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#323555 - 05/06/11 12:53 PM
Re: ROLAND make comeback
[Re: rolandfan]
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Member
Registered: 04/05/11
Posts: 121
Loc: Scotland, UK.
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I wouldn't underestimate them.... but who knows what Roland development plans are?
_________________________
Roland G-70, FP-4, BK-7m, SonicCell, KC-350 x 2, DS-5 x 2, A300-Pro, Sonar X1 PE, BR1600CD Yamaha HX-1 System 1, KA-20x2
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#323562 - 05/06/11 02:05 PM
Re: ROLAND make comeback
[Re: rolandfan]
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Member
Registered: 04/05/11
Posts: 121
Loc: Scotland, UK.
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Don't forget to remind Roland to bring back their 'chord sequencer'. HiGuys, I sent through a list of 15 improvements I'd like to see carried out on the BK-7m today, directly to Roland. I included a number of the suggestions I have seen here and on other fora (is that the correct plural of forum?) including the return of the Chord Sequencer. personally I don't need it, but I hope it makes a re-appearance if it helps you out! Here is a quote from the reply I got. John
Great stuff - much appreciate the time you have put into this and your enthusiasm for the product! Feedback like this is essential gor future R&D. The rest is a bit personal so I won't bore you with it, but it just goes to show, Roland are always listening! May I suggest again that you each contact Roland with your own suggestions. the more they hear from customers or potential customers, the more they are likely to create a certain feature. John
_________________________
Roland G-70, FP-4, BK-7m, SonicCell, KC-350 x 2, DS-5 x 2, A300-Pro, Sonar X1 PE, BR1600CD Yamaha HX-1 System 1, KA-20x2
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#323599 - 05/06/11 11:35 PM
Re: ROLAND make comeback
[Re: rolandfan]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10427
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
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Hi John (Sweentech1), In addition to bringing back the chord sequencer, another hugely important feature (at least for me) is for Roland to finally implement II- V7 I rootless jazz chord (ala Bill Evans style) auto accomp chord recognition, of which has been included on Techincs and Yamaha arrangers as long as I can remember, and added to Ketron arrangers since the SD1, and to Korg arrangers since the PA2X. Currently Roland remains the only leading manufacterer of arrangers keyboards that still has't implemented this feature yet, so all the more important for tnem to finally catch up with the rest, and get on board. LH rootless chord voicing recognition desired (in all 12 keys of course) Key of C: IIm9 - Dm9: F1 -C2 - E2 V13 - G13: F1 - B1- E2 I 6/9 - C6/9: E1- A1 - D2 Two hand jazz chord recognition: F13 - (LH: Eb1 - A1 - D2) + (RH: G2 - C3- F3) Here's a song with me playing in auto accomp mode utilizing the above rootless jazz style chords. Listen to my left live piano playing utilizing these chords and how it triggers the auto accomp drums and and correct bass lines of which supply the root of the chords, and authentic to the way the keyvoard player is expected to play (without including the chord's root notes) in trad combo jazz, playing chord extensions (9ths and 13ths) and allowing the bass player to supply the chord root tones instead. Pretty cool giving this jazz style its signature sound. I Get Along Without You Very WellIf you want more details, feel free to PM me and/or meet me on Skype to voice/video chat. ![cool cool](/forum/images/graemlins/default_dark/cool.gif) My Skype id is: scottyee
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#323601 - 05/07/11 12:34 AM
Re: ROLAND make comeback
[Re: Scottyee]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10427
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
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#323611 - 05/07/11 05:33 AM
Re: ROLAND make comeback
[Re: Scottyee]
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Member
Registered: 04/05/11
Posts: 121
Loc: Scotland, UK.
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Hi scott,
This is very interesting to me. I am at work just now so have access to a T4 and a PA2x pro. Could you please let me know what fingering mode you have on these to achieve these chords?
I am not a jazz player at all, though I enjoy the sound, so I'd like to investigate this. Being a self-taught bedroom player mostly, and having learned from easy play tutor books, I have never known how to voice out 'jazz' chords so this is very educational for me. Once I mastered the basics from books I just went off and did my own thing, and developed my own style.
At the moment I am not getting the correct bass pitches automatically (without playing the bass note at the low end of the chord.) Any further help would be appreciated.
John
_________________________
Roland G-70, FP-4, BK-7m, SonicCell, KC-350 x 2, DS-5 x 2, A300-Pro, Sonar X1 PE, BR1600CD Yamaha HX-1 System 1, KA-20x2
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#323612 - 05/07/11 06:51 AM
Re: ROLAND make comeback
[Re: rolandfan]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10427
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
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On a Tyros 4, use * A1 Fingered Mode (set split point at F#2) * Full Keyboard Mode Notes to play (with piano voice enabled) in LH: F1 - C2 - E2 : Dm7(9) F1 - B1 - E2 : G7(13) E1 - A1 - D2 : C6(9) F1 - G1 - Bb1 - D2: Gm7 E1 - Bb1 - D2: C7(9) E1 - F1 - A1 - C2: FM7 Eb1 - A1 - D2: F7(13) It's been a while since I've played a PA2X, but I got the same/similar chord recognition results playing the Pa2X in 'full keyboard' mode. Not sure if any of the PA2X's fingered modes recognized this or not. Perhaps you can check these and report back. Also, Make sure the latest current OS is installed on both keyboards. John, looking forward to the results of your findings. ![smile smile](/forum/images/graemlins/default_dark/smile.gif)
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#323615 - 05/07/11 07:13 AM
Re: ROLAND make comeback
[Re: rolandfan]
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Member
Registered: 04/05/11
Posts: 121
Loc: Scotland, UK.
