If you find any please post here.

Won't be any 'til the official launch, which is tomorrow I think (Saturday your time)

Are they kidding I want to hear and see the PA3x NOWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!

also why would they release the KRONOS today then let me ask?
Pa3x is just another arranger the Kronos is a "GAME CHANGER" !!!

I would suggest Donny, that as the Kronos IS the major release for Korg at this NAMM, they want it to get as much of the early Korg "press" as possible.

Don't worry the PA3 will be demoed soon enough

I'm hoping they at least use a GREAT demonstrator who knows what he's doing and can really play the thing to show off it's attributes !

& I wonder if Yamaha stayed away from releasing the S Series line because of the Pa3x also & waiting for the excitement to calm down & do it in Frankfort in March.Or will that come back to bite them and people are running off to sell their Tyros 4 after tomorrow

LOL, no Yamaha, like most corporations, already have their own timeline and are usually not influenced by things they cannot control.....

And an even bigger NO to your second question!! I really cannot see Yamaha owners madly dashing off to Ebay tomorrow to start listing their keys for sale!!!

Hmmmmmm?...Maybe your right as Tyros is firmly seated in the Home Keyboard market....I would assume with this new KORG PA3x release and the many great PRO features listed will expand arrangers further into the Pro arranger market the distance between them more pronounced.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiH2I9q6qHk

the first video

Nice find Shim!!

But now I'm disappointed that I watched it... That was one of the worst demos Ive seen in a long time.....I hope that wasn't the official KORG release demo because I would be embarrassed if it was OMG!

great find! that acoustic guitar at 0:45 sounds soooo good!

What a boring demonstrator. If I play this instrument I will have a big smile on my face.

all the acoustic and wind instruments sound so good! this is definitely up there with SA 2 voices! maybe even better?

Nick

I don't believe it as an official Korg demo, but interesting anyway. I want to hear some Country and Rock 'n Roll!
Fiddles, steels, guitars EEEEEHAAAAW!
DonM

The difference I find with the Korg wind voices, as opposed to the Yamaha SA/SA2 is that on the former, the note re-attacks with each keystroke...on SA/SA2 the attack (or re-attack) depends on if the player plays legato or not.

Small detail, but really adds to realism.

Maybe Korg's DNC will allow something similar?

I must say, I do like the overall sound, nonetheless...very clean, but with character.

Ian

Well, maybe it's the demonstrator, or the sound quality...but I didn't hear much in that to sway me over from the PA2x..

I see Korg still have the issue with the right hand voices being way too loud and out of balance with the style mix..Although again this might be the setup preference of the demonstrator.

YOu can hear the EP's from the SV1- though, very smooth. Thats about the only thing, to me, from this demo that stands out...

I tend to agree with Ian's comment in another thread (on advice from his contact), it is quite similar to the PA2.

For me, I will need to hear the official demo, with all the other new features to make a firm decision.

So far, it's okay..that's about as high as I can go...

Dennis

Here are the new Korg specs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kO0mdYUdDY&feature=related
Bebop

Hi Bebop, this youtube video was posted weeks ago as "leaked information" or "just speculation" and people started dreaming and speculating from there...

looks like after all this time it was actually real!

ROUND ONE.....


TYROS 4 by a Mile!

sadly i have to agree DNJ. Sonically, the Tyros 4 is still clearly ahead . Features wise the Korg is still way ahead. Its a shame that i would have to compromise sound for features again if i bought the PA3X. Looks like my cash is going to stay in my pocket until the PA4X if there is one. What a shame.

something is really fishy here with the pa3x

Looks like most here are putting salt in their soup before trying it, but for now from what I hear, I am leaning towards KETRON AUDYA or even a LIONSTRACS than anything else, two things that I am already disappointed, polyphony 128? and user RAM? 256 in what 24 bit? and 512 megs in 16 bit? what about compatability? are we starting from scratch again? with the PA3X? it looks like it? well, hardware wise LIONSTRACS blows everyone away with it's specs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktKT-BVX0Ls&feature=player_embedded#!

Same ol same ol, I hope it get's better? on the DEMO's looks like they are unprepared, big time

2011 Naam: PA3X Presentation Videos, by KorgChina:

Part 1: Steve McNally:



Part 2: Mr Francesco:

The audience must be sitting there saying to themselves WTF?

the man demonstrating the keyboard is the person who designs and creates all the korg pa keyboards since the PA80........so be nice!

Does "PA" stand for "Prepared to Be Amazed" ? I hope not!

Man, that harmonizer is awesome...especially used with the MP3 player.

This is a fine instrument...sounds clean with lots character.

I'm not fussy on the speaker bar, but it isn't any worse than the attachable speakers on T.

