T4 Vocal Harmonizer and mic section has been totally re-worked, it includes pitch-correction, presets for type of vocalist and a better gain stage for mic input.

I tried of few of the presets and they sound great, especially the duet setting. I wasn't as impressed with the T1, 2, 3, but the 4 sounds great

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www.AudioworksCT.com

Frank,

Does the harmonizer still have that annoying delay and cut out when turning on and off.

Thanks,

Gary

The Vocalizer is instant on and off, I can sing holding a note, and tap the VH button on and off, and the harmony will instant on and off without a hiccup


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www.AudioworksCT.com

At last!
DonM

Excellent news, Frank...that was one of my major gripes with the old harmonizer.

Glad to see, or more accurately, hear, it's remedied.

Let's hope the VH2 is in the next PSR-S-series...that would be terrific.

Ian

Frank..that's great news.
How do you think it now compares to the PA2XPRO? For one thing I know...the PA has no pich correction!

What great support...

Lee S.

I think the effects are better in the Yamaha.

There is also more adjustments that can be made with the Yamaha.

Also, on the Korg, if you add to the master reverb so you can "wet" the whole output of the keyboard, it adds to the vocals and you cant take it off

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www.AudioworksCT.com

Frank-

Would you be comfortable saying that the T4 harmonizer is superior to "some" external harmonizer units?

I have a big voice and the distortion problem on the T1 & T2 have always made it unusable for me. I've been really pleased with the Digitechs vocalists rack units through the years. I am due for an upgrade and if I could find the quality and basic features from the T4 harmonizer instead of purchasing a stand alone harmonizer, well, that would be quite appealling.

Thoughts?

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Bill in Dayton

You can't compare to let's say a Voicelive 2, but it is much better than what Yamaha has had in the past.

I think you might be able to use this one, but until I get someone with a big voice to try, I can't really tell if it will distort, I'm sure you will get more headroom from the T4 than the T3


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www.AudioworksCT.com

Jury is still out until......I can HEAR this Vh2 in action...and even then I want to try one out with my voice extensively in real time against styles and RH leads.......before I would even consider buying one. I hope yamaha realizes that the VH in a KB is a Deal Maker or Deal Breaker.

Hi Frankie,

I"m Encouraged to hear your positive feedback on the T4's new vocalizer. That said, any possibility you could post a short demo of it in action in: 'duet' mode, with live male voice + single female voice in harmony? Many thanks. Scott

Scott Yee Entertainment

Having it on a shelf alongside the Korg's and Ketron's (and do you have maybe a used G70 or E80?), is it possible to do a straight ahead barebones audio comparison, same mike and singer?

I am glad that the T4's VH is better, but let's face it, the bar was so low, almost ANY improvement would make it 'better' I guess the main question is... 'good enough', 'great', or 'better than the rest'?

I don't want to come off as bashing yamaha's harmonizer, especially when respected players on this forum have used it exclusively for a long time with no apparent downside.

I just know for me, it was 1000% unusable. I tried different mics, different EQ's, etc. and when I got to about 80% of my vocal output-it broke up into a million little distorted pieces of unusable mush.

If I whispered, it was ok...the tracking was different that what I was used to with the Digitechs.

Maybe if I started doing nothing but lullabies, it could've worked, lol...

Looking forward to more info...

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Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 10-07-2010).]

The second worst thing is that I always hear players that DON"T KNOW HOW to use the vocalizer in live performance correctly...
VH is an art form all to itself.

It's the same thing when you sing harmony in a group. It's all about blending. I teach this everyday to many groups of singers. You can't blow the walls out when you are singing with other people, or with a VH, which is in some ways the same thing. You have to keep your ears constantly on the blend. If you don't have that, you don't have crap.

Joe

Please Donnie, tell the rest of us how players should use the vocalizer correctly...



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Bill in Dayton

I think I disagree with your suggestion that VH users have to focus on the blend. By definition, the harmonizer is providing you digitally perfect blend every time. The singer may be off pitch or have other deficiencies in their singing, but the blend will be spot on.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean. If a VH user feels his blend isn't correct, what should they do to correct it? What could they possibly do?

You are 100% correct when harmonizing with others. It requires intense listening and shaping of tones to find a pleasing common ground.

If a vocalist using a Digitech or a TC Helicon stand alone unit sounds fine with it, regardless of "bigness of voice" but has difficulties with the on board harmonizer that Yamaha has provided through the Tyros line, then I'd say its more of a problem with the equipment, not the singer...

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Bill in Dayton

Again without hearing examples of singing using the VH ...nothing can be discussed.

Nothing?

For the purposes here let's say there's two singers, both male, both baritones/second tenor types. Let's say both are very good with pitch, intonation, etc.

One has a large, powerful voice...
One has a light, thinner voice...

How would you in general, advise them to utilize a harmonizer?



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Bill in Dayton

Again without "hearing examples" of singing using the VH ...nothing can be discussed.

Please post a few demos of the specific songs you are describing with the singing of vocal harmony is involved. Then we can possibly offer some advice.There is NO general method you can use.

