I do see where you're coming from Bill...I just happen not to agree with you.

Ian

TBH, The Korg series are really the ONLY arrangers that approach WS depth of editing. Little else comes close, and even there, the Korg editing and capabilities are far closer to older Triton-type editing that the latest Korg WS's like M3 and Kronos.

Right now, we have a gap that is killing the future of the arranger, IMO. On the one hand, we have the current market for arrangers, which seems to not really WANT depth of editing, more OOTB ease of use and minimal customization (the most successful arranger brand is also the least tweakable, on the whole), and, at the same time, the youth market is wholly fixated on WS's, with very deep editing possibilities, but little live ease of use or musical operation of arps and loops.

I see the only way for the arranger to survive, especially in the US market is to turn it into a MODERN music device. I'm afraid, you put a keyboard in front of a kid in his twenties with more foxtrot styles in it than hiphop, he's going to laugh his ass off! Look at the CONTENT that modern WS's have, their arps and loops. You MIGHT find a few Latin patterns, maybe a few swing things, but probably at least 90% of the content is techno, hiphop, rap, alternative, modern R&B, things like that.

Overall, there's nothing WRONG with the arranger as a musical device. But the manufacturers have relegated it to an old fogies' machine by their choice of CONTENT, and the stubborn refusal to include even a simple arpeggiator, let alone the more complex ones found in MoXF, etc..

Until that content disparity is addressed, it's going to remain a niche product in the States, and more a schlager machine in Europe. Of course, you have the problem that the people making arrangers now don't WANT to blur the line any more, because things are already working out quite nicely for them. You want a WS and an arranger, you have to buy TWO keyboards. Profit!

Only an independent has much of a chance of breaking this stalemate. I had high hopes for the MS, but it doesn't seem like Lionstracs have deep enough pockets to develop and content this up to what's actually needed, so it has returned to more of a WS paradigm, and content is very hit and miss. And, before anyone chimes in about how you are SUPPOSED to develop your own content for it, examine the absurdity of that... Yamaha, Korg, Roland, none of the major players in the WS market sell a keyboard where it is up to YOU to make the basic content. Everything successful comes OOTB with enough high quality content to keep those that are creatively challenged and technically limited still able to create high quality music. Yamaha would only sell a FRACTION of MoXF's if they came basically empty (or with poor content), they at least have figured THAT out, unlike Lionstracs.

Maybe Ketron can take a shot at it? They don't currently make a WS... Plenty of opportunity to take a stab at the market. TBH, they already HAVE an arpeggiator (though it could do though with a more elaborate one), so they are halfway there, they can do audio loop slicing and playback (but it needs a better user front end for them to put their own loops in), they have key triggered one shots (essential for hiphop and rap), they actually have most of the pieces.

But you STILL can't sell something full of bachata's and bolero's, foxtrots and waltzes to a kid! They would need to clean house COMPLETELY of all the legacy styles, and fill it to the brim with modern rhythms. This, I honestly think would sell like hotcakes. But one quickstep would queer the pitch completely.

Will we ever see it? It depends... I think the demand is there. Is there the will to make it? That is the big question, isn't it..?

You have stated the case very well Dikki and mark my words before this decade is that is exactly what we will see.

The arranger must not just have modern content to sell to kids, or the under 30/40 crowd...it must be sold at the same price as a comparable workstation/synth.

Ian

I think kids are just smart enough to see that an arranger is basically a very controllable glorified CD/MP3 player that deludes a lot of untrained, untalented people into thinking that they're musicians. There are exceptions, of course, mostly here at Synthzone . But I would guess that less than 20% of dedicated arranger players are competent 'traditional' musicians (including a handful that are actually eeking out a living as one). Just a wild guess, of course.

chas

I suppose it depends on how you view an arranger keyboard, Chas.

To me, (and perhaps to you) and the several pro players using one here on SZ, it is just another tool in the box.

For me, I have "arranger" gigs, and then "solo piano" gigs, and sometimes I just go to the studio and play what is needed for the recording.

If there are those who "look down" on the use of an arranger for professional purposes, it is usually those who are a tad narrow minded in regards to music production.

A friend (guitarist) of mine and I do song demos for a third party songwriter/vocalist, and for 90% of the recording, we use an arranger keyboard...mainly for bass and drums, and a few sweetening tracks.

We can do several songs in a session, and the client spends less, we make a very nice profit, and the people that listen to his demos are more than impressed with the quality.

That's only one use.

I'm sure we (meaning you, I and other SZ'ers) can think of many more, without having to say it's "just a very controllable glorified CD/MP3 player that deludes a lot of untrained, untalented people into thinking that they're musicians".

The late Oscar Peterson bought a 9000 Pro and a CVP-109 at one of Yamaha's seminars, and I was lucky enough to spend most of the day with him, showing him how they worked, although, Oscar, being a real gadget freak, had no trouble whatsoever in getting comfortable with both instruments...and yes, he used the accompaniments...in fact we had a great time making custom styles, some of which I believe I still have here on a floppy disk.

He did not look down on arrangers...he embraced new technology...maybe he was one of a few that did, but I'm glad it was someone of his caliber, as it made me more comfortable with them as well.

Ian

If you look at the world today, everything revolves around software; the hardware is just something to access the software.

Examples:-

Phones
Tablets
Computers
PVR
TV
Blue Ray Players/Recorders
Even some cars you can choose your dashboard layout and functions (With more on the way)
Mixers
DJ Decks
In fact pretty much everything is going that way, so I would be pretty surprised if the keyboard as we know it today will still be around by the end of the decade.
The future has been put into effect by Apple (Although contrary to what some people believe they did not invent the idea) with its iPhone/iPad principle. (You have a basic device (Keyboard in our case) and buy the Apps you want, to do what you want)

That in my opinion is the future, (And I always try to keep an eye on probable future trends) and not a dedicated keyboard for a specific task.

Bill

Ian, my statement may offend someone (if the shoe fits....) but I'll bet if you were able to fact-check it, it would be essentially accurate. As far as Oscar is concerned, that's a really poor example, as Oscar didn't need to try to fool anyone, need a 'crutch', or prove anything. As you said, he was a gadget freak, and what RICH, musically-oriented, gadget freak wouldn't be attracted to an arranger? If I were rich, I'd own every one ever made. The TRUE test; did you ever see him play a gig with one? Use one on a recording? Base an arrangement on an arranger style? Like I said, Oscar? Poor example. There is a big gap between technology and artistry. Neither is a substitute for the other. JMO.

chas

Well, Chas, I'm not going to try and make you a fan of arranger keyboards. Oscar was, for sure...he wanted them for recording, and trying out compositions.

And, I am, unabashedly, a big fan as well.

No, my friend, if you don't see their value as another tool in the tool box, I doubt very much if I could convince you.

I'm secure enough in my own playing skills that using an arranger doesn't make me feel one bit less a keyboardist/musician.

Actually, it makes me feel more progressive.

Happy playing.

Ian