I think we have a "Long Train Runnin'" style for the Yammies...buddy sure likes the Eagles.

Ian

Donny,
Come on man....this is one hell of a machine...you can not do any judgig of sound based on these preliminary, poorly done demos taken by a hand help vid camera with a built in mike.

As the days and weeks go by...then we will hear the true instrument.

One thing for sure...Korg does not do the demo job that Yamaha does...but...you are not buying the demontrator!

Lee S.

I think Korg's are worse because they block your hands from the audience's view even more so. With Tyros, they can see your hands. I am actually surprised that they built something like this... I would think that with a little input from giggers, they would get my reaction. And they do call this a "professional arranger," so I assume they are going after giggers.

Like I said before after looking at these demos...
I'm impressed with the features ...
I am not impressed at all with the sound. For $4000.00+ it needs to be on par or better then Tyros 4 sound wise at this point. The silly looking speaker you don't have to purchase it's an option. weather it blocks your hands or not doesn't matter people are hearing a whole band with one person making or controlling the music & smart enough to know its all automatically generated somehow after all it's an arranger keyboard.

My beef with the Tyros speakers is the fiddly setup (two sats and SW)...I prefer built ins, which is another reason why I use a PSR-S910.

Also, I'd never use an MP3 player, let alone need two of them, but there will be people that will find them essential in their performance.

These instruments, Tyros4 and Korg PA3X, are intended for different markets, although they do overlap in many places.

So far, the Yammie seems to be more of a player's instrument in style play mode, but, subsequent Korg demos may show they are closer than I think.

I know I'd sure love to spend a few days with a Korg...some of those styles are excellent.

Ian

It is ludicrous to judge the Korg's sound quality by one day's worth of camcorder videos. I have always been impressed with Korg PA styles and I look forward to checking this machine out. I hope it turns out to be a real winner and huge success. That would help the arranger world.

At this point T4 is a Great sounding HOME players unit & the new Pa3x is much more from it's aluminum body, black look, sliders, Tc VH, editing, touch screen, chord sequencer, dual Mp3, & soooo many more features geared for a "live gigging musician"....it's a difficult choice that needs to be weighed by the individual needs of the player.

In my district or sales area, we sell a lot of S-series to pro single performers (including a lot of guitar players/singers) and Tyros is 95% home product...very few performers using TOTL arrangers...most use S-series, or SMF players and a piano, or a workstation. The home market is very lucrative, as you know...they pay more money, much more willingly, than the pros, who need to make a living, and want a low overhead cost outlay. Pros will dicker over prices much more aggressively, hence the cheaper prices on workstations, and low profit on arrangers sold to pros.

Again, this is in my area...it may work out different elsewhere, although we do have a very high number of arrangers sold here...lots of interest...lots of clinics too.

Ian

Having a Tyros at home with an additional complimentary
S Series for gigging really makes sense on many levels.

Frankieve has a video of him playing the PA3x on his Facebook page.
DonM

Don, I found the still pic, but 'where's' the video?

One of the top posts on his page. Not Audioworks page, but Frank's page.
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150393135730065#!/profile.php?id=862970064

DonM

The acoustic guitar at the end sounds great...you seriously thinking of getting one, Don?

Ian

Nah, the PA3 is NOT for me!!!

Too close to what we already have, and there ARE better options coming soon .....

What's coming at MusikMesse, added to my PA2xPro will blow this PA3x off I think...

Can't say more than that at this stage

Dennis

Sounds great! Love how playing legato triggers what sounds like hammer-ons.

I hope Korg will post some high quality audio demos soon!

DocZ

Doc those things you can already do on the PA2x

It's the exact same DNC system.

All that has been changed on the PA3 is Korg have added a few more patches. BUT, the tech is exactly the same as on the PA2. You can even program your own DNC sounds on the PA2 (if you have the time or inclination) as well, as all the samples are on-board.

No,this unit is definitely no-where near enough of a change for me. All pretty much same-old same-old!!

Dennis

they are all great instruments. They aren't toys. They will sound as pro as you want depending on how pro is the player. The Tyros is a pro instrument as it is the Korg.

For a change, I actually agree with you

yes the PAx3 specs don't look anything too groundbreaking.....what is it, 128 mb more RAM and 50 more styles? Wow. Big deal.
Not that Yamaha did much better with the Tyros 4...

It seems to me that the Kronos was the real advancement, with it's disk streaming for samples. It has 12 gb of samples. That's quite an advancement for a workstation.

i guess my expectations were too high. I actually expected them to add totally new styles, totally new sounds etc. There are major differences in terms of the added features but i am simply not impressed . It souinds no different to what i hear on my PA1X. I know much was made of the EDS sound system but i could not hear any major difference. It wasnt night and day. This is mostly repackaged PA1X with some deeper functionality. With Tyros range you can hear the difference between the T2 and T4. Not so much with the T3 to T4 but still there is a difference sonically that you can actually hear.

