In a lot of the discussions, we keep hearing about Yamaha’s market research and how they don’t want 76 key good arrangers.
When did that market make a drastic change?
Remember Yamaha did their market research and created the PSR 9000 pro (which was 76 keys).

And, it does not appear that that market disappeared because, other brands continued making 76 keys first when they made their TOTL arranger.

Roland went from the G1000 to the G70 both were 76 keys.
Korg went from the PA1x pro to the PA 2x pro both were 76 keys.
Ketron went from the SD1+ to the Audya both were 76 keys.
Lionstrack started with the Mediastation which was 76 keys.
So persons need to think logically and think where is Yamaha getting their research from and are they asking the right questions?
Or, are they just saying they are not creating a good 76 key arranger because of the PSR 9000 pro?

What gives.



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I have shortened my ID to TTG

You ask a predominantly elderly bunch of 61 note arranger players, or refugees from home organs (which had either 61 or even 49 note keyboards) what they want, you are ALWAYS going to get '61' as the answer.
Yamaha already THINK they are catering to 76 and 88 note players with their watered down arrangers posing as home pianos (despite being functionally identical to 76 arrangers, albeit crippled ones), and probably have the attitude of 'if you need a better arranger, there's always the Tyros or PSR line'

It's like asking a bunch of motorbike riders whether they want a four wheel bike... They already MADE their decision to ride bikes, a LONG time ago.

If Yamaha want to do some REAL market research, they should ask owners of 76 arrangers from OTHER brands whether, if they made a GOOD 76, would anyone buy it..? I think they would find a COMPLETELY different answer than asking people ALREADY happy with 61's.

The only way you are going to find out where Yamaha is getting their research, and if they are asking the right questions, is to sit down with (or contact) the Yamaha marketing research team and ask them precisely what you want to know.

If you know another way, please tell us.

Ian

As if they are going to tell ANY of us...!

Ian...That's a freeking laugh!

No way are they going to share that...
OK, I'll bite..please give us the contact info...I'll call them Monday AM.

I'll be very polite and honorly.

Lee S.

It is a laugh, Lee, and an exercise in futility.

No company would share that information...not Roland, Ketron, Lionstrack, Casio or Korg.

Maybe Genny knows something we do not.

Ian

Thats what i said...

Yamaha is only protecting their market and not trying to expand anymore...

Well, in the end everyone gets what they deserve...

genesys. Yes the market is very much fragmented. There are many different types of buyers

1. entry level keyboards predominantly for children aimed at parents with a smaller budget. Portability will be important to this market hence in the mainthey are 61 keys or less. size and weight is important to this nice.

2. There are piano arrangers aimed at piano students that cant afford a full size piano with a limited budget also . These tend to be 76-88 keys geared towards piano play. Portability is not the main concern as this tends to be used as a static instrument as in not gigged with. Used mainly for practise at home. size and weight is less crucial to this niche as there is a general acceptance of some compromise to get the number of keys.

3. There arrangers for the more experimental/performer/producer/songwriter with deeper editing and music making functions that are generally more expensive than the former aimed at a different demographic than the former 2. This buyer is likely to have more expendable income but will have a completely different purchase cycle. They are also likely to own more than one keyboard which might fit their piano /workstation needs more fully . They also tend to hold onto their instruments longer and dont 'upgrade every 2-3 years'

4. There are arrangers aimed at the mature market who want the top of the range functions just because they can afford it.They tend to be retired elderly pople who have no mortgage, no children at home and lots of leisure time .They will purchase every new top of the range or the next but one. They have lots of expendable income and tend to be home users in the main and are sensitive to the size and weight of the instrument.


There will be lots of cross over within the niches generally but these are the main segments of the market. But what is key is that yamaha have a product that meets EVERY SINGLE DEMOGRAPHIC.


ask yourself this :

What other manufacturer covers the ENTIRE arranger/piano with arranger functions market ??

Does Korg ? Ketron ? Roland ?? Casio

The answer is a resounding no. The reason is that yammaha have found a balance/product mix where they are attempting (and succeeding) to maximise their market share and profitability accross the range of arranger keyboards. They do this buy aiming their particular products at the various niche markets in the overall arranger market. Their most expensive arranger keyboard is aimed at the market niche that has the expendable income and generally upgrade everytime or every time but one to the next top of the line arranger. This particular niche market generally does not want or need 76 to 88 keys. If they want one yamaha offer one in their product range already. And for those with deeper pockets there is the CVP.

