Hi:

I currently own a Tyros 3 with its FSX keyboard. It would be considered a semi-weighted balanced keyboard. It has a very nice feel. Now I am considering adding a Workstation. I've tried out the Full-sized Weighted-balanced keyboard on the Motif and the S90/70XS. The full weighted feels even nicer but since I only audition them in the store I was wondering if I might find them fatiguing to play over the long haul. So putting aside the addition of the extra keys and octaves what are the pluses and minuses of playing weighted balanced keyboards vs semi-weighted from your personal experiences.

Thanks,

joe

I cut my keyboard teeth on a Rhodes, back in the day. As synths became the rage, the actions got softer and softer that now, I hate playing real piano actions. I've been playing LH bass for 30 years on synth actions, and it just feels awkward with all that resistance of weighted keys.
I like a firm action, but I prefer organ type keys over piano style. Just me.

Key feel is important to me...I have always used the first touch of a keyboard in determining if I want to look farther into the board ..

If you are trained on a piano..piano action usually is the only comfortable keybed for you..
If you were not trained on piano, most likely ..any feel will work for you, but will find piano action, tiresome for a while..

The quality and resistance of the keybed is most important to me..it interacts with the sound I hear directly from the key response...Even my accordion days..I realized I only wanted to play a quality key bed..even to the extent ...I had custom keybeds on my accordions...I hated to play cheap action accordions..still today..

Today, I am more enclined to pass over an instrument ..just because of the keys...the perfect example ..the undersize, light action of the PSR line..

I prefer the semi weighted action..full size, and quality keys..my current keyboards are just that...the MediaStation (Fatar 76 keybed), Roland G70 and A-33..Even my old accordion (has that quality keybed).....coming in last is my Korg PA800 (although better than the Prelude, and considerably better than the PSR keys)..

I quess you can say ..my pet peave..is the keyfeel...My friends will tell you..when I check out a "new" keyboard..before it is even powered on..I check the under side of the keys first...then the action second..before it is powered on....If the first and second don't work for me..I walk away..and let someone else play...

Are you considering adding the WS for regular gigging, or for at home and in the studio?

There ARE advantages to a fully weighted action, mostly to do with dynamics control, that mostly benefit piano-like patches, and if you were trained as a pianist, can help reconnect you with long familiar technique. But as a general controller for MOST patches, and especially organ type patches and fast synth stuff, it can work a bit against you, depending on how strong your technique is.

If you are thinking of adding it to the T3 as a stage rig, you then have to deal with the issue of two completely different 'touches' right next to each other, and will probably find that the wooden action tends to be best, once again, just doing piano/Rhodes patches. Fran is right in that, if you are doing a whole bunch of LH bass, you have the issue of hand fatigue, as keeping a strong but even touch is essential to bass patches (unless you basically turn off the velocity response), and the wooden action will exacerbate that.

And, to be fair, as good as the T3 is, I am kind of wondering just exactly WHAT you need the wood WS on a gig for? OTOH, if your goal is to have something like this at home for studio, composing, just general mucking around, then yes, you can't have TOO many different action keyboards, as each sound has one particular touch that it works best with, and a WS offers you sounds and techniques that an arranger doesn't.

But, especially in a forum that glorifies lack of weight sometimes over even SOUND, I think you are a pretty brave chap even suggesting this! Even the lightest of the wooden action WS's makes my G70 feel like a PSR!

If you are looking to add a second keyboard for your live gig, unless you ARE primarily a pianist, and your hands are in good condition and you play at least an hour or so a day on a real piano, I'd suggest a good 76 plastic, like the MoXF7, or maybe wait for the Kronos, or an M3 76, or just a good 76 controller and a BK-7m (to add the Roland 'flava').

Hope this helps.

Hi Joe,

First of all, in my opinion, key feel and response are very personal and subjective.

I agree with you totally that the Yamaha FSX has a "very nice feel"...in my opinion, it is the best semi-weighted action available today, on any arranger or workstation, and although I really liked the
light and nicely balanced feel of the mid-range Yamaha PSR line, after spending some quality time on the Tyros4, I have changed my mind, and I now prefer the semi-weighted FSX.

For me, weighted, hammer action keys are only really necessary if I am playing solo piano, and, let me add, I want 88 of them...not 76, although, I suppose I could work around the latter if necessary. Playing sounds other than piano is not a problem, for me, as working with weighted action builds up hand/finger strength and speed.