I really really wanted to love the PA3x but so far i am not. Maybe the additional functionality in terms of the FX Routing etc might be worth looking at more deeply but not for nearly £4000 . nope , Korg are not getting my money this time. Neither is yamaha. i will stick with my Pax another couple of years

How you perceive sounds, and the type of sounds you like, (Not forgetting comparing them with real instruments) can make a big difference to how you rate a keyboard.

As an example, when I heard and tried the T3 (A number of times) I found that apart from the SA2 voices it was way inferior to the T2 (1 step forward, 3 steps back (To me a bit of a lemon) with a very poor compressed sound.
The T4 however (To me) I find is so far ahead of the T3 (It’s what the T3 should have been) that it is a worthy successor to the T2, and Yamaha can be proud.

Contrast this with the PA2x, (After the first update) which for me was so far ahead of the PA1x as to be unbelievable (It was like chalk and cheese).
As to the PA3x,(Like all keyboards) I will have to wait till I hear it and try it live, as there are just too many variables in online demos.

As you can see, the above is pretty much exactly opposite to Spalding’s perception of the instruments. (Hence I always say, try the keyboard live and compare it with real instruments before making a decision)

Bill

Bill posts like this only heighten the need for more OPEN ARCHITECTURE keyboards....it's nuts buying, selling, every 2 years or so......these companies are raping the public.

No, no, when you consent, it's not rape!

DonM

Thats the scary part......

The difference is bill that i play my PA1X every day both live and recording, through external speakers mixing desks and the internal speakers. I know each sound very intimately so i know when i am hearing the same sound from the same samples again. Forget the marketing. EDS means nothing when i know i am hearing 80% of the same samples because i play those samples everyday. Thats why i know the step up from the PA2X and 3X sonically is minor. For a short while the Korg PA.com site had the PA800, PA1x and PA2X demos at the same time on their site. All recorded using the same parameters . Many of the demos styles were exactly the same for all three models and all three demos sounded exactly the same. At the time when i pointed this out i was told ' you have to hear it live , you cant tell from online demos' . However i have since heard the 2x live and i am glad i trusted my ears originaly. The only difference is DNC technology but tell me what has korg done with that ? Where are the styles or individual sounds that exploit DNC techniques. Compare the list of SA1 and SA2 sounds from yamaha and pit it against the very best DNC sound (of the handful) Korg have to offer. I am a straight up Korg fan but if i were marking Korg for their latest offering in terms of an upgarded keyboard i would have to give them a C+ . They could and should have done much better .

No doubt they will still sell loads of them but if you think i have gauged it wrong go to the korg forum site and see how quiet the PA3X or 2x forums are. Either people have been shocked into silence or noone wants to say the 'the king is not wearing any clothes' (if you remeber the story).

PS i am begining to sound like Diki and his love hate relationship with Roland ha ha ha !!

Hi Spalding
All valid points for the Korg, however neither of us own Tyros keyboards, and our perceptions of them are still almost totally opposite.

Regarding SA & DNC
The Yamaha sets up everything for you, but has limited editing, whereas the Korg DNC can be truly personalised to your playing style.

As to which you prefer (1 button press and everything done for you, or you get given the tools and then do with it as you please) is a personal choice, and I am in the camp of full user customisation. (Hence my preference for Wersi OAS, as I am not dictated to by the manufacture as to what sounds I can and cannot have)

Should be interesting to see what the PA3x is priced at, as at the moment the PA2x is the cheapest TOTL Arranger out there, (At least until the Music Store specked Pegasus Wing is launched) and significantly cheaper than a T4.

Diki has probably already ordered one, as he has always said over the years (In many posts) that the first manufacture to add a Chord Sequencer would get him to open his wallet.

Bill

that's how it looks on the surface. Surprisingly, the Yamaha has something very useful that the Korg doesn't have: the chord track. I am always saying this.

And the chord track is the reason why I have chosen a Tyros, other than the great sounds, otherwise I would probably go for a Korg too as it has more editing capabilities, as you said.

I personally think theat people that love the Korg sound, could better go for a KRonos and then add an Audya 4 for style play, or even better after the Musik messe the new Groove module brought to us by James... If only they could get us high quallity styles comming from their high quallity machine....

Here's the very latest Korg Pa 3x demo:
given by Steve McNally at the Naam Korg booth yesterday ( Jan 14th):

It seems odd that manufacturers would showcase something and it won't even be out for likely another five months. That's a long time! It seems they would get more sales by people wanting one. The I-want-it-now syndrome.