Heres the thing and i have mentioned this a number of times before. Yamaha is wary of cannabalising sales from their product range and so are very carelful about what features they offer in the numerous segments or niches of the market. Adding 76 keys to their top of the line arranger may gain more cutomers (or not) but it may also lose sales from their other 76 key instrumnets and worse, may alienate their already well developed well segmented sales from their existing customers who are size and weight sensitive.

Other manufacturers may wish to try and compete by offering 76 key arrangers and if yamaha saw a way to do that and could make the most profit from it (without cannabilising existing sales elsewhere) they ould do it. Its not an emotional issue for yamaha as it is for some of us. If it made good business sense , it would be done.

Well explained Spalding

Bill

Spalding very good post.
We can agree on segment 1 3 and 4.
I don’t know that segment 2 would not be a part of segment 1 but has 76 keys.

Now having said all of that, witch segment does the Roland G1000-G70, Korg PA1xpro-2Xpro, Ketron SD1+-Audya and Lionstrack Mediastation fall in to?

See you have just explained Yamaha’s fragmented market the way Yamaha chooses to fragment the market.
But the real question is is the Yamaha market that much different from the Roland, Korg, Ketron and Lionstrack market?


And I think you have hit the nail on the head. The issue is not 76 vs 61 but the issue is size and weight.
I have always said that if Yamaha created a 76 key PSR S910 successor with the size and weight of the Casio WK7500, it would sell even more than the PSR S910. And it would not affect any other Yamaha fragmented market (your segment 2) because as you said they are for different users.
A 61 key T4 does not affect the market of 61 key PSR S910.


One statement that was troubling was your last paragraph.
Correct me if I am wrong but it implies that Yamaha will always make the right decision and all other manufacturers have made the wrong decisions..




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I have shortened my ID to TTG

For this post I am referring to TOTL.
If you look at the arranger market or any keyboard market in its most simplest terms, they can be divided in to the home market and the professional market.

For arrangers, manufacturers try to cater to the home market, whiled trying to pick up some of the professional arranger market.


Yamaha has one concept and Roland, Korg, Ketron and Lionstrack have another approach.


Yamaha builds its arranger for the home user and includes some pro features to get some of the pro market. Yamaha’s concept is build it for the home market and who wants to use it professionally can do so.
Where as the other brands build their arrangers for the pro and believes that if it is good for a pro, it is good for the home user.
That is why you see more advance features on other arrangers as opposed to Yamaha.
So that is another way the arranger market is fragmented.

It is going to be interesting to see what Korg and Roland do with their TOTL arrangers now.


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I have shortened my ID to TTG

Great explanation Spalding...well said.

Ian

Hi Genesys
These keyboards, Roland G1000-G70, Korg PA1xpro-2Xpro, Ketron SD1+-Audya and Lionstrack Mediastation DO NOT all fall in the same niche market. We tend to look at these instruments as general arranger instruments but they are not to the manufacturer.

The mediatstaion is in a niche that some would argue has yet to be discovered in terms of clear demarcation and profitability. The Korg PA product is a true workstation arranger hybrid and will be more attractive to producers and style makers (especially eastern) because of its sampling and deep editing functions and its ability to fit in as part of a studio keyboard as well as live performance, but its weight puts the elderly mature buyers off. Also its operating system is more complex than yamaha. The Roland G70 and E80 lost market share almost entirely due to its weight. It was not well known for its deep editing potential (although i know it had some) or its sampling potential (it had none) so it had no redeeming qualities to appeal to any of the other niche markets although it was an excellent machine. Roland themselves didnt know who their market was and sold it in plainly stupid distribuition outlets. Ketron products were and still are the best kept secrets of the arranger world. However if you cant see a product , touch it and ghear it you cant sell it and few will buy that product unless you were already aware of Ketron

So what seesm like a simple question i actually quite complex.

Yamaha have some of the best defined target markets in terms of their ideal types of customer.

1. They know their customer and arnt afraid to listen only to their customer.
2. they know what their customers will buy, and how often and what features will apeal even down to the colours they prefer.
3. They know how their customers prefer to purchase in terms of distribution outlets amazon local music stores catalogues etc.
4. They understand that high visibility both in terms of advertising but a presence on the web throuigh forums like ours and elsewhere. They understand how important and strong branding is.