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Hi Scott,
Ok I have tried both machines and compared with the BK7m. Both Tyros and PA2x behave as described in A1 Fingered mode, and for the PA in Expert mode. On the BK7m the G7(13) chord plays fine as do all 7(13) chords in intelligent mode. It is your 6(9) and 7(9) which are not recognised with the fingerings you describe, though they are perfectly achievable with additional notes. i am guessing the reason you don't want the additional notes is because you are overlaying a melodic sound on top of the style's chord? If so, thanks for pointing it out. I'll forward this to Roland, and see if anyone knows what i am on about when I try to describe the situation!
John
_________________________
Roland G-70, FP-4, BK-7m, SonicCell, KC-350 x 2, DS-5 x 2, A300-Pro, Sonar X1 PE, BR1600CD Yamaha HX-1 System 1, KA-20x2
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#323659 - 05/07/11 06:08 PM
Re: ROLAND make comeback
[Re: rolandfan]
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Member
Registered: 04/05/11
Posts: 121
Loc: Scotland, UK.
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Hi Scott,
Sorry I didn't check for replies whilst at work today, so I only just got this. I have come upstairs to my studio. Here are the results you get on the BK7m in intelligent mode with your notes:
F1 - C2 - E2 : Fmaj7 F1 - B1 - E2 : G7, 13 E1 - A1 - D2 : A sus
F1 - G1 - Bb1 - D2: Gmin7 E1 - Bb1 - D2: Bb5b E1 - F1 - A1 - C2: Fmaj7
Eb1 - A1 - D2: F7, 13
Now to get the chords you want to play correctly in Intelliget mode you play:
Dm7(9) : D1 - F1 - C2 - E2 (A1 can also be added but is not necessary) G7, 13 : F1 - B1 - E2 C6, 9 : C1 - E1 - G1 - A1 - D2
Gmin7 : F1 - G1 - Bb1 - D2 C7, 9 : C1 - E1 - G1 - Bb1 - D2 (on this occasion the V is necessary otherwise you get Bb5b, 9) Fmaj7 : E1 - F1 - A1 - C2
F7, 13 : Eb1 - A1 - D2
_________________________
Roland G-70, FP-4, BK-7m, SonicCell, KC-350 x 2, DS-5 x 2, A300-Pro, Sonar X1 PE, BR1600CD Yamaha HX-1 System 1, KA-20x2
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#323681 - 05/08/11 07:54 AM
Re: ROLAND make comeback
[Re: rolandfan]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10427
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
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John, many thanks for taking the time to post the Bk7m's chord recognition for my above chord voicings. I'm disappointed that after all these years ( over ten since I've pushed for this) that Roland still hasn't come on board with it yet because II -V7 - I is the most common chord progression seen in all jazz standards, often appearin many times throughout a song ( ie Satin Doll), so the ability to play this progression with the minimum of jumping around the keyboard (known as smooth voice leading) is essential, esp on slower tunes and in a typical small jazz combo setting where the live keyboard player typically avoids playing the chord's root note when comping, leaving that to the bass player, or on an arranger, the auto-accomp bass part. Only playing in this manner on an arranger keyboard will you be able to emulate and produce the unique open piano comping sound of trio jazz like Diana Krall, Jamie Cullum, and Peter Cincotti. John, I'm hoping the power of your music store influence might help convince Roland to finally add or augment the above rootless jazz chords to their chord recognition table. Please talk to your Roland contacts and let me know what they say. The BK7m looks like it would be a great unit for me otherwise. Thanks. ![cool cool](/forum/images/graemlins/default_dark/cool.gif)
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#323689 - 05/08/11 11:03 AM
Re: ROLAND make comeback
[Re: rolandfan]
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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Strange that Roland hasn't updated it's accompaniment engine to include rootless voicings. They aren't just used in Jazz, but in a lot of pop, and R&B, and Gospel tunes as well.
Yes, Roland has ON BASS capability, but it is not the same thing.
Anyone who plays Hammond B-3 will be very familiar with rootless chord voicings allowing for smooth voice leading, and it is an integral part of piano accompaniment, and not just a luxury on an arranger keyboard anymore, but a necessity.
I hope Roland see their way clear to implement it on their next new arranger.
Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#323694 - 05/08/11 11:36 AM
Re: ROLAND make comeback
[Re: ianmcnll]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10427
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
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They aren't just used in Jazz, but in a lot of pop, and R&B, and Gospel tunes as well. Yes, Roland has ON BASS capability, but it is not the same thing. Hi Ian, you're absolutely right on 'both' points. I of course play root chords including their inversions as well, but rootless voiced chords simply adds more to the musical palette to pick and choose from and keep the music sounding "fresh & interesting", especially when playing in full keyboard pianist mode or when the LH part is assigned to piano, organ, or EP, and of course with the LH keyboard part activated & heard. Speaking of, go back & listen to Jimmy Smith and Tony Monaco ![cool cool](/forum/images/graemlins/default_dark/cool.gif) They both include plenty of rootless chords & chord progressions when they play.
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