to physical chores..

There is one observation...I notice that I will use a Rock N Roller to haul my G70 and Cube amps.....a pretty easy adventure..

but, when I use say my Prelude (under 20 pounds , but with the case(bag) and the laptop and mixer, etc...it weighs more like 40 pounds..and also the 29 pound BA330...guess what? I find myself carrying the equipment by hand (since they are so much lighter)... ....and I am using more energy hauling my "light" set up....

So really it isn't the equipment weight at all....it is how smart we haul the gear..

Mo, believe me there is a big difference in the sounds between many of the G70/E60 boards...I was fortunate to own both at the same time and A/B'd them extensively...As much as I loved the E60 as an alternative..yet compatible with the G70...Picking the G70 over the E60 is a no brain-er...for me..

BTW: I have a weekend gig coming up..I need to haul my gear up 2 flights of steel steps...2 of the last 3 years, I have used my G70 and Cube amps..there was no "SMART" way to haul up them steps..

That's right...I am carrying by hand my Prelude and BA330...up those steps this year...

I am working on a way to get up those steps..

I just hope you'll be able to get back down those steps...

Fran,
i can't imagine that the E60 sounds I use: ep, bass, piano, jazz organ, vibes, jazz gtr, scat vocals, spanish gtr, and which sound really excellent, will sound so much better on a G70 as to make me play better music or reach my audience any better. not 18 pounds better. maybe you use a ton more sounds and styles(i have very limited need of styles, i only use bass/drum or just bass or just drum) and therefore you find some significant differences. and i don't lift, i use cart for spkrs/head and folding hand truck for kbd, so it's not about smart moving technique. i can't deal with 46 lbs in even a very limited way. call me a wimp, an old fart or whatever--and except for you and Diki, there are few here that opt for more weight just because they might like a certain rig. they opt for less weight and getting as close as possible on the sound etc..because nothing is giving BAD sound today, and it's not the sound quality of the rig that makes the music, so OPTIMUM
sound is cool, but it's a marginal utility as they say in economics. You just don't need it to sound good. One iota of playing better is worth 10 iotas of improved rig.

------------------
Miami Mo

[This message has been edited by keysvocalssax (edited 06-01-2010).]

[This message has been edited by keysvocalssax (edited 06-01-2010).]

I have Tyros 1 which I keep as a backup, I use the G70 for all my gigs both live with manual bass and as an arranger.
I feel overall it is a professional looking and sounding arranger. It does not have all the styles I would like and I'm gradually building up a stock of my type of styles. I did not feel good about taking the Tyros out to a gig as I feel it is basically a home keyboard and does not look professional for a paying job..
I think from day one we are all hungry for more/better sounds but realistically we never had so much sounds in our lives. Anyway we usually end up playing the same 7 or 8 sounds we like regardless.
The G70 is heavy yes but to me it is a good sounding professional keyboard and the weight issue would be the last issue that would come to my mind.

Frank

Then why aren't you toting around a Hammond B3 and a Rhodes?

Wow nice subject, sound verse weight. Being older then most I would like to take a different view of this subject. If I were not carry the equipment
I would want the best of the best sound I could get. I carried a Fender twin guitar amp with special speakers well over 50 lbs. and a PA system with tall columns and helped with a large Leslie speaker. But ---- there is always a price!

We are not all built the same, for those who are well built with a strong body, great, but for those who struggle with the weight there will be a price to pay. Here in Florida there are many older musicians who will testify to that. When asked if they would do it the same way almost all say no.

I feel the question of weight verses sound should include all factors health or future health should be considered.

