Diki:

I am not in a hurry and will wait to see what the Kronos is like. However it will most likely be out my price range. I have spent a lot of time with the Motif line. playing them in a variety of stores, and I find the sounds as well as quality of sounds significantly different than the Tyros with possibly some of the Synth sounds which are on both. The overall sound environment of the Motif line just sounds different to me than T3.

I know that Tyros has a rather basic MIDI capability but all I would want to do is play the T3 sounds OR play the just the Motif sounds and not both together. From what I've learned this is doable and easy to do although I still have questions about just how to do it. Things like how to easily switch between both modes (T3 sounds v.s. Motif sounds).

Boy would of loved to jam in with a B3 on that one

Quite the reverse, Ian. Certain ASPECTS of what I currently play are the best available at the moment, but nobody sane would try and intimate that the old G70 is the 'best possible thing'.

As I said, there are several other manufacturer actions out at the moment which don't, IMHO, feel any significantly different to the FSX. The big thing about the FSX is, it was such a HUGE improvement on previous Yamaha keybeds, a great deal of fuss was, and still is, being made of it. But, the truth is closer to being that all they did was play catch-up to Korg and Roland. At the price point it comes in at, it is VERY hard to justify saying the FSX is any BETTER than say an M3 or a Fantom action (or a PA3X action or an E80 action). It's a nice, light synth action. Like many others.

But ask anyone who has moved on from a G70, and you'll usually find the action one of the things they miss the most. Might even be the ONLY thing they miss!

It's actually not the feel, but more accurately, the response.

The FSX was developed especially for SA and SA2 voices, and in that regard, it is different from the other manufacturer's actions.

Is it better?

In my opinion, it is...I've played the G-70, and the action was very nice, but, at the time I had a Tyros2 here as well, and, whaddya know...I liked the Tyros2's action better...mainly because of how the sounds responded to the action, but, also it felt better as a semi-weighted action overall.

I keep saying that it is a personal thing...and it is a personal thing.

AND...what you play is the best instrument suited for your needs...that's the point I was making...we are the same in that regard.

Certainly, neither the G-70 or Tyros4 are "the best possible thing" (although the latter is pretty close ) but they easily fill the requirements needed for our purposes....I know the T4 does it for me.

Ian


If the Tyros3 hasd sounded "sweeter", I would have considered it...but, it took the Tyros4 to get that sound I liked, so it gets the nod.

Actually Diki apart from the rounded keys on the G70, the PA2x IS significantly better in my view. It was a huge improvement on the PA1. It is also a heavier action than the G70 as well. The "weight" of the G70 was more akin to an FSX bed, but with the longer keys and the slightly convex top, was nicer to play.

Strange though, because I thought I had always read comments from you that there were never any PA series (76 note versions) down your way for you to do a "hands-on" demo being of course the reasons why you said you would never look at buying one??? I am just a bit confused here about how you can make the comparisons, but maybe I have misunderstood all your posts on this??

I assume you HAVE played a Motif XS or XF (the only Mo lines to have the FSX keybed)

Dennis

Just to mention, Dennis, many Motif players find the response of the FSX keyboard different to what it is on the Tyros3/4...especially concerning Super Articulated/Expanded Articulation voices.

Some prefer one over the other.

Ian

Interesting to read that Ian, but very understandable...it REALLY is a very subjective area of keyboards isn't it?

Actually, now that I think back on posts I have read at Motifator, I remember quite a few along the same lines as yours there.



Dennis

I just read through the posts and I thought this might be usefull to you.

1) Piano Keyboard action:

These are flat fronted and have a lip on the front edge. They are available in non weighted, weighted, hammer and balanced hammer. They are normally plastic but some manufacturers use wooden keys

1a) non wighted = plastic keys, with a return spring at the rear. They look fine, are light but are not realy suitable for the professional unless overall instrument weight is of great importance.

1b) weighted = the same as above but with metal glued to the underside of the key. These make decent master keyboards but are still considered to be a cheep version of a Hammer Action (see below)

1c) Hammer Action. The keys have a moving hammer that strikes..well not much realy (except Kawai who use the hammers to strike the contacts...neat). The return spring can be either under the key or at the rear. The good thing is they feel like an acoustic piano. Some key frames are heavy (Old Yamha's for example)

1d) Balanced Hammer Action = The size (hence weight) of hammers vary across the keyboard to emulate closer the feel of an acoustic Piano

note: Piano keys are not suitable for Hammond type players, they are far too slow and heavy to the touch, the lip on the edge means you cannot run up the keys easily and the contact point is way too low.

2) General keyboards

Tyros, PA2x, Audya have standard keys based on the spinet organ keyboards originally designed by Hammond for the M100 series. The main difference is the hinge point is much further back on a Hammond (hence the super slick action)

The big choice here is weighted or non weighted. weighted keys are identical to non weighted except the weighted keys have a piece of metal glued to the underside of the key. This makes the keys feel more solid to the touch. Handy for the odd Piano piece, but generally just feel more porfessional than a non weighted action. (Hammond are an exception though and do not need weights)

3) Waterfall Keys = As with almost all electronic keyboard inventions, this started with Hammond and was used in almost all console organs (A, B, C, D, E, RT and so on), the M3 and early chord organs. They keys are longer than the visable length, have a flat front similar to a Piano key but without the lip. They should be fast and have a high contact point. The key 'weight' (ammount of effort required to press the key) is vital.




Almost all manufacturers use third party keyframes. It makes me laugh when people tell me they prefer the feel of one particular keyboard over another..when I know they both use identical keyboards made by Fatar in Italy.

Great post TWD!! Great information, well presented.
The only thing I differ with is, afaik, Fatar do not use weights under their "weighted" synth actions.
Korg do and the G70.
The Fatar action used on the Lionstracs 76 keybed is the spring version. ie no weights under the keys.

Dennis

Played a PA2X in Nashville, Dennis. Not into making stuff up just to sound good...

I'd be willing to bet that key for key, G70 is probably the heaviest. There's a difference between mass and sprung weight, IMO. The mass of the key gives a different feel to the sprung resistance THROUGH the strike. It's what makes piano actions feel different to synths. Springs give synths their primary 'feel' whereas mass does for a piano. IMO, the G70 falls somewhere in between.

Got a K2500, same kind of effect Heavier keys, different spring rate. Got a Triton next to that. VERY similar keybed to T4 (Yamaha FS rather than FSX action). I'll be playing a T4 finally, tomorrow morning (but have already extensively played the MoXS, with an FSX) and I'll make a point of comparing the difference. But it's pretty subtle...

To Ian, I'm afraid that, if you tend to confuse action, and sound and sound response, best thing is to try the action into another keyboard. My rig at home is set up so any keyboard can trigger any OTHER keyboard. That way, I can pick and choose what I want to play on, and 'feel' isn't influenced by sound.

Playing as much straight piano as I do, BTW, note LENGTH is quite important. I often have a problem going from piano to synths whacking the black keys inadvertently. Maybe if I were primarily a Hammond player, I wouldn't feel that, but short keys give me fits, except strangely, the Hammond's. Maybe it is because they are SO different, and I simply play differently?!