I'ts Moore's fault!

Tyros 4 or psr s 910 has nothing to worry about.

Yammy style auto fill (after 10 years) Roland style Chord sequener/More FX and great harware and improved VH.But these guys are still missing the point .Korg styles (Long train running style sound the same as PA 50) in general still suck.

Wake up Korg! = If oyu can't fix your style department (more and more), you are not fixing anything (if you want to sell an arranger).

I just hate the way that sound bar looks .... it better sound good, but I'm skeptical!

I am surprised that musicians on this forum some of them even pros judge the PA3x based on youtube videos. Amazing.

Thats true, but i personally think the specs are almost identical to the PA2X, no innovation at all... So it has to be the sound that improved hugely, but from people that visited NAMM is that it almost sounds identical to PA2X, with minor upgrades..

Seems Korg itally did what Yamaha is doing for the last decennium..... minor upgrades to get as much money as possible out of outdated hardware...

jamman,
MANY people prefer the Korg styles to the Yamaha styles.
Otherwise...why would they sell more arrangers 'world wide' than Yamaha?

Yamaha styles are great at intros and endings but sometimes too simple(boring) in the VARS. Korg does not have many sound specific styles...but many very useful general purpose styles with lots of content in the VARS (Yes sometimes too much and it's easy t turn thoe parts off).

I like them both.
Too bad we can't run both any either one!

Lee S.

Come on gang...you CAN NOT judge the sounds, styles etc from these lousy, poorly done demos. You need to play one yourself, try the sounds that you care about and check out all the styles yourself.

Speaking of demos...Korg should be embarased by the demos they have done. You talk about unprepared....If I were the manager of Korg USA...I would be thinking of something better (like replacements). Come to think of it...Kog has never ben woth a Shxx on demos...as compaed to Yamaha anyways.

If I ran the operation...I would step up the professinalism and quality of the demos 10 fold. Don't they know were all watching.

I have heard very few actual sounds, or styles...seems like they do the same kind of demo each time. Yes I know it's a show...but...lots of first impressions are not so good to many people! If your going to launch a new product...do it right.

OK...I feel better.....
Lee S.

Minor upgrades?
Look again. Problem is people want to much and pay less. Personally I find the sound of the PAX2x already great and now they have 128 mb more of great sounds so what do you want more? And with all these advanced features on the PA3x he is still about $1000 cheaper then the Tyros4. Again what do you want more? All I hear is complaining. I think Korg did a great job on the PA3x

Korg sells more arrangers 'world wide' than Yamaha?!
Lee, where are you getting your information from?

Perhaps Lee is referring to TOTL (and/or MOTL) arrangers?

If you add up all the Tyros, and PSR sold worldwide, there may be drastically different results.

Ian

Bill,
Quite honestly it is the sounds that really matter to me in the end...my gosh...the features in th PA2 were pretty darn complete.

Read the specs again...there is plenty there. 4 fills, autofill, chord sequencer, my GOD esentially a Voice Live 2 VH.that's huge, twice the intermal ram means much better souds, 8 effects...that's twice the PA2, new drums technology, 120 oscillators instead of 19, final mastering efects by WAVES...that's top drawer, new pianos & EP's (no there not the same as PA32), My GOD now we can inport many file formats to the sampler, includin Akai, 50 new styles, realtine channels nowhave buttons---hurrah!, imprved TFT touch screen, more DNC sounds.

That's a lot...

That's a H of a lot more than the change from T3 - T4.

Me...I'm looking to hear it...and I mean top qulity demos of many of the sounds and styles. Better yet, in person...then I can hear the sounds I care about.

If they did't get the sounds I like/need right...the I will get a T4. I love the depth, editng and all the PRO features of the PA....but I will not comproise the sounds. Not again.

Lee S.

Thanks for summing up all the extra features Lee. And some call this minor upgrades

Scott, it is true...The Mid-East, asia, etc buy TONS of the PA because of some of the unique featues they need. Mostly the PA800. Go to You-Tube & put in Korg PA800, the demos won't be Frank Sinatra!
If you talk USA, UK etc...Yamaha would be much more than Korg.

Can't say...but it is the same person that gave me the specs on the new PA3 weeks ago. And you notice I only said...get ready it's coming. Let's put it this way...he's not in Kansas!

It's real easy to forget about all the rest of the world, no matter here you live.

Lee S.

Sound is probably the most basic of reasons why we buy...new features are great, but we can do workarounds regarding the lack of them...sound, however, has to be great to begin with.

I think the Korg has really added some great features, and, at least on paper (or specs), it appears the sound is also improved....but, as you say, hearing it and playing it in person will be the deciding factor for those who want excellent sound as the most important feature.