IMHO, John C.

it's analogous to sex:
every guy would like to have a bigger unit,
but only if you have a very small unit (analagous to a bad-sounding rig) does it make a big difference to the woman (audience)

all sizes up to "scary" will do,(rigs that sound decent) and all the other stuff (technique, personality, feeling,etc) is of much more consequence. any woman will tell you that(any audience will tell you that)

And some are so great at sex, even a tiny unit, while it has drawbacks, goes a long way
(Enrico Caruso, Louis Armstrong on primitive recording equipment)

We're like the guys who are "pumping up" to get it bigger. (It gives us more confidence to have a bigger better rig) It is an advantage to have a bigger one-up to "scary"-
but the advantage is way overblown (pun unintended)..it's not worth all the time we spend at it..our time would be better served at improving our music.

now having said that, i think i'll go on ebay and see what's out there....(I'm a guy and just can't help it!) they should have a tune like My Fair Lady's "Why Can't a Woman be more Like a Man" in reverse...we need to think more like gals in regard to our rigs..




------------------
Miami Mo

My old MS-60's have internal stereo speakers and amplifiers, which adds a lot of weight. So does the SD-5. When I bought the MS-60's, there was a non amplified option (MS-50, I think), which would have worked fine for me and been a lot lighter.

The SD-5 does not have the non speaker option. That would probably cut 15-20 pounds off the weight, which would be nice. Most of my jobs are set by my crew, so it really isn't a big deal for me.


R.


Russ

If I had a crew, you BET I'd still be using a B3, Rhodes, real piano etc.!

But what we are talking about is the difference in weight between arrangers, no more than twenty pounds TOPS. S910 about 27 lbs., G70 45 lbs.. Unless infirmity is the reason, we are talking about decisions that have fairly big consequences (S910 is a great arranger, but the T3 sounds considerably better) for the saving of a mere 20 lbs...

It's obvious that that decision is a lot more practical when you are comparing a 28 lbs. arranger with over a thousand pounds of vintage gear but most of us COULD lug around a few more pounds of weight if we considered that the improvement was worth it. What surprises me is the admission that the improvement ISN'T worth it for some of us, to be honest!

Venues play a BIG part in the weight gear factor for players....

Setting Up & Breaking Down 2 or 3 times a day for some can become cumbersome with big heavy gear & tight time
restraints...hundreds of 4 hour gigs a year also not so much....house jobs no problems when you can leave whatever at the gig..... weight and size does matter.

now it's a "mere" 20 lbs? I thought it was bad enough when your "mere"was even less! Diki,
you have a severe blind spot on this subject,
and you stubbornly hold to it. good for you, but the rest of us find lugging a lot of weight a very big factor,, especially when we are not talking HUGE differences in how our performances will come across with lighte equip

Well, the truth is, no matter what YOU think is 'acceptable' in arranger sound, it is also true that you COULD gig with something cheaper, lighter and poorer sounding and get away with it...

But you have made your decision as to WHERE that cost/weight/sound balancing act is optimal. And are quite likely to feel defensive against someone with a cheaper/lighter arranger telling YOU that you don't NEED that heavy arranger (heavy by HIS standards, anyway!). You would be able to gig just as well without it!

You see, it's all a matter of DEGREE...

When is TOO light, too light, when is too heavy, too heavy? For me, it is strictly about the sound, and the size of the keybed. Could I go lighter and still gig? Sure I could.

But so could YOU...!

Haven't we all?

I feel very fortunate to have a keyboard that weighs less than 25 lbs, but sounds as good or better than arrangers weighing over twice as much.

So, I'm not giving up anything, except the inconvenience of using a large, awkward, and heavy instrument.

I think I can make that sacrifice.


Ian

Mo, I am not trying to convince anyone to use the top heavy gear, but to show a perspective that maybe we aren't looking at....

As a comparison I will use the two boards that I owned at the same time period...The E-60 and the G70..

The difference in weight is just under 18 pounds....not a big difference...and when you compare what you (I) gave up....it turns out to be a No Brain er...

Not only is the G70 a better sound bank of sounds (maybe a lot is due to better converters), but the samples are superior..
If you owned just the E-60..you would not notice or be aware how much better the G70 does sound..