In other words they understand the market that they are selling to and they seem to be doing a good job at it.

Spalding another excellent post!!
You really have the ability to analyze and also realize that something is not as simple as some may think it is.

I would agree that Yamaha knows their market and are very confident (arrogant?) in their product . They do not do things for no good reason.
For example, when they increased the price of the XS lat year (in the height of the recession), I am sure that it was done with the thinking that the new XF would have been out in 2010 and rather than making it seem that the XF is costing more it looks as if the XF is the same price as the XS.

However, I don’t know if I am convinced that Yamaha understands their market.

Just and for example, if Yamaha took their 61 key customers and asked them if they would like a 49 and a 76 key arranger, I am sure the answer would be the same for both the 49 and the 76.
Now, if you ask them why did they give the answer they did, it would be for 2 very different reasons.
I wonder how much of the Why question does Yamaha ask.


And yes, one advantage that Yamaha has is that that they have markets across the board. So if you are a beginning player you get a Yamaha and after a few years you become good and want to play professionally, you can still stay with Yamaha because Yamaha also makes keyboards for professional player.

If you are a beginning player and you have a Casio, and later want to play professionally, you have to get another brand.

If you have been playing Korg, Roland or Ketron professionally and now want a keyboard for your little child (or your self) to play with at home, you have to go to another brand. (something that Iana thinks is a good thing)


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I have shortened my ID to TTG

It is simple really...Yamaha's customers indicated they preferred a 61 Key board with a lighter plastic case and did not have the choice. They still do.

The market is and was Organ players who never had 76 keys. Tomorrows assisted living and Moose Club performers may want 76 keys on the Tyros. But then again tomorrows assisted living audiences may want to hear Allman Bros and Aerosmith and Marilyn Manson too. I don;t think Moon River will fly with that generation. Arrangers may have a totally different bent then...or be extinct.

LOL If you own a Yamaha keyboard and you register (in may cases the dealers must do the registrations) you will likely get surveyed.

BINGO.....

However the question will be asked....how MANY would buy a 76 key version in ADDITION to the 61 key version (remember Yamaha does not want to mess with their very happy 61 key owners.)

Would it be a good financial move to try to garner a few other brand Arranger players who may be just as loyal (as you are to your Roland and many others to the PA2x , Audyas etc.) to their brands for reasons that go far beyond key count?


I rather think Yamaha believes those player play those boards for more reasons than another 15 keys and in that regard it would be guessing rather than knowing which they have know..Facts. their Tyros buyers want 61 keys ,buy 61 keys and given an equal economy sell more Tyros with each new model since the 9000.

They apparently do not think it is worth "guessing" how many will leave their Korgs et al simply for Tyros because it has 16 more keys. I cannot say I blame them. Sure they can survey a Roland owner who claims they may or would buy the Tyros instead if it had 76 keys. From what I read most people love what they play and would not switch to Tyros for 15 more keys. A handful might. Yamaha isn't ready to retool another plastic case and whatever else they have to bring to the table for the unknown when they already have a market they can count on and plenty of choices at that already.

People who really want a Tyros will buy them with 61 keys. People who don't won't buy them with 76 keys, 88 or 188.

The 76 Key S70SX is not selling nearly as well as the S90XS Now THOSE extra keys are a complete waste. But those who play 88 weighted apparently do not want 76 weighted. I have sold three S90XS while the only $100 less S70SX sits. For $100 more the 88 keys seems like a batter value and really is not all that much heavier




[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 09-25-2010).]

LOL... which makes it a self-perpetuating system, as, to get surveyed, you MUST buy a Yamaha 61. If your preference is for a larger keyboard, you are NEVER going to get surveyed, because you CAN'T buy a decent Yamaha 76...

And round and round it goes...

This couple of paragraphs by spalding I believe hits the nail on the head...

Heres the thing and i have mentioned this a number of times before. Yamaha is wary of cannabalising sales from their product range and so are very carelful about what features they offer in the numerous segments or niches of the market. Adding 76 keys to their top of the line arranger may gain more cutomers (or not) but it may also lose sales from their other 76 key instrumnets and worse, may alienate their already well developed well segmented sales from their existing customers who are size and weight sensitive.

