Its not a bashing post where i come from most people use 2 keyboards, after all its former organ country.

If you had to create a 2 keyboard setup containing out of T4 on top and a 76 keys unit (either synth, workstation, arranger or masterkeyboard) on the bottom.

Would you go for a M3 73 key unit that allows you to put both keys units very close to eachother and put the M3 module on top of the Tyros 4

Or maybe a clavia north electro III 73 for its awesome sound and its beautifull waterfall keys

Or maybe another Yamaha like a Motif XF7 because of your love for Yamaha sounds and teh added sound edditing capabillities.

Or maybe another arranger like the Audya or the Korg PA2X or a good old Roland G70..

or just a plain masterkeyboard like the Doepfer LMK4+ with hammerkey action...(and then add teh Audya 4 as a module)


To many options... what would add most to teh T4 in your opinion? And espescially why?

What

To get close to organ functionality, you HAVE to have the second keyboard in so close, you really have NO access to any controls or display, hence it needs to be a dumb controller.

But the Tyros' have several large gaps in their MIDI implementation that would allow the second keyboard to be functionally identical to the top one (the hallmark of organs). Sustain pedals, expression voicing, active controls, Part splits and layers, all of these are tied to the OS, so that registration change sets them all up exactly how you want them on the main arranger keyboard. But the lower keyboard is relegated to having to send ALL of these things independently of the OS. You at least double or even triple up your button pushing on the lower keyboard, and now are forced to separate the manuals just to get access to those controls the Tyros OS won't let you program in the registration...

It's a vicious cycle. Perhaps, now that Yamaha are trying to sell a lower manual to go along with the T4, some of these issues have got better. But no-one's reported it yet...

Up to the T3, Yamaha's could plug a second keyboard in, and it MIRROR the main one. What is needed now is a dumb one MIDI channel input for a second keyboard, that the OS determines what and how the layout on it is called up.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 09-27-2010).]

That's why the Regi Stick came about http://www.yamaha-club.net/shop/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=196 to meet demand.

Bill

If I was to add a 76 key bed to control a Tyros4..I would use what I have..A dumb (sorta)..A-33 controller..it would give me the midi din connection too...If the Tyros4 has the same key feel as my Tyros3 did..I would prefer playing from the A-33 primarily (piano etc)..

Where did you get this information diki? Thats new to me?

Is Yamaha actually adding a 2nd keybed as an addon?

Hay, thats brand bashing. Stop it.. The T4 has everything that everyone wants so there is no need to say it does not have a feature.

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I have shortened my ID to TTG

Come on guys what do you want that lower keyboard for...organ functionality you say? Then it is for playing styles (chord recognition) and the left hand sound. You get the whole arranger keyboard for your right hand and the registations affect both manuals. Only problem I found is muting the left hand sound but my controller has an independent volume slider on the side. If the controller can send on simultaneous multiple midi channels or splits you can use the song channels. Create empty song settings and your registration will change those songs with 16 channels/sounds for the lower keyboard.

OMG.... never played much organ, vagro?

One of the things on this forum that always gets a gasp of approval is watching a REAL organ player get the most out of a modern organ... Stagea, Scala, Atelier, you name it. And, the hallmark of that performance is actually PLAYING everything (or an awful LOT more than most arranger players do ) with your feet, your left hand as well as your right. And the ability to split the lower manual up into multiple zones, or have cross layers on an expression pedal or velocity, etc., all of those things that you can do on the top manual, you do on the lower too... Having many different sounds, all mapped to areas you can get to quickly allow you to vary what you play drastically over a simple one keyboard setup. Remember, two 61 note manuals is actually a 122 note keyboard! Now THAT'S better than a 76! (except for full piano parts ).

But just as you sometimes split and layer up the top keyboard to have two, three, four or more sounds on it, you should be able to do EXACTLY that with the lower, too. The idea isn't just to play on one until you need something new... it's that you have BOTH manuals as your 'main manual' Depending on which sound you need for a phrase (or just one note), your RH could just as easily be playing the top manual OR the bottom, And vice versa for the left. Add in some pedals, and, by having a keyboard where the lower manual is JUST as versatile as the top, you can play amazing things with little more automatic than just a drum beat (and footswitches to trigger the fills).

If all you do is play chords in the LH and a solo in the RH, who NEEDS a second manual..? But if you REALLY come from an organ background, having that second manual be as integral to the OS as the main one is is essential. Any 128 voice arranger is easily able to handle far more Parts than you really need. But until programming what the lower manual does is integrated into the main arranger OS, full organ functionality eludes it. An organ registration completely reconfigures BOTH manuals, to be whatever you want. At the moment, an arranger registration really only addresses the main manual (or its' mirror)...

It's nothing more than software, too. No arranger manufacturer would have to change ANYTHING physical to enable this. All they have to do is realize that there are many who might like to add another manual, organ style (nice and close), maybe a 76 or even a wood 88, but it remains a pain to do until a 'second manual' input MIDI channel is enabled, which would allow just as much configuration possibilities as the main manual.

Simple, really....

Diki
If you want to fly with your car buy a plane. If you want to play organ buy an organ. As far as I know Yamaha arrangers can split the keyboard into Style+LH, LH and RH...not too sophisticated isn't it? If you want to replicate that on the lower keyboard you won't even get to the heels of the organ's functionality you describe above.
I was only explaining you don't need to touch your controller to change sounds, you can use the registrations to change one and up to 16 voices in the lower manual. Regarding to part splits it would depend on the controller and probably would be fixed if you can't access the panel.
Yes, this is not flexible enough for the genuine organ player but those features are not included in arrangers probably because it's not convenient for their business other than negligence.

Victor

How about if I want to fly with my organ?

Look, I don't want an organ. I don't want an arranger. I don't want a WS. I WANT THEM ALL. In ONE keyboard. If I want to use it as a one keyboard arranger, I can. If I want to use it with a second manual and some pedals, I should be able to. If I want to use it as a WS, I should be able to do that, too.

It's little more than software. Programming in a set of commands to create a Lower manual layout for a one MIDI channel input should be child's play compared to most of the programming in an arranger. I don't want the WORLD. Just a LITTLE bit more than I have got

I sure as HELL don't want to pay $10k+ for an organ when a simple dumb MIDI controller and a set of pedals should give me almost full organ capabilities. But unless the lower manual layout is integrated into the OS the same way the upper is, it's a FAR more complex task to achieve this. And as doing this would be a simple task, I don't feel uppity suggesting that we could benefit from this feature. ALL of us...