Secondly, the E-60 has a nice key bed, but not the great key bed the G70 does...and it has after touch..

3rd....the extra 2 real time parts the G70 gives over the E-60.

4th...A vocal harmonizer that many agree is the best on any keyboard..

5th...the EQ and balance of mic and instruments with in the G70..can eliminate a mixer..

The separate outs and other routing's available on the G70...


These are just quick comparisons of two keyboards that I like..and 18 pounds difference doesn't come into play for me..with all the options I would not have...just to save 18 pounds...

Now what if you grab an out board , Harmonizer, and a mixer, etc..there is the added weight that brings it to the same....and you still are playing the inferior unit..

Imagine if I made these comparisons to boards I dislike..

At least the E-60 plays better than the PSR and non Pro PA series key beds...(the key beds that I totally do not want to play...bad enough with the Prelude.. )..

why can't everyone make their own decision on "weight" without the "arranger police" telling them they are making a huge sacrifice for a "mere" 18-20 lbs. That's a lotta weight to me, nothing mere about it. I have enough to handle with the 28-lb E60 and I don't even use a case..if i did i wouldn't be able to deal with it. I'm 6'4" and 216 lbs and in decent shape for someone 71..2 years ago i had a Genesys w/case, took it to one gig and hurt my back putting it on/off the stand and in/out of suv..and don't you dare try to tell me i need to use a better technique..that's not the problem..it's the weight. All those extra features on the G70 would be nice, but they are not essential to me. It sounds better and has a better keybed? how much better? My e60 sounds pretty good. If I play great, it absolutely does not matter if the sound is "better".
I have talked about this until i'm blue in the face and you guys still want to strut around lording your "better" sound because you play g70's. It's a marginal utility. After a certain point, better sound does not do a lot for you over good sound. We're not talking lousy v. great. Why do you think after all your yammering and hammering, we still want lighter keyboards? Because we're deluded? and your arguments will win the day if you keep insisting on them?. i think your saying that 18-20 lbs means little is the delusion, not vice-versa.

------------------
Miami Mo

Nowadays we're talking great vs a tad greater...today's MOTL arranger keyboards are terrific sounding instruments.

It's not just the 20 lb difference...when the instrument is also big and bulky, it can feel like a lot more.

I could probably use a Tyros3 in a soft case, which would weigh about 35 lbs max, if I want something even better than my S910, but the latter is such a great sounding instrument on it's own merits, and works so well for my type of gigs, I really don't need to use the former.

Plus, when I get home after a gig, I just whip it on the stand, plug in the extra adaptor and pedal, and I'm good to go, because it has great sounding on-board speakers.

I'm certainly not going to try and convince the die-hard G-70 users, or anyone else that plays a heavy keyboard, to go with something lighter...I'd be wasting my time, just as much as they'd be wasting theirs trying to convince me to use something big and heavy that I'd find a nuisance to gig with...and that would sound and perform no better, in my opinion, than my S910.

Ian

"Mo, I am not trying to convince anyone to use the top heavy gear, but to show a perspective that maybe we aren't looking at...."


As I said above... ..I understand...heck even a padded bag for your E-60 adds too much weight..

I guess for some of us that haven't arrived to the same degree of physical elements (but getting closer)...weight becomes an issue......maybe Russ will hire out his crew..

Mo , you mentioned technique...and I thought about this the other day...

While I play the Crab Trap (a small stage), and a big crowd to work your way to the stage....I use the Prelude and a BA330 (Roland stuff)...because they are light and a small footprint..

What I noticed....I use more effort (because of the size/weight)...carrying in the gear by hand from the van to the stage....In other venues where I use the G70 and Roland Cubes...I use the "smart" way...the Rock N Roller....So maybe technique does matter...