Not being a vocalist, I rely on useful and very playable sounds for my gigs.

Ian

Ian,
Absolutely true..Korg has no entry level machines...I would love to have just a nickel for every Yamaha keyboard of any kind sold. :-)

I am only talking MOTL and TOTL arrangers.

By the way...one reason I am re-evaluating the Korg vs Yamaha is the fact that so many Korgs players are non-US. Many are superb musicians...but I don't have anythig in common with them as to music...so the commorodery is not there. And maybe the T4 sounds are more suited to what I play/enjoy?? Not sure yet...I'll have to see how the PA3 sounds.

Maybe I can have more fun and commorodery with th Yamaha gang?

Lee S.

Perhaps the "BIG" attraction to Korg (and Ketron) arrangers, especially by the middle eastern market, is because they produce 'oriental versions' of their arrangers. I believe the last Yamaha produced oriental arranger was the PSR OR-700. What makes the 'oriental' arranger unique are it's Arabic drum-kits & Arabic instrument voices, and it's unique on deck 'set of buttons' which allows you to conveniently change the scale tunings.

Interestingly enough, one of my middle eastern musician friends has recently shown me how to turn my Tyros 4 into a middle eastern 'oriental' keyboard by assigning the various middle eastern scale tunings to reg (1-8) and importing custom middle eastern drum-kit sampled instruments. I believe once more middle eastern musicians discover this, they'll be drawn to the Tyros 4 as well. Bottom line, I believe Tyros 4 a most versatile instrument suited to many many styles of music, from music studio production to on stage performance.

I think that it's probably a case of Korg users, rejoice! Everyone else that already had decided against Korg PA2, the difference isn't radical enough. Which is fair enough, because, bottom line, if you didn't like the T3, you probably don't go ape over the T4, either.

With pretty much ALL keyboards coming out with new product that has at BEST 10% new stuff in them (samples and styles), who in their right mind honestly expects anything radical and game-changing? Not only would it cost a FORTUNE to produce, it would alienate all their existing customers that DO like the previous product.

I am going to be disappointed if Korg have only managed to come up with a tiny few DNC sounds for the PA3. To be honest, it's this feature alone that can get then into parity with Yamaha, at least for RH sounds. They have the technology, to not leverage it is shortsighted. At LEAST matching Yamaha's SA2 count with genuine NEW sounds recorded specifically for the feature would seem to be necessary, or they are STILL playing 'catch-up'. And yes, 50 NEW styles is paltry. If it is backwards compatible, which apparently it is, they should ALL be new, and users can load in their old favorites as needed. When you are behind in a race, that's the time to try HARDER, not coast...

Maybe things will turn around for me this season down here on the Oil Coast... I know I always said 'first out with a CS, I get it', but honestly, most of my work these last two years has been live band and studio, so it's not as big a deal as it used to be. But I have a close friend who will be getting one for sure. His entire ACT revolves around them (he's a great two fisted player) to the point that, while he has a G70 and a GW-8, he STILL gigs on a G1000 or G600, just for the CS. So, at least I'll get to try one when they come out...

I am amazed at the feeding frenzy that goes on whenever any new product is thrown in with the sharks at NAMM. How many times have you seen something that got torn apart based on a few lousy NAMM demos turn out to be a pretty decent piece of kit? I blame overly optimistic (blue-sky high, to be honest) expectations from people that SHOULD know better..!

C'mon, man! What was the LAST thing you ever saw in a keyboard that was UTTERLY new, different and game changing from it's previous model? For me, it was probably the DX7... And that's a LONG time ago!

"Game changers" do not come arround very often, simply because they are milestones that cost a fortune to create, and they are supposed to set the standard for many generations to come. Usually they make "mini game changers" that show off new technology to test the waters. Anyone remember the Yamaha VL series? Also Yamaha is a larger corporation than Korg, they will be a lot more hesitant to do new things - and they produce so much more than just keyboards - keyboards are probably only a tiny fraction of their revenue. I also think that this NAMM was pushed on Korg USA and they might not have been ready for it. If the PA3X was scheduled for a April release, maybe the demos were planned for the Musikmesse instead of NAMM. I have seen many other demos by the Korg guys where they were far better prepaired. Steve can actually make Michael Voncken look like an accountant when he is in the zone. Also if Korg is talking about creating a style store, and want beta testers for the OS - that tells me that the final PA3X is far from finished, and we might see even more minor features when it is officially released.

Truer than you think Bachus...

Oh and the Groove XR, strictly speaking is NOT be brought to you by James, or Irish Acts et al.

There has been a business collaboration between some folks to create a new company to build and create the XR.