Like I said, I'm pretty happy with the way the Digitechs Vocalists are working for me.

You stated emphatically that "hear players that DON"T KNOW HOW to use the vocalizer in live performance correctly...VH is an art form all to itself."

I gave you two different kinds of singers to discuss. You can't even begin to comment in general on what you'd suggest to these two capable but different singers?

OK, let's try something different.

You say there's no general method a person can use. Fine. Would you please discuss the method you use? (That takes care of the "hearing examples" issue.)

I just want to hear your thoughts on how a harmonizer should be used, since you obviously have strong feelings on the subject...




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Bill in Dayton

Singing & Music is to be heard first....then disussed.
So I guess you cannot provide an example either here or in a private email. With all the variables in the human voice, inflection, intonation, depth, key, vibrato,
phrasing, chord input, and much more tangibles.....you can understand why "LISTENING FIRST" makes for a more in-depth discussion on using Vocal Harmony via an arranger keyboard.

Good grief...

I asked you to comment on how YOU do it. Surely you're familiar with your OWN WORK?

You make this bold statement then run and hide when asked to expand on it.

I understand...



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Bill in Dayton

Getting back ON TOPIC...anyway who am I to give advice, I still look forward in a few weeks to totaly test out the Tyros 4 VH2 vocal harmonizer.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-08-2010).]

I think when folks use the word "blend" pertaining to the vocalizer...they are referring to the volume level compared to the lead voice...

Over bearing harmony, just does not sound natural and distracts from the lead voice..

To low of a contrast harmony level..does not sound realistic....but the proper "blend" can make both the harmony and lead sound real (or as close to real as possible with the technology).

The on board vocalizer on the Yamaha products I have owned...were not stable enough for me..it would distort to easily and was inconsistent (a mind of it's own)..Even the lead mic input seemed to have problems with signal level...

It seems that Frank is saying this is improved, but still not able to compete with the high quality stand a lone units..

Using a harmony correctly certainly includes ..knowing when to use it or not within a song...Overuse can ruin an entire performance ..all night long...sparingly can dramatically make the over all performance better..

When it doubt..don't use it..

Amen, Frank...I agree with everything you said.

It will be another really great selling point if the T4 harmonizer has the quality and capacity that the earlier models didn't. It will have to be pretty darn good to replace using a stand alone model, but its possible, right?

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Bill in Dayton

One of the things about harmony in the real world is, there is an enormous difference between three or four different singers blending together to make a harmonious whole, and a single singer, double and triple tracking to create their own backups.

Sadly, the machines tend to concentrate on the latter, obviously, but IMO it is the former that leads to the best sounding harmonies. Even Phil and Don had subtle differences between the two, and once you get up to Lennon and McCartney, Roberta Flack and Donny Hathaway and beyond, there simply isn't a harmony generator out there that can capture that! I must confess, in the five years or more of owning my G70, I haven't used it ONCE. If I want a harmony that bad, I'll get in a duo or up. I don't need the audience thinking that even MORE of what they hear isn't me than is already done artificially!

I have a nasty feeling that the pitch correction is likely to be the most used feature of the Yamaha's... I can't WAIT to hear some Mills Bros., T-Pain'ed up to the max! Better watch out, all you good singers out there... The dread Max Autotune is coming to a retirement home near you soon!

First, arrangers made bad players sound decent. Now they are going to make bad singers sound decent. What's next? Will we soon be able to buy an arranger that already COMES in a chicken hat..?

Hey Diki your getting much better...
you were able to insult ever Arranger KB Player, Singer, and Nursing Home Performer all in one post, Bravo!

(Brace yourself, Donny!)

I agree with what Mr. Pesce just said...

I'd say more but I have to go out in the "fake" world and do my thing...

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Bill in Dayton

I just got back from a "fake world" 61 key show....everyone really enjoyed themselves.
More faking tomorrow too....Yipppee!

Donny the Braced one

!

Only those that consider themselves 'bad' ought to feel slighted, there, Donny. I KNOW that isn't you, or anyone else here...

So just exactly WHO am I 'insulting'?

I simply worry that, almost the last bastion of competence was the live singer. If they had no pitch, they didn't gig. Pure and simple! But live pitch correction, and the willingness of audiences to tolerate it even when they CAN hear it front and center, well, all I can say is, you just got a LOT more competition!

And in this economy, that can't be a GOOD thing, can it?

Diki don't fall for that economy buzzword trap...... watch some baseball payoff games or some football.......Hmmmmmmmm? the stadiums are full?.....Broadway plays $175.00 per seat all full...Hmmmmm? concert venues, casinos packed with people, etc, etc, ETC>>> .......economy? bahahahahahaha....

BTw Go Yankees!

PS.. and thanx for your sympathy....NOT!

Only the lead dog gets a nice rosy view...! You know what all the rest see? But they are all driving the same path.

I guess as long as the baseball seats are all full, well, all's well with the world. Come down and join me on the Oil Coast. See if the view changes...