Since you are considering "adding" a workstation, it might be in your favor to go with 76/88 weighted, as you already have a great feeling 61 note semi-weighted instrument, and with MIDI you can enjoy the benefits of both actions.

Regarding finding the weighted action " fatiguing to play over the long haul", it would really depend on how much time you spent on the instrument. For occasional use, you might find it a bit wearing, but if it's more your primary instrument, your hands and fingers will become used to it.

Nothing beats a weighted action for piano work, in my opinion and experience, but, if you're not a piano player who now plays synths and arranger/workstations, but more of a general "keyboard" player, semi-weighted might be the best overall choice.

Ian

Thanks for the input.

I am not trained as a piano player. My first instrument was Tenor Sax and I only converted to keyboard three years ago. I consider myself a keyboard player and not a pianist. Also I don't gig, at least not at the present, but rather I play for my own enjoyment and to compose and record my own work. So my interest in a WS is to add additional sounds and capabilities for creative purposes.

Yes, Diki, I can see where the weighted key bed would have advantages primarily for key related voices, so maybe a semi-weighted might be best.

Of course my other alternative, since I really like the T3 FSX Keyboard, is to just add a Motif Rack and use the T3 as a Master Keyboard when I want to play Motif sounds.

The T3 makes a poor master controller, unfortunately... Most arrangers are built as 'one keyboard' solutions for players. Probably the Korg's are the best in this regard.

And, in all fairness, as you already HAVE a Yamaha, I would recommend something ELSE as a second keyboard. There is too much in common between Yamaha products (or those of any other manufacturer), an overall sort of 'sound' that adding another one would not give you the range of sounds that adding something by a different manufacturer gives you.

In all fairness, although Ian loves it NOW (mind you, he didn't while he had the PSR... Ian always thinks whatever he currently has is the best possible thing!), but I don't think the FSX keybed of the Yamaha's is noticeably better or worse than any other TOTL WS's keybed. It's VERY similar to Korg keybeds, Roland keybeds (on the Fantom line), Lionstracs keybeds (from what Fran says), and many others. Even my old Triton feels VERY similar.

The only plastic that is radically different is my G70, which is a little heavier and smoother, with more full size keys.

If you can wait long enough, and save up just a bit more money than a MoXF, I'd wait until the Kronos drops. That's going to be either 61 plastic, or 76 and 88 wood (and far less than an arranger costs) and seems to up the bar in a BIG way over anything else currently out. I think, unless your needs are immediate, that waiting until we get a chance to see this in action might be the best move.

Yes, we are the same in that regard!

Ian

Great idea, Joe...if all you want is to play Motif sounds from the T3's keyboard.

You can even record the Motif Rack's sounds in the Tyros3's audio recorder.

Since you are primarily a "keyboard" player rather than a pianist, the Yamaha FSX semi-weighted action should work just fine....in my opinion, you'd hard pressed to find anything with a better touch/response/feel.

Ian

Speaking of weighted actions and piano playing....I thought this was pretty darn cool.

Diki:

I am not in a hurry and will wait to see what the Kronos is like. However it will most likely be out my price range. I have spent a lot of time with the Motif line. playing them in a variety of stores, and I find the sounds as well as quality of sounds significantly different than the Tyros with possibly some of the Synth sounds which are on both. The overall sound environment of the Motif line just sounds different to me than T3.

I know that Tyros has a rather basic MIDI capability but all I would want to do is play the T3 sounds OR play the just the Motif sounds and not both together. From what I've learned this is doable and easy to do although I still have questions about just how to do it. Things like how to easily switch between both modes (T3 sounds v.s. Motif sounds).

Boy would of loved to jam in with a B3 on that one

Quite the reverse, Ian. Certain ASPECTS of what I currently play are the best available at the moment, but nobody sane would try and intimate that the old G70 is the 'best possible thing'.

As I said, there are several other manufacturer actions out at the moment which don't, IMHO, feel any significantly different to the FSX. The big thing about the FSX is, it was such a HUGE improvement on previous Yamaha keybeds, a great deal of fuss was, and still is, being made of it. But, the truth is closer to being that all they did was play catch-up to Korg and Roland. At the price point it comes in at, it is VERY hard to justify saying the FSX is any BETTER than say an M3 or a Fantom action (or a PA3X action or an E80 action). It's a nice, light synth action. Like many others.

But ask anyone who has moved on from a G70, and you'll usually find the action one of the things they miss the most. Might even be the ONLY thing they miss!

It's actually not the feel, but more accurately, the response.