Other manufacturers may wish to try and compete by offering 76 key arrangers and if yamaha saw a way to do that and could make the most profit from it (without cannabilising existing sales elsewhere) they ould do it. Its not an emotional issue for yamaha as it is for some of us. If it made good business sense , it would be done.

Yamaha's decision to not make a TOTL 76 has NOTHING to do with what customers actually WANT... It is about protecting their internal divisions and not cannibalizing sales in one sector by a better, competing product in another. This is the ONLY explanation I have ever heard that makes any sense... every other one is easily disproved, simply by showing other manufacturers being able to do it. Or Yamaha doing it themselves, albeit badly.

Maybe I'm an odd duck, but I completely fail to see how what size keyboard you prefer to play on has ANYTHING to do with the capabilities you need on that keyboard. There are 61 note players who need next to nothing. There are 76 and 88 note players who want everything that is available. The two things are completely unrelated. In the WS world, it is acknowledged as a fact of life that ANY keyboard needs to be available in all possible configurations. Yamaha don't say that 76 and 88 MotifXF players don't need anywhere NEAR the capability that 61 MoXF players do... they realize, only too well, that keybed choice has NOTHING to do with what a player needs out of their WS.

Main difference is, Yamaha have no other divisions with really similar products to the Motif. So the market hasn't been balkanized, and divided up so that intra division rivalry prevents them from making a product that there IS a demand for (or NOBODY would buy PA2Xpro's, Audya's, G70's, Mediastations, etc. ).

But, as Yamaha see no need to differentiate their WS line on size differences, it is hard to accept that, mysteriously, the arranger market is any different, and Yamaha's actions are based on pure market research. Bottom line is, even if the market research DID show a need, Yamaha would not make it, because it would clash with their current product divisions. And we would NEVER hear from them that they had seen the market, but chose to ignore it. We only have the evidence of our eyes to prove that...

BTW, just to address the size and weight comment...

Roland made a VERY capable 76 with quite a nice action, AND built-in speakers for only about four pounds more than an S910, the E60.

If Roland can do it, SURELY Yamaha would have no problem, and those happily lugging an S910 around (or the even heavier Tyros4) would have no problem. Few lug their arrangers around in cars, and gigging pros ARE the exception, rather than the rule. Moving an E60 around the house is no more burdensome than the T4 (less, actually). Time after time, excuse after excuse is so easily proven wrong, it makes you wonder WHAT you are thinking, offering up such flimsy excuses..?

If Yamaha had only ONE division that made and sold ALL keyboards with arranger capabilities, whether in piano cases, lightweight cases, 88, 76 and 61 sizes, I GUARANTEE that there would be a TOTL 76 in their line-up...

Diki why not a compromise 73 keys like NORD?

Statistically significant research is tricky. Rarely is it as simple as asking customers what they want and then having an R&D department make that happen.

More likely, the design of the research project is a byproduct of the need to answer questions related to a potential increase in PROFITS if certain changes are made. Yamaha could, for instance, easily identify a desire for a 76 note keyboard. They already know the cost adder to have 2 SKU's that are similar, price points, etc.

Any research on their part is designed to give them statistically significant data needed to assess way more than customer preferences. They link research data with data from cost accounting, product development...many other departments to decide what to produce.

Think about it. Do you think customers would respond favorably about carefully planned product obsolescence? I'll bet there IS research used to determine the impact of the decision to use planned obsolescence to introduce new models to maximize volume. They know, through their research efforts, how many people they are going to piss off and compare that to the increase in volume and profits they garner by frequently changing models. Just look at the vehicle manufacturers to see planned obsolescence, even, some say, to the extent that components are designed to fail at a pre-determined time or after a planned number of cycles.

My money would be on a belief that Yamaha is completely "bottom line" oriented (not necessarily a bad thing), has decided, based on some pretty good statistics, that the volume and profit is in home keyboards at specific price points and that not introducing 76 note arrangers is the best decision as far as the bottom line is concerned. They know that players who gig out with their products may want changes, but are happy enough with with what they are producing not to "jump ship". They know the size of this segment of the market and have decided their course of action based on some very good market research.

It's just that, as it is in most business situations, the research is focused on issues related to over-all business decisions, not just on customer preferences.