There's no 'arranger police' here, Mo. But on a thread entitled 'How Much Does Gear WEIGHT Matter?', you are going to get people of all opinions here. And, just as some of them see little point in carrying extra weight for what little perceived improvement in sound (nice to see a Yamaha demonstrator basically say there's no POINT to owning a T3!), there are others that that improvement in sound, as little as YOU think it makes a difference, is their most important consideration.

But, thing is, most players that eschew the heavier arrangers also lug speakers around that weigh a lot MORE. Seems, when it comes down to it, those 45 lbs.+ weights somehow ARE liftable...

Seems like they are willing to tweak their backs for a speaker, but not for a better arranger... Strange choice, IMO

But if you are willing to make it, fine by me!

Diki and Fran:
your condescension is becoming unbearable.
outtahere. no more weight discussions for me.

------------------
Miami Mo

This happens far too often, Mo.

The desperate need to be right brings out the worst in these two.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 06-07-2010).]

Well obviously there are no mirrors up in Cape Breton .

The thing is, if someone posts an opinion that doesn't jibe with yours, you can always choose not to board that southbound bus. After all, their opinion is as valid for them as yours is for you. It's only when they (or you) try to imply that the other person must be some kind of idiot if they don't or won't subscribe to your point of view, that the thread starts going downhill.

So yes, Ian, you're right. There is a strong need among some members to always be right. A sense that they are just a little bit brighter; that they somehow have a clearer picture of the world. Well, in some cases they are/do, but any intellectual advantage they may have is offset by not knowing when to 'reign it in' a bit. This can be very off-putting to some members, who will either 1. react (over-react, maybe?) or 2. quit posting altogether. I suspect that this is the reason that many long-time members have either stopped posting altogether or their posts have become more and more infrequent.

I think it's okay to 'make your case'. I think it's NOT okay to insist that everyone acknowledge that your 'truth' is the only truth. JMO.

chas

PS: Don't respond unless the shoe fits .

Yes, Chas...I can be rather aggressive at times, but usually it's a response to someone who has been downright flippant and disrespectful...and, if they/we/I continue with the behavior, you have the recipe for...

1. People no longer posting

2. People being banned.

3. Threads needing to be edited or blocked.

Of course, there can't be a mirror or two where you are ...and, I know you were only being naughty when you sometimes worded a post or two rather provocatively...but it was all in fun wasn't it?

The thing is, there are one or two here, whose idea of fun is to deliberately try and make other people look like they are blithering idiots if they don't play a particular style of music, or they use a certain kind of arranger...or even because they play an arranger in the first place.

We all have our particular posting style, and some admire the way some people express themselves (usually those who wish they could post that way)...and, a little clique, so to speak, develops, and then the one who is admired, decides to show off a bit, figuring they always have their fans to back them up, even sucking up to them to be sure they are still with them...sometimes this is pathetically obvious, especially to those of us who have been here for some time.

Then there is the blatant misquoting, and also the refusal to acknowledge the other person has a view...or even a brain, for that matter.

I can understand Mo's chagrin, and I just wanted him to know, that he's not the only one who feels that way, and that he isn't being overly sensitive...sometimes people really are rude and aggressive.

Ian

Of course not, and even if there were, I'm not going to look in them .

Here's the problem, Ian. Plain and simple.
WE'RE OLD. OLD, DAMMIT, OLD.
Do you know what that means?
It means that our brains are slowly turning to mush; it means that every joint in our body is stiff......except the one that counts ; it means that our opinions, views, philosophies, ideologies, etc., are set in stone, and no amount of logic or common sense is going to change ANYTHING (married men will be able to relate to that). Our skills diminish and so we need to play something that's easier. We find it impossible to appreciate, let alone play, the 'new music' (Diki's lament) and the old stuff just sounds better and better. Gary (Travln' easy) often says 'gettin' old ain't for wimps' and he's right. It also takes it's toll on civility and open-mindedness, as well. One old guy, when asked the secret of his long marriage, responded, "I don't talk, and I don't listen". Looks like most of us have mastered the second part pretty well, now it's time to start working on the first part.

chas

Sorry, but you guys just read too much into post.....