The FSX was developed especially for SA and SA2 voices, and in that regard, it is different from the other manufacturer's actions.

Is it better?

In my opinion, it is...I've played the G-70, and the action was very nice, but, at the time I had a Tyros2 here as well, and, whaddya know...I liked the Tyros2's action better...mainly because of how the sounds responded to the action, but, also it felt better as a semi-weighted action overall.

I keep saying that it is a personal thing...and it is a personal thing.

AND...what you play is the best instrument suited for your needs...that's the point I was making...we are the same in that regard.

Certainly, neither the G-70 or Tyros4 are "the best possible thing" (although the latter is pretty close ) but they easily fill the requirements needed for our purposes....I know the T4 does it for me.

Ian


If the Tyros3 hasd sounded "sweeter", I would have considered it...but, it took the Tyros4 to get that sound I liked, so it gets the nod.

Actually Diki apart from the rounded keys on the G70, the PA2x IS significantly better in my view. It was a huge improvement on the PA1. It is also a heavier action than the G70 as well. The "weight" of the G70 was more akin to an FSX bed, but with the longer keys and the slightly convex top, was nicer to play.

Strange though, because I thought I had always read comments from you that there were never any PA series (76 note versions) down your way for you to do a "hands-on" demo being of course the reasons why you said you would never look at buying one??? I am just a bit confused here about how you can make the comparisons, but maybe I have misunderstood all your posts on this??

I assume you HAVE played a Motif XS or XF (the only Mo lines to have the FSX keybed)

Dennis

Just to mention, Dennis, many Motif players find the response of the FSX keyboard different to what it is on the Tyros3/4...especially concerning Super Articulated/Expanded Articulation voices.

Some prefer one over the other.

Ian

Interesting to read that Ian, but very understandable...it REALLY is a very subjective area of keyboards isn't it?

Actually, now that I think back on posts I have read at Motifator, I remember quite a few along the same lines as yours there.



Dennis

I just read through the posts and I thought this might be usefull to you.

1) Piano Keyboard action:

These are flat fronted and have a lip on the front edge. They are available in non weighted, weighted, hammer and balanced hammer. They are normally plastic but some manufacturers use wooden keys

1a) non wighted = plastic keys, with a return spring at the rear. They look fine, are light but are not realy suitable for the professional unless overall instrument weight is of great importance.

1b) weighted = the same as above but with metal glued to the underside of the key. These make decent master keyboards but are still considered to be a cheep version of a Hammer Action (see below)

1c) Hammer Action. The keys have a moving hammer that strikes..well not much realy (except Kawai who use the hammers to strike the contacts...neat). The return spring can be either under the key or at the rear. The good thing is they feel like an acoustic piano. Some key frames are heavy (Old Yamha's for example)

1d) Balanced Hammer Action = The size (hence weight) of hammers vary across the keyboard to emulate closer the feel of an acoustic Piano

note: Piano keys are not suitable for Hammond type players, they are far too slow and heavy to the touch, the lip on the edge means you cannot run up the keys easily and the contact point is way too low.

2) General keyboards

Tyros, PA2x, Audya have standard keys based on the spinet organ keyboards originally designed by Hammond for the M100 series. The main difference is the hinge point is much further back on a Hammond (hence the super slick action)

The big choice here is weighted or non weighted. weighted keys are identical to non weighted except the weighted keys have a piece of metal glued to the underside of the key. This makes the keys feel more solid to the touch. Handy for the odd Piano piece, but generally just feel more porfessional than a non weighted action. (Hammond are an exception though and do not need weights)

3) Waterfall Keys = As with almost all electronic keyboard inventions, this started with Hammond and was used in almost all console organs (A, B, C, D, E, RT and so on), the M3 and early chord organs. They keys are longer than the visable length, have a flat front similar to a Piano key but without the lip. They should be fast and have a high contact point. The key 'weight' (ammount of effort required to press the key) is vital.




Almost all manufacturers use third party keyframes. It makes me laugh when people tell me they prefer the feel of one particular keyboard over another..when I know they both use identical keyboards made by Fatar in Italy.

Great post TWD!! Great information, well presented.
The only thing I differ with is, afaik, Fatar do not use weights under their "weighted" synth actions.
Korg do and the G70.
The Fatar action used on the Lionstracs 76 keybed is the spring version. ie no weights under the keys.

Dennis

Played a PA2X in Nashville, Dennis. Not into making stuff up just to sound good...