I feel I can comment with some authority on this matter. I have been teaching SPSS and
SAS research methodology at the graduate level for over 25 years and conduct statistically significant research for many large financial and manufacturing concerns, including an international manufacturer of vehicles and one of the largest electrical manufacturers in the world.


Numbers drive the process. And decisions are made to please the board of directors first; customers second.


Russ



[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 09-25-2010).]

Kingfrog...C'mon man..
Organs have 2 freeking manuals (at least)
44, 49 or 61 note manuals typically.
When you have that 76 in not neccessary and to me not desireable either.

Trying to do EVERYTHING 'some' of us want to do ...in 61 is rediculous.

Lee S.

Diki...I agree 100%.
I don't care what anyone says it is the only thing that really makes sense...division rivalry (or whatever you want to call it).

The Home Keyboards boys have been told..you stay in your sandbox...do not even think of bringing that great stuff in competition to us in the PRO division.
Ian, It may happen even though they don't tell 'you or your management' about it!

Lee S.

This is all speculation...the only one who has the answer is Yamaha.

Anything else is just a guess, supposition, or an assumption.

But they are all probably plausible...just not provable, and until someone from the marketing team, or a person in a position to actually know the entire true answer, presents it here, it will always be a topic without an end.

That's why this type of topic usually gets a high number of posts.


I'd say Russ and KingFrog would be the closest, but that's just an educated guess from my own experience...and, like the others here, I can't prove it.

At this point, I'm rather bored with the whole thing...it's been so over-discussed, and never solved.

So keep guessing and maybe Genny will get the prize for having the topic with the highest number of posts.

Ian

Some seem to suggests that Yamaha making a 76 key MOTL or TOTL arranger will some how take away sales from another Yamaha division.


Surely that can not be right? Lets take Spalding segmented market for Yamaha that he presented above (1, 2, 3, and 4).
If there is a 76 key arranger segment 2, if Yamaha makes a 76 key arranger in segment 3, would the segment 3 76 key arranger take away sales from the segment 2 76 key arranger?
Well if that is the case, then why is it the 61 key PSR S910 is not taking away sales from the T3? Why is not the PSR S710 not taking away sales from the PSR S910?

And I would almost guaranty that if Yamaha were to make their PSR S910 successor 76 keys only, but the same size and weight as the existing PSR S910, but with T4 style and sound and flash memory and XLR and the same price as the PSR S910, Yamaha would not see a decrease in sales.

DNJ and others who are waiting for the PSR S910 successor, would probably still buy that keyboard.

And the persons who like the DGX would still buy the DGX because of the reason Spalding stated above.



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I have shortened my ID to TTG

I see you are still trying to find your place in this forum Iana. Still not able to have a good conversation with mature persons. May be some day you would get there. Happy colouring!!

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I have shortened my ID to TTG

Genny,

Your recent postings remind me of an archer who always manages to hit the target, by shooting first, and then calling whatever he happens to hit, the target.

Bottom line is that this topic will have no conclusion, until someone from Yamaha marketing confirms or negates the speculations, assumptions, and musings being posted.

Many of us can recall similar hypotheses and theories being posted back when the Tyros, Tyros2, Tyros3 were launched.

Yet, Tyros4 remains at 5 octaves.

What makes you think this thread will end any differently?

Nothing has changed.

Ian

Ian
AMEN to that.

Here Eadith the first lesson.

Gilbert.

Dear Dear Iana. So you did not like that colouring book? Here is another book. It was made by Yamaha see if you like this one. If not you can go back to fingerpainting.
We the people will continue to talk about the logical reasons for Roland, Korg, Ketron and Lionstract for making a 76 key good arranger. You can continue to colour in your Yamaha colouring book.

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I have shortened my ID to TTG

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 09-26-2010).]

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 09-26-2010).]

"Dear dear?" Oh Genny, I didn't know you cared ...but, you best get yourself under control as my girlfriend will get jealous.

She loves reading your posts...you remind her of her dear sweet Mum.

And yes, continue to do what you do best.

We're countin' on it.

Ian

Hay Iana. Still have not found some one to talk with here on this forum have you?
I supposed since you are the only one hear in Kindergarten it kind of difficult to get some one to talk down to your level.
Perhaps you and your girl friend could sing some of your favorite nursery rhymes or you all can play rock paper scissors


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I have shortened my ID to TTG

Instead of all this bantering and speculation as to who and how many wants what, why not take a look at Yamaha's corporate information, then as I stated on another post, write them a letter. You can also call them, someone wanted their telephone number, at 717-522-9000. They are located in California.