Every post of mine in this thread, has been my experience or endeavor...I even stated, several times, I was/am not trying to persuade anyone into my line of thoughts or to agree with my experiences...

I have, mentioned some things in comical ways, and have kept my comments "light hearted".....yet I thought I made mention, some very good points...

In the end..just do what you or I want.....If I want to haul a heavier keyboard in a heavier case (on a R and R)...and someone else wants to carry an unprotected 28 pound keyboard on it's end (via hand truck).......so what...maybe I like to maintain my gear (and have a better resale value)..

Mo, yes I think you over react on other views , when stated..and many times misunderstand the purpose of a post...

Be happy and play (carry) what ever you want...

Well said Chas...and in spite of my tenency sometimes, to see my way as the only way, you make good points.

Speaking of looking in the mirror, it reminds me of this poem someone read at one of my first AA meetings...I have it here on my desk...I thought I'd share it, in case someone hasn't read it.

It goes...

The Man In The Glass ~ Anonymous

When you get what you want in your struggle for self
And the world makes you king for a day,
Just go to the mirror and look at yourself
And see what that man has to say.

For it isn�t your father or mother or wife
Whose judgment upon you must pass.
The fellow whose verdict counts most in you life
Is the one staring back from the glass.

You may be like Jack Horner and chisel a plum
And think you�re a wonderful guy.
But the man in the glass says you�re only a bum
If you can�t look him straight in the eye.

He�s the fellow to please-never mind all the rest,
For he�s with you clear to the end.
And you�ve passed your most dangerous, difficult test
If the man in the glass is your friend.

You may fool the whole world down the pathway of years
And get pats on the back as you pass.
But your final reward will be heartache and tears
If you�ve cheated the man in the glass.

I really can't see why someone would get upset talking about weight, number of keys, brand, model, etc. Anyone is free to bash my Yamaha, Korg, Ketron, Roland, MS, Hammond, Orla... it would mean nothing to me. On the contrary, I might burst out laughing for I think it's tremendously funny when a keyboard (or any other lifeless product) -it's a "thing" for crying out loud- has the power to cause someone to lose his/her temper. Want something light, buy something light. If weight doesn't bother you, buy a tank.

This really isn't about certain individuals messing up a thread. On the contrary, it's about more than two individuals making a mountain out of a molehill.

And you think women talk about silly issues. HA! No wonder there aren't that many here.

Chas hating broccoli bothers me, though.

------------------
Bo pen nyang.

Broccoli isn't bad; it's the wives and mothers that make you eat it ('cause it's good for you) that are bad. Here's a clue. FATHERS never insist that you eat your broccoli .

chas

Yes Taike, neither can I, but it happens. I know from personal experience.

It's good that it doesn't upset you, but, it does manage to upset others...we all have different temperaments, values and tolerance.

What would make me laugh out loud, might be the very thing that would get you very upset and angry.

The very thing that keeps this forum so interesting, that being the varied personalities and cultural backgrounds, can also be a source of conflict.

I remember you being involved in some heated discussions that you took very seriously, while others here thought it was hardly anything to get wound up about at all.

Some people know the exact buttons to push that upsets certain other individuals...who is wrong when that happens...the one who gets upset, or the one who deliberately and knowingly baits them?

And who is wrong when these individuals know exactly what will happen through previous experience, and yet they still continue to push the buttons?

Ian

True, Ian. But that's usually because of someone acting like the forum police. I prefer to let Nigel decide.

On the other hand, I wouldn't lose sleep over someone belittling a product, no matter how much I like it.

Taike

------------------
Bo pen nyang.

The thing that often gets my goat is the unwillingness to admit that any compromise is made for one reason or another...

I'll be the first to admit that there are several very useful things I have to do without to be able to use my G70. I also don't deny that the weight is no factor at all. I do what I can to mitigate it, but yes, it could be better. But, for what it does for me, there is no adequate substitute made at this point. But I'm not going to go around and claim it is perfect...