I'd be willing to bet that key for key, G70 is probably the heaviest. There's a difference between mass and sprung weight, IMO. The mass of the key gives a different feel to the sprung resistance THROUGH the strike. It's what makes piano actions feel different to synths. Springs give synths their primary 'feel' whereas mass does for a piano. IMO, the G70 falls somewhere in between.

Got a K2500, same kind of effect Heavier keys, different spring rate. Got a Triton next to that. VERY similar keybed to T4 (Yamaha FS rather than FSX action). I'll be playing a T4 finally, tomorrow morning (but have already extensively played the MoXS, with an FSX) and I'll make a point of comparing the difference. But it's pretty subtle...

To Ian, I'm afraid that, if you tend to confuse action, and sound and sound response, best thing is to try the action into another keyboard. My rig at home is set up so any keyboard can trigger any OTHER keyboard. That way, I can pick and choose what I want to play on, and 'feel' isn't influenced by sound.

Playing as much straight piano as I do, BTW, note LENGTH is quite important. I often have a problem going from piano to synths whacking the black keys inadvertently. Maybe if I were primarily a Hammond player, I wouldn't feel that, but short keys give me fits, except strangely, the Hammond's. Maybe it is because they are SO different, and I simply play differently?!

Good post TWD...I believe Yamaha is one of the few manufacturers making their own keyboards.

Korg, as far as I know, used to use Yamaha actions, but have recently changed over to Fatar.

Roland, apparently, has done the same (changed to Fatar) with much of their new line...not sure when it started, or with what models.

Early Fatar weren't my favorite actions, but they have really made them much, much better...I believe, now, I'm not totally sure where I heard this, but some of the very early Roland E-series (made in Italy) were using either Fatar or SIEL keybeds...Roland took over the SIEL (remember their synthesizers?) plant in Italy to use in making E-series arrangers in the late 80's.

I believe the Roland KR-series is/was made in Japan, so may have used different keybeds...probably Roland.

It's probably less expensive for companies, especially the smaller ones, to buy keybeds from third-party suppliers/manufacturers.

Ian

PS...I love the feel of the Hammond B-3's keys...I play one fairly often, and owned one for quite sometime...also had an M-3 as well.

BTW, I think the FSX is supposed to be IDENTICAL in T4 and MoXF/S. The difference is going to be how differently the SA voices are PROGRAMMED from Tyros to Motif. And, once again, exposes how differences in SOUND tend to influence how people feel about FEEL...

They really are two different things, but can easily be confused by the unwary.

Actually, I thought it was you who was being confused, hence my explanation.

I use MIDI quite a bit with the Tyros series and PSR, so I'm very comfortable with both terms regarding action feel vs action response.

Ian

So why the confusion with the FSX action and the T3's less than 'sweet' sound?

There are innumerable posts by you espousing the PSR action over the Tyros one while you had the S910. Total about face now. One would have thought, if what you say is true, you would have realized this...

Keybeds are virtually identical...response to SA/SA2 voices is different, and some prefer the way it is set up on the Tyros2/3/4 to the Motif.

Yes, "response" (much different than "feel") can be altered on the Motif, but, the Tyros2/3/4 get it right, right out of the box....in my opinion.

There was some controversy over this at the Motif forums.

Tyros4 does it better than Tyros2 or T3 (in my opinion)...I'm very glad I waited for the former.

Ian

Yes, I find it surprising (and sad) that Yamaha can't get consistency between the SA and Mega-voice voices between the arranger lines and Motif. This goes back to the very first Mega voices and SA voices. For some insane reason, Yamaha's left hand ignores what the right is doing (or copies it badly).

What are you confused about now, Diki?

I loved the PSR-S910 action...still do...the SA voices responded very well indeed...it had an overall sweeter sound than the Tyros3, but, for me the combination of the Tyros4's sweeter sound, and the way the voices respond (response...get it) to the FSX action (in the T4) is perfect, in my opinion.

I hope this helps clear things up for you...it's the best I can do.

Ian

PS...Hopefully you'll have a Tyros3 to compare the T4 with...I was lucky, and had them both here...still, in any case, the difference would have been quite obvious to me.

What is not surprising, is how well both divisions are doing with their respective products.

Obviously, it's working regardless of any inconsistencies, real or imagined.

Some companies have had to stop making arrangers because of internal inconsistencies...

Ian

m8, I NEVER make stuff up to sound good, not like others

I have no need to nor desire to..I am very comfortable in my skin, and have no inner compunction to prove myself to others, nor seek validation. Again, not like others I could mention

Fact is I still had the G70 (my second one btw) when the PA2x (also my second one) arrived so I had them set up side by side on two stands.