This horse is so dead it's beginning to ROT!

Cheers,

Gary

That's bcause they give their customers a choice.
Lee S.

I have to chuckle when some persons state that this debate has been going on since the T1.
Don’t they realize by saying that it shows that Yamaha has not done what part of the market wants? If there was truly no interest in a good 76 key Yamaha arranger do you think we would be having this discussion over and over again?
If some persons want this discussion to end, then they should also ask Yamaha to make a good 76 key arranger. Until that time we will continue to asked Yamaha to give the 76 key arranger market what they want.

So for those who want this discussion to finish, do as traveling easy suggested and contact Yamaha and tell them to make a good 76 key arranger.

If the PSR S910 successor is 76 keys that would end the discussion.


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I have shortened my ID to TTG

So, Genny, does that mean that you are going to drag this discussion on for another year...or, are you going to shut up, and wait and see if the PSR-S910's successor has 76 keys before continuing?

Ian

And that is why you have a choice NOT to buy a Tyros and buy the myriad of Arrangers that have 76 keys or buy a MIDI controller for those extra 15 keys. Yamaha will not make the Tyros with 76 keys, If they had any intention of doing so it would have been done already. This has been something Yamaha has been very firm on. Their primary user base (Including me do not want anymore keys)

They sell more T2 than 9000 more t3s than T2s and I suspect will sell more T4s than T3s as Roland has pretty much thrown in the towel on Arrangers, Wersi and Audya is not US centric. All of them and Korg have their loyalists who won;t be buying a Tyros with any amount of keys,

really how many would give up their current non Yamaha Arranger for a Tyros if only it had 15 more keys? I would guess not many.....Yamaha would know "not enough"

I will offer this: The difference in price between the Tyros and 900 side by side would be a lot clearer and justifiable with a 76 Key Tyros

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 09-26-2010).]

Kingfrog,
I bought a T3....put my second MIDI 76 note keyboard under it...I was trying!
I wanted to use the lower (left of split) for LH...and the right of split for R3(or to play neat sounds on the Kurz.

Ran into a problem with LH hold functions. Called Yamaha support to see if they had a solution...they told me no we don't. I ask if they would request a fix on a firmware upgrade (next one) they said no...they wouldn't do that...because I didn't need the lower keyboard. They said this is a home keyboard and no one uses a lower keyboard (even though the MIDI functions allow for one)!

Returned the T3. Bought a PA2XPRO.
If it was 76 I would have kept it OR...if the LH features were correct..I would have used it with the lower board and kept it.
I liked it.

Lee S.

While I haven't actually searched back to see if this is true, I find it hard to believe that, prior to the 9000pro's debut, there weren't all KINDS of people (perhaps even the very same ones) asking why Yamaha didn't make a 76, and some people (again, probably the same ones!) gleefully predicting that it would NEVER happen...

Never say never...

What kind of market research did Yamaha do to convince them that there MIGHT be a market for a 'pro' 76 (even put the word in the name, Ian ) back then... I bet you they didn't poll the owners of their current 61's, THAT time round! One of the most inane things about this whole discussion is just how MUCH you have to completely ignore in the way of solid factual evidence, before the premise that Yamaha's decision to follow this path is based on solid research and actual data actually holds water.

Not only do all OTHER current arranger manufacturers find that there IS a market for good 76's, but Yamaha THEMSELVES, only a scant few years ago (and we CERTAINLY haven't changed as musicians since then!), found reason to make a TOTL 76. Plus, of course, you have to ignore that the 9000pro failed for reasons that had nothing to do with the 76 - or the 61 version wouldn't have failed, also.

You also have to ignore that Yamaha DO at this very moment make several 76's and 88's, they are just relegated to the 'poor cousin' 'home piano' division, denying them access to the technology that the pure arranger division gets. But they are still unabashedly arrangers in everything but name.

And finally, just as the cherry on the cake, you have to wonder about the shrill tone and combative stance of those SO determined to put themselves as avatars of the truth, and claiming that Yamaha will NEVER do this. If there WAS a preponderance of the facts to support their arguments, you wouldn't think this hysteria would be necessary. I sometimes get the impression that we are being treated like cartoonists depicting the Prophet Mohamed...