More details at MusikMesse, but suffice it to say, it has been re-built from the ground up. Brand new up to date componentry. New and updated audio output stages and amps. Brand new PCB designs and construction.

The new XR is really going to turn a lot of heads....I don't want to sound like I am a fanatic, I'm not, but this XR rack, apart from the Kronos, is the first thing in a long time to get me really excited about a coming release. Even to the point of pre-ordering, sight unseen!!!

James IS contributing very heavily, and is providing all the ORIGINAL (fully created by Irish Acts Studios) sample base. Of course all the usual Giga Sample capability will be there too.

But for me, getting a full sound-set created by James is worth the "price of admission!!!"

Anyway, keep it on your diaries to check it out when MusikMesse arrives.

I cannot say much more than that. But check this link for a lot more info..... http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=57931

Dennis

Have Korg done something similar to Yamaha and allowed for protected style formats then? Opening a 'style store' to style creators, without copy protection is of no more use than whatever marketing opportunities style creators already have. If the style can be copied and emailed to another user, that's 90% of the revenue GONE. Whether Korg handle the transaction or the creator does it himself...

And if Korg want to send me a PA3, I'll beta test the bejeezus out of it for them! They aren't getting it back, mind you...

Asia - Incorrect


KORG SELLS MOST IN MID EAST (TURKEY/GREECE/ARABIC COUNTRIES/BALKANS AND EAST EURO COUNTRIES), THEIR LOCAL STYLE SOUND SUPPORT IS GREAT.ALL MOST ALL ARRANGER GIGERS/SMF PLAYERS HAVE KORGS(USED TO BE ROLAND IN THE 90'S).

EXCEPT FROM INDIA (AND NEW CHINESSE PA 500 VERSION) THE REST OF THE ASIA IS DOMINTAED BY YAMAHA - THAI/MALY/INDO/V'NEM AND PHILIPPINES AND OF COURSE JAPAN TOO. THEY PLAY WESTERN (NOT COUNTRY) TYPE POP AND BALLADS IN GENERAL.

HOW EVER MID EAST ( AND EAST EURO FOR A MINOR PART)MARKET IS MORE THAN 50% OF OVERALL AND KORG IS NOT WILLING TO GIVE TO YAMAHA. YAMAHA'S OR VERSIONS FAILS TO COMPETE WITH KORG MAINLY DUE TO LESS PUNCHINESS AND UNABLE TO LOAD SAMPLE DATA PLUS LACK OF LOCAL STYLE SUPPORT.



US/CANADA WEST EU AND MOST ASIA - YAMAHA
MID EAST/EAST EU - KORG


IT'S ALL ABOUT STYLES. KORG HAS MORE 9/8s WRITTEN FOR THEM AND YAMAHA HAS MORE 4/4s WRITTEN FOR THEM .FOR WESTERN STYLE USING GIGING MUSICIAN (NOT THE SMF PLAYER) YAMAHA IS REGULARLY CHOSEN.

TYPE PA SERIES IN YOU TUBE - 90% OF THEM WILL BE MID EAST USERS.
TYPE TYROS OR PSR - 90% WILL BE WESTERN (NOR COUNTRY)MUSIC STYLE PLAYERS

EVEN THOUGH KORG HAS OVERALL PUNCHINESS/LIVE SOUND /BETTER HARDWARE - THEIR 4/4 DEPARTMENT MUST BE IMPROVED TO STEAL THE MARKET.

i'M OFCOURSE TALKING ABOUT STYLE THIRD PARTY SUPPORT.

WITH THE PA 3X (4 FILLS WITH AUTO FILL BUTTON ) HOPEFULLY THE GAME WILL CHANGE.IF ALL YAMMY STYLES WILL BE CONVERTED WITH CORRECT FILLS (THAT WAS THE PROBLEM WITH 800/2 X -3 FILLS/BREAK BUTTON )AND THAT MEANS YOU'LL HAVE A BOARD WITH BEST OF BOTH WORLDS IF YOU SPEND ENOUGH TIME TO RE TWEAK THE CONVERTED STYLES.

Hey Diki I agree with you for sure here but I think Korg have undercut them self by saying "50 new styles"...

the truth is they probably still kept the rest of the styles from the PA 2X's names the same but re worked most of the style parts to make them sound different.

Yamaha Do this with the Tyros 3 - 4... Tyros 4 probably only has about 50-100 "new" styles but the remaining 200-300 still have the same name as the previous model but they could sound completely different...

I Doubt that every style ported across from the PA2X into the 3X will sound the same. There will be re voicing and complete new arpeggios / loops etc...

this is something you cant really tell until you go into a store and play one. But it is definitely something I have noticed over the years with upgrading Yamaha PSR and Tyros Keyboards...