Many of my friends are relying on BP handouts just to pay the mortgage. Maybe BP should include some baseball tickets in with them..!

Yes I too, would have been interested in Donny's methods.

But taking the "....Who am I to give advice" copout that Donny then posted after yours, B.I.D, does not cut it, as far as I am concerned, and he should not be let off the hook so easily....I also note that Fran chimed in with a misdirect...Loyal!

Come on Donny you "talked the talk" on this one, now "walk the walk" (these are both saws that I HATE, but you do seem keen on them so I use them).

I do usually like most of what you write here, but Donny in this case you either share with us your "great" secrets on how you do this vocal harmony yourself, or admit you were blowing smoke, and really don't have much more knowledge than the rest of us....

Dennis

Seriously Donny...

I stepped up and wrote a few paragraphs on how I use a harmonizer. It didn't hurt a bit...

Dennis, myself and I'm sure a few others would like to hear your thoughts on the subject...

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Bill in Dayton

I am sure DNJ is working on a youtube to show us the right way on using a harmonizer. Come on DNJ, all ears are on you. You are the man of the hour. I to want to hear how you use a harmonizer.

------------------
TTG

C'mon guys... do what Donny does.

If he finally DOES post something that demonstrates his skill, ignore that he actually posted it, then after he finally gets you to begrudgingly admit he DID post it, bitch that it is too old an example to be what you actually wanted!

Heres a short demo of me using my Pa800 vocalizer using a Bluegrass style...
http://www.donnypesce.com/jambalyademo.mp3


let me state it's more of WHEN to use it vs how to use it.

Not bad Donny, bit too much harmony for me, but decent enough job nonetheless. Bit too much in the instrumentation too, but again thats just my preferences coming through

Thanks

Dennis

Page not found




[This message has been edited by Jerryghr (edited 10-11-2010).]

Thanks Donny...

It sounded fine...No offense, but I don't think that was the "its own art form" example, right?

Would you go into a bit of the detail on your approach with it in general, not just to that particular tune?

I don't even need to hear it-I'm more interested your approach, levels, etc. Like Dave and I did...

Give us a few paragraphs on how you approach it...

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Bill in Dayton

I approach it as if I had a few singers with me ....which I dont anymore sind reducing myself from 7 to a OMB the last 17 years.....using it sparingly is another good tip.....I try to use it just to enhance certain lyrical passages and still keep it in my own arrangement. I use to be a VH bogart but lately I have weened myself off using it too much as its bad enough people think were faking it when they listen & see to ONE MAN up there and all that music....
now your adding all those singing parts ....
it only digresses the authenticity versus the faking aspect to the audience & confirms to them that is not real.
I have since moved on from the PA800 in that demo a few years ago, thats when I started to notice how fake it sounded as in that demo, tahst why I posted it.........
& due to the fact that I now use the S910 & the VH wasn't up to par I really have been using it very lightly or mostly not at all anymore...
When I record in my studio.. I use a Digitech VR where I can really get into the separate harmony vocal tracks but many time I will just record single harmony vocal tracks which me the best flexability.........
I used to record my shows and listen to the VH with all my units Tc, Digitech, etc,......after a while it started to sound like a hokey gimmicky effect....using it live alot doesn't let you really give it it's due as when you can dissect it while recording in a studio.
There is no answer to try to tell you how to do it.... it has to be YOUR approach if your good enough to make it believable.....being someone is playing mostly cover songs then try to accommodate with the same harmony you hear in the original....I basically use LH chord triggering when using it live...but lately Less is MORE when it comes to gigging and using VH on stage as a One man band!
No vh will evert replace the "different human voices"...




[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-10-2010).]

WHAT?!?!? ... the link is gone already??? ... I click on the link and get something like this - although NOT in this format -

Donnypesce.com

What you need, when you need it

Bookmark this page Make this your homepage

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... and that's not the whole thing .. ???

No slight intended at anyone else (as I said, I couldn't hear Donny's tune), the ABSOLUTE BEST use of a harmonizer was by Uncle Dave, and unfortunately it seems his web site is no longer available ... I would LOVE for him to post his "Nightingale Sang in Berkeley Square" ...
t.

Tony Ive have since taken down the song .....although Daves version is realy great as he triggers the harmonies with his "right hand" chordings.......
one song doesn't make a vocal harmonizer....

... I don't think it was just one song .. "Nightingale" just stood out from the rest ...
t.

Thanks for posting that, Donny...

Seems like most of us are using older harmonizers, as opposed to the newer ones on the market.

I wonder why?

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Bill in Dayton

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dnj:
[b]Heres a short demo of me using my Pa800 vocalizer


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjeMDvCdrtc

[This message has been edited by Jerryghr (edited 10-11-2010).]

One of the best vocals I have heard on SZ....

Fran,

That was absolutely great. It sounded like a Yamaha harmonizer.

Tom

Well each to their own I suppose. I wouldn't go that far Fran, but it was decent and competent.And as I said before showed a little "over-use", but not annoyingly so.

Dennis