We have violated someone's RELIGION.

After all, the loudest braying about Yamaha's infallibility comes from ONLY the people that are satisfied with the status quo. Who also, in the event that Yamaha change their minds AGAIN, would have absolutely nothing to lose, and everything to gain. Imagine all those 76 players happily playing Yamaha, making far fewer 'bashes' (because that is what ANY criticism of Yamaha MUST be, eh? ) and jhoining in your little cult...

Nirvana! 'One of us.... One of us! One of us....!'

But no. The mere THOUGHT that Yamaha might not live up to their predictions is enough to induce this apoplexy of denial. Perhaps the bitter memories of Yamaha forsaking you in the past and TRYING to make something some of it's CURRENT customers didn't need (while not in the least preventing them access to what they already like) is bringing out this religious fervor..?

Just because the FIRST attempt failed, that's IT? 'If at first you don't succeed, QUIT..!'? Makes you kind of wonder why they continued with 61's, as bad as the 9000 was, also

It's time this discussion dropped the mantle of dogma, and started to relate to FACTS, rather than faith...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 09-27-2010).]

Hi Diki
All the feedback from dealers and owners I have spoken to over the years was that it was only the 9000 Pro that flopped, the 9000 sold as well as any other Yamaha Arranger.

If you want a Yamaha Tyros 76, then badger the Yamaha forums, dealers, distributers and manufacturers, (Forget the general forums) as if enough badger them and convince the accountants there is a profit to be made with a 76 Tyros, then they will make one.

Remember, if at first you don’t succeed try & try again. (Just make sure you target the ones that make the decisions)

Bill

Gary, it is far easier for these long of wind, and short of knowledge self appointed sermonizers to continue with the soliloquizing and empty bantering, rather than actually do something about it.

They don't want to listen to common sense, because, among that lot, common sense isn't very common.

That poor horse...

“They don't want to listen to common sense, because, among that lot, common sense isn't very common.”

Completely agree that is why we have to show Yamaha that it is common sense to make a good 76 key arranger.
So everyone, join in the campaign to get Yamaha to apply common sense and make a lightweight 76 key PSR S910 successor.

And to those who are tired of the discussion about Yamaha making a good 76 key arranger, don’t complain to me but tell Yamaha. Tell them you are tired of discussions about a Yamaha 76 arranger and you would like them to meet the demand and make a good 76 key arranger. Only then will the discussion go away.


[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 09-27-2010).]

That was because they released the 9000 pro when every Yamaha fan in the world allready owned a 9000...

And only those very desperate for 76 keys switched over and some new people went for the Pro too.

Just look at the 2nd hand Yamaha market overhere in the Netherlands, the 9000 pro is currently selling for more then the T1, i can only guess why this is offcourse.

I was under the impression that the 9000 suffered the same OS problems that plagued the 9000pro. But you say it sold quite well? I remain skeptical...

But, OTOH, it perhaps goes to show what a low-expectations bunch Yamaha's 61 note players must be, in general, to accept happily the same keyboard and OS that so annoyed the 76 players..!

I wish you the best of luck on your little campaign.

I have sent your request for a lightweight 76 key PSR-S910 successor to head office.

Ian

Sadly, as balkanized as the Yamaha divisions are, I have little hope there will ever be one. But I'm not going to stop asking for one, and I'm not going to stop pointing out some of the fallacies that get used to 'justify' Yamaha's decision...

And I appreciate the passing on of the request. I KNOW you meant to do that for me as WELL as TTG, of course!

Thanks for your support. I will use it with you in mind or some place else?

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I have shortened my ID to TTG

Neither do I...it seems the old "beating a dead horse" still applies.

Those fallacies that get used to 'justify' Yamaha's decision have yet to be proved "fallacies"...up to now, we only have uneducated guesses.

KingFrog posted the answer he received from Yamaha in one of his posts...I'm inclined to think it is true, but as always, you are skeptical...that's cool.

Unlike the skeptic, the positive thinker is one who, when he/she sees the handwriting on the wall, does not think it is a forgery!

Keep berating and insulting the manufacturer...it might get results, but then again...did it work for Tyros, Tyros2, Tyros3, or PSR-S900?

Count the keys on the Tyros4 and PSR-S910...that should give you a hint.

Good luck.

Ian