Nick

CAPS LOCK IS ANNOYING, WHY ALL THIS SHOUTING?

Btw,
agree, arranger keyboards are about styles, that's why it's an arranger, or...?

Hey how about not posting in ALL CAPS ... and please don't quote yourself ... that is like "forum masturbating" !!!!!!! Strike One, Strike Two ...... You know what comes next.

Quantity of new styles too me is not as imprtant as the whole mix in there...how good are they ALL and how do they utilise the new sunds?
We will not know until we get or hands on one...and some good youtube and official demos come out. Youtube demos/songs can be outstanding IF done corretly by someone who knows what they are doing.

Here is a good example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUSxxRPtsac&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
And:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR7X9fCpbyw&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

THis one shows lots of orchestral voices too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVbJLg8bXiI&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

If you listen to all his songs...I think you get a pretty good idea of what a T3 and T4 sound like.

Audio wise..no not as good as live...but pretty well done!
I would like the same on PA3...I'm probably hoping for too much.

Lee S.

Well, anyone that sees '50 new styles' and DOESN'T think that many of the previous ROM styles are re-worked to leverage the new sounds and capabilities hasn't been around arrangers for very long..!

BUT.... to be fair, I have never heard a re-worked style, especially one that one is intimately familiar with the previous incarnation of it, sound TRULY significantly better than the original. Yes, there's a nice improvement, but it often seems like the arranger manufacturers use these updated styles as a reason NOT to make new ones. Often little more than changing sounds of the old style is done, and Lord knows, we can do that ourselves pretty easy!

What I'd like is a completely NEW ROM set of styles, backwards compatibility with the old ones, and for those too lazy to edit the old styles themselves, an option to BUY the previous set, already tweaked for the new arranger.

But, sadly, you think 50 NEW styles, what are the odds that possibly 50% or more of those are in genre's you have no use for? So, you got 25 NEW styles you can use. Humbug! I payed $3500 for 25 new styles??!

Not good enough. Not good enough by FAR, IMO....

(and before this breaks down into a 'mine is bigger than yours', be honest... Just how many TOTALLY new styles did the T4 introduce - not re-works - or the Audya, or any new arranger?)

As crippled as arrangers are, compared to their WS siblings, what you are primarily paying for is CONTENT. And you aren't honestly getting a lot for it, I fear.

I've spent quite a bit of time playing Tyros 4, and they did indeed include quite a few new styles. Most of them are in categories I don't use much though. I was expecting a lot out of the new drum kit, but on many of the country styles, I had to look in the mixer to see what kit was being used. Sure enough it was the new Live one, but my ears had trouble hearing the difference.
Yes there are many thousands of Yamaha styles floating around, but they aren't going to sound any better on a new keyboard unless you take the time to edit each one.
Even with the Audya, I find about half of the styles I use are carried over from the SD series. At least Ketron went to the trouble to tweak them for the Audya though.
I'm glad we have so many good choices, even though none of them will ever be perfect.
DonM

exactly. In a few years, all these 'closed architecture' keyboards will be a thing of the past.
And yes, it's nuts spending £ 3500 on an instrument , reselling it after 3 years and losing £ 1500 on it, plus forking out another £ 1000.

As fast as computer 'architectures' change, anyone thinks an 'open' system future-proofs them is a bit optimistic.

Let's just take the expansion slots as an example. In the last ten years, there have been FOUR new, totally incompatible slots for computers, from PCI through to PCI-e (or whatever is newest, I can't keep track of them all!). There have been three changes to USB. There have been innumerable chipset changes, and some significant differences between different CPU architectures.

These are where your soundcards go, where your storage peripherals and external controllers come into the system, where the raw computation of the entire machine resides. Not exactly 'future-proof' by any means...

Secondly, you have to take into consideration the enormous COST of developing the sounds, styles (especially the styles) and the OS of any of these arranger products. If the development costs are ONLY paid for by minor upgrade fees, that's a DRASTIC loss of revenue compared to what a manufacturer gets by selling you an entire NEW keyboard to go along with those styles and sounds and features. Now, you might THINK the closed arranger manufacturers are greedy bastards who are just out to rape you, but that money is NEEDED... I mean, just take a look at just how POOR all the included content is with open arrangers, how unintegrated and piecemeal it is, how it compares very poorly to a closed one. All that extra money that buying the closed arranger is going towards some VERY important 'software' features. Ones that, without that higher cost, are being short-changed on the open arranger.

There's both sides to this coin, all is NOT nirvana in open-land, and wishing that the same amount of work be done for you for a tiny fraction of the price is dreaming in the extreme.