PA2x is definitely heavier touch. The Roland felt nicer to play though, especially with the slightly curved keys.

I am not actually relying on some long distant memory of a brief tinkle here and there

Dennis

Dennis, likewise, I have the MediaStation and the G70 side by side...the action on the MS Fatar keybed is great, but the ease of playing the slightly curved keys on the G70..gives the playability edge to the G70..

BTW: I believe the keybed on my MS is the same keybed used on the Korg PA2x..

No, sorry Fran, it is a different keybed
It is not the TP8/SK

Dennis

Dennis my MS was an older model keybed...than your model..Are you sure they are not the same? Also is the PA1x different than the PA2x?...I am judging the PA1x keybed to my MS..

The PA1x is a totally different keybed again. There were rumours that the PA1 used the TP8, but I could never get a firm word from Korg Italy.

Korg introduced the new one with the PA2 series.

The action of the PA1x is, I agree, very similar to the MS76, and could not be compared to the G70, with the G70 being streets ahead.

afaik Fran, we actually had the same model MS keyboard ...I just had later motherboard, sound and graphics cards

Dennis

sure was!!

Dennis

What?! Another forum with controversy?

Say it ain't so.

Look Dennis, you can't keep moving the bar. First it was 'have you EVER played a PA2X?'



but when this gets answered, now it's 'You can't have possibly played it enough to make a comparison." Essentially, you are saying that my opinion (and this is all it is) has no value. No doubt you have something in reserve for if I've played it a bit more?

One thing I DO know... I've replaced keys in both G70 (actually G800, but same action) and Triton (supposedly the same action as PA2X) and the Triton keys are lighter. It the SPRING that gives them the resistance. Look, it's a subjective thing. I've played both. I own both Korg and Roland (and Yamaha and Kurzweil) actions. Please don't get upset. I haven't cast into doubt YOUR right to make a choice. I simply responded to you casting doubt on MINE... I have played all the main actions currently available.

Just let me know for how LONG we are supposed to have played them before we can come here with an opinion, OK?

Me upset, nah I never get upset, I just post what I think.

Unfortunately you took it the wrong way, and after I re-read it just now, it was written the wrong way too.

I am not saying you have not played it enough. I am saying that we DO forget exactly how close these things are with the passage of time. I know I do.

Triton is nothing like the PA2x keys..they are narrower and a bit shorter. And the action is different. The Triton keybed has a very similar structure to the M50, well the cheaper Tritons anyway. A plastic hinge at the rear and a quite light (imo) spring.

I did have a pic of it somewhere, when I was thinking about getting an M50 to run Karma on it.

I too have replaced keys in keyboards, and refurbished a few as well, did a Pa1x just last year, so you are not Robinson Crusoe there.

And I did not essentially say anything. It was posed as a question in the first place, and you taking it as a accusation that your opinion is value-less, is a problem all of your own making.

But to re-iterate, it was written a bit harshly, and that was not the intent.

I was highlighting that I had them side by side at the same time, not months or years apart. That's it.

If it wasn't for the stupid 144 only UPG selection by Roland, I would probably still have it, and not the PA2..

Dennis

No problem, Dennis...

Just like you, I can't divine INTENT. All I have to go on is what's printed. Sorry we got hooked up wrong. But the question was ASKED, implying that you at least considered the possibility I might comment without knowledge. But, as you said, not what you intended. OK, then.

BTW, I have an original Triton, with the Yamaha FS keybed that was used in many products from the DX7 onwards. Not one of the cheaper models like the LE's (yep, they are spongy and nasty!). In the case of the PA2X, no, they weren't side by side. But I played the PA2 in a store in the afternoon, then my G70 on a gig that evening. Close enough, IMO. Certainly NOT months or years apart. I would put that in as a caveat if it were the case.

Dennis, I try to be VERY objective with my subjective opinions! I realize just how many factors can change one's opinion about just about anything. We may not always agree on those subjective opinions, but I can assure you, I don't fail to take as many factors into account as I can.

Cool..?

Yeah m8, no problems at all...there was no malicious intent so sorry about that It should have been written totally different...
I got the appropriate and deserved initial response.

Anyhoo, ditto to your last sentence...I, like you, would be the first to point out my instruments failings just as quickly and ruthlessly as highlighting its good features but always with objectivity as the key link.

Dennis

And I think we have talked enough about keybeds today