i don't disagree with all of you at all.
every point you make re these things you can or can't do with a capo or transposer are correct.

but I just agree with Miles Davis..


dada dada dada da dada.."SO WHAT?"

[This message has been edited by keysvocalssax (edited 06-02-2010).]

I would not use the transposer if I was playing two handed style piano parts. Certain voicing aren't going to sound right- too muddy or too high.

On an arranger, that's so much of an issue. So yes I do use the transposer when backing a singer that sings in a diffenent key from the original. I alwyas mean to get around to learning the tune in the key of the singer but that doesn't always happen.

I do enjoying playing in all keys as an exercise. The other day I was practicing the bridge of "One Note Samba" in all keys. Now I can "quote" that melody in other tunes that aren't in the same key.

I like to take a blues lick in the RH and a boggie patern in the LH and run through all the keys.It gets especially tricky in C#, B, Ab, F#. I can do it in the practice room but I'd hate to have to play blues in C# on the band stand! It is possible but I'll leave that to the professionals. I have a day job, a family.... Rather than learn tunes in all 12 keys, I'd rather spend my time learning new tunes.

I use the transposer all the time. Sometimes the voice doesn't want to hit those higher notes, so I use it then.

Brickboo, i missed your reply earlier, and agree with you about the sax keys..except i'ts a bit harder for me because I've switched from Bb tenor to Eb alto and Eb sopranino, so all the "what note does this tune start on on my sax" that i memorized for years- now requires some severe mental juggling. Since I play by ear, I don't need to know the changes, I hear the changes..I just need to know the starting note if I have to play the head.

When I'm away from the jazz scene in Miami,
i'm up in nw CT in July/Aug/Sept..and so few jazz players up there so I sit in with several bluegrass, folk, and oldies groups. Much tougher than what you describe from guitarists, their favorite key is A..which puts me into F#, next favorite is D which puts me into B, next favorite is E which puts me into Db. Talk about finger-busters, playing awkward fingering transitions, etc.
But I'm grateful to them..I've developed a lot of facility in those keys now, and sometimes when that's all i play is with them
I get whack when I go play jazz and they call
Eb..I have no sharps or flats to play and I'm so used to playing them i start to fumble in what should be my easiest key.

So i'm not minimizing learning to play in all the keys..it helps the chops and if i had put in the time on my left hand on kb as i have on my right hand, I would be a lot better player now in some ways, even though I can do it all w/transposer. But on the other hand for me it was a tradeoff, as a lot of what i developed by concentrating more on other things would be behind in their development if i put that time into doing things the transposer does for me.

My inclination would be to fall with those who say they do both and make no bones about either..but i just haven't encountered too many of those.

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Miami Mo

I occasionally use a transposer; it's called THE SINGER. If she wants to do a tune in B, I just say, "we can do it in Bb or we can do it in C, PICK ONE". Why does it always have to be the keyboard player, never the singer or the drummer. I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore.



chas

because, Chas, the singer is entitled to sing in the key that best suits their voice for the song. so learn the tune in B or use the transposer, for crying out loud.

you get all these sophisticated kbd players here telling me about how transposing can make things sound too different, yet the singer is expected to sing in a key that's comfortable for the pianist..who should be the one transposing, not the singer having to change the vocal quality of the tune by singing in a place that's not their BEST place.

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Miami Mo

I think Chas's comment was "tongue in cheek", Mo...hence the smiley.

Ian

Ian, i got the tongue in cheek. Don't be condescending. I thought it called for the kind of response I gave it, because Chas was being tongue in cheek only about his attitude.. but what he was saying is so common re players v. singers that it's a cliché. Pianist really do think singers should just employ their range to be in standard keys rather than them transposing for the singer. As i singer, I know this is wrong. I remember when the great Carmen Lundy made her first CD, her voice sounded strained to me in many places...I said Carmen, why didn't you do those tunes half a step or more lower? Her answer: the guys in the band said if I wanted to be a REAL jazz singer i had to be able to sing in their keys, and Mo, after all, that was the great Larry Willis, who am I as a newbie to tell him what to do? I said, IDIOT, that is YOUR CD, it's YOUR art, YOU are paying him, and
if he was really THE GREAT Larry Willis he would have accommodated you instead of trying to intimidate you. Next CD Larry Willis was history and she sounded fantastic.
IT'S INEXCUSABLE, if you have a transposer and you can't play in the key requested, to refuse to play in that key. UP YOURS with the "it drives me crazy' crap..WHO CARES..
learn to get used used to it. It's your JOB.

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Miami Mo

I wasn't being condescending Mo...I was sincere, and my intentions were good.

Sorry.

Ian

Mo, do you not play tunes that have bridges in a different key from the A section? How do you do those?