Don,

Carol told me the third thing to go was the hearing. She said the second thing to go was the mind, and I don't remember what the first thing was.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be global tuning software within any keyboard's OS for just the drum kits--at least none that I know of. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Fortunately, registrations can do some wonderful things, and there's lots of ways to utilize and access them.

Cheers,

Gary

So...how many styles do you need?
Well, I bet most of us use maybe 50 styles total?
What's important is whether the ones you like/need are there.

Same goes for sounds...give me 100 top notch sounds that don't have damm problems with them...don't need 1,000 sounds.
How many sounds are in a full orchestra + an average band...
Add different pianos, E-pinos, some ethnic stuff...100 wound be enough if all of them were top notch and useable for lots of songs.

To me quality is more important than quantity.
Lee S.

Hi Diki
Hate to disillusion you, but PCI cards came out about the middle 90s, and they are still available on the very latest motherboards. (Including those that use the very latest CPU from Intel)
CPU, Chipsets & Ram have no relevance, as when you upgrade to a new one, (So that you don’t have to change the whole keyboard to get uprated performance) you just load the drivers in for it, and away you go again.
USB is backward compatible, so again no problems with that either.
In fact pretty much everything you say about computers above is totally incorrect.
TIP: Get at least a basic understanding of a subject before commenting on it, that way there is less chance of inadvertently giving the wrong information.

As to poor content in Open Arrangers then I suggest you look at the amount of players that have bought Wersi OAS instruments over other manufactures, (Professionals and Home users) as they give them the performance and sounds they are looking for. (Not everybody wants the same sounds/styles/setup as you)

Bill

If I could pick 'em, and I guess I can actually, I could be happy with 100 styles and about 100 sounds.
A few guitars, both electric and acoustic, a great piano or two, a few saxophones, organs, brass, horns, harmonica, Cajun accordion, Fiddle, strings, banjo, oohs and aahs. I could cover those with 50 slots easily. A few sound effects for fun would be nice. I don't use many synth sounds; some people could use 50 of those alone I'm sure.
Look at your average five or six piece bands, rock, country, blues, and I need all the instruments they play.
But of course I WANT MORE!
DonM

Well, specs don't tell the story. If specs made a damn bit of difference, we would ALL be playing MS's. Even YOU aren't. I guess the sound, and how well it works counts for SOMETHING?!

128 voices is more than enough. An entire orchestra doesn't have that many players in it!

More is always better, but there comes a time when enough is OK... 128 did it, I believe. What I believe I'm seeing here is what I call 'creeping specitis'... Well if 128 is good, then 256 MUST be better, and if something HAS 256, then 128 is no longer good enough. If it works fine with USB1, then USB2 comes out, it no longer works fine. If you have never filled up 256MB of RAM in your life, but something comes out with a GB, then 256MB is no longer good enough...

Until you actually ARE bumping solidly into the spec limits of your current equipment, then anything that comes out with more isn't really of any use. It's kind of like, if you rarely drive over 100mph, and your current car's top speed is 150mph, why is a car that does 200mph needed by you?

So what if the MS has more voices... are its styles and sounds better set up than a T4? Few would say so. So, what good are those specs now?

Let's look at bit depth. Every CD you have ever bought has been 16 bit. You probably listen to most of your music through crappy speakers playing MP3's, if the truth be told. But all of a sudden, 16 bit samples aren't good enough? Give me a break! Lousy 24 bit samples don't sound anywhere near as good as carefully crafted 16 bit ones. It is the sample itself, not its bit depth, that makes up 99.9% of a sound's quality.

Concentrate a little less on NUMBERS, and start to listen to the MUSIC those numbers make, and you'll quickly find that numbers are a game for mathematicians, not musicians...

Bill, have you got one of the older Wersi's that CAN'T be upgraded to the latest OAS? Tell THEM that they are future-proofed, why don't you.

And, you missed the point so completely about the hardware aspect, I am going to try again. It's not that THESE older standards are available on the current set of MOBO's. It's that NEXT YEAR, something will probably come out that blows it all away. So much for 'future-proofed'. And modern VSTi's leverage the extra power modern chipsets have. Try running Omnisphere on a ten year old computer. Try running the Arturia stuff on even a five year old computer. Try running next year's hot VSTi on last year's computer.

You change out all the innards, how is this different from simply buying a new arranger? Even if you retain compatibility with the new hardware and the old OS and software, you have still spent quite a bit to be 'future-proofed'. I can sell an older arranger for not THAT much less than the new one costs. Both seem viable options, and may not be THAT different in price to do, if you need a total changeout.

And, I tell you what... THIS time around, perhaps you could TRY to remain civil to me when you disagree? Or should we all go back to the bad old days? I'm game if you are!