I simply wish that we could talk about our instruments as ADULTS, and not let ego into it. And part of being adult is an ability to recognize that all things have flaws. Lighter keyboards are undeniably compromised compared to their heavier brethren. Especially from the same manufacturer. No-one can seriously claim that the minor weight difference between an S910 and a T3 makes the S910 the better arranger... or CAN they?

Look at what 8 lbs. gets you...

Everybody makes compromises. Only some are willing to admit it, though.

Yes, that's true...it would be nice that we could talk about these things as adults...unfortunately,. as musicians we really haven't grown up all that much.

I hardly think of using an S910 as being "compromised"...there is nothing on the Tyros3 that isn't on the S910 that would make my playing experience that much better.

They are both 61 note, they both have great piano sounds, both 128 note poly, as well as SA/mega voices...the Tyros3 only has a few SA2 voices, and they aren't sounds that I'd use.

They both have audio to USB which is handy for making my CDs...the difference may be substantial for some users, but not for me.

I honestly can't think of any real flaws in the S910, although I suppose when it's successor arrives, I will have it on my sample account, and, hopefully they will not take anything off, but rather, add something else, although, I really can't imagine what else I'd need.

When I had the 3k I wanted audio to USB and SA voices...the S900 had them...the S910 added some great tone-wheel organ voices, and an improved screen...nice additions, but I could have stayed with the S900 if I had to.

I'll be genuinely surprised at what they add to the next S-series...most probably it will have a few SA2 voices, but I really can't think of anything else I would want for my needs.

Perhaps some live synth control knobs like on the PSR-E423, so I can sweep the filter etc, or maybe an arpeggiator, although I already have that stuff on my Jupiter 8.

So, as you can tell...I'm pretty content with what I have...honest!

Ian

The Jupiter 8 is such an awesome synth. You are so very lucky to have one still in good working condition. I have to make do with my JX8P with a PG800 controller and I even love that synth. I still haven't heard a digital analog modelling synth that even comes close to it let alone a Jupiter 8.

I was very lucky with the Jupiter 8...I had sold it, and the guy I sold it to, sold it back to me several years later because he wanted another synth I had at the time.

When I first bought it, it had been used once in a studio, and a month or so later, the guy passed away (heart attack), and his widow put it in the case and stuck up it in the attic of the night club in Newfoundland they owned. She shut down the club, and lived it as a regular home, but eventually, she turned it into a boarding house.

She passed on, and the place went up for sale.

I got the synth at the estate sale...there were several other vintage items...a Rogers drum set, a Fender bass (one of the first...still had original strings, and picks with the store's name on them), a red Fender Contempo Combo organ (I wish I had bought that too), a Fender Twin, a Fender Bassman piggy back with two 12's, a Fender column PA system...everything was as new...apparently it was all bought, by the guy for the house band to use...the last instrument he bought was the Jupiter 8.

Some guys I played with at the time, in a band called the Ducats, a seven piece rock and roll show, bought the rest of the gear, and probably still have it.

The one I have, a Jupiter 8a, has a MIDI retrofit, and it is the latest version with the more stable oscillators and the 14 bit microprocessor (they were 12 bit)...nothing sounds like it, and everything works as it did the day it was new...I don't ever plan to sell it.

I had a JX-8P for a while, with the programmer, which was such a cool addition...that synth is becoming quite valuable too, especially if you have the programmer...it was an excellent bread and butter synth for all those strings, brass and organs, and of course, it was velocity and after-touch sensitive, and very warm sounding...I remember it had a "unison" mode, whereby it stacked two modules together (it was essentially two JX-3P's) and you had a three note poly sound that rivaled a Minimoog for balls.

Vintage synths are just getting to be a valuable commodity like guitars and amps....you've got a great synth there, Nigel...hold on to it.

Ian