Went to our local club last night to have a listen to Daniel Watt on his new setup http://www.danielwatt.com/page89/page89.html and was surprised to find that it has been updated even further, with the 9000 pro replaced with a PA3x and the PA2x now used as the lower keyboard.

The performance was cracking, as while some of the old standard tunes were included, they were arranged as if played by a modern band, rather than being totally nostalgic and which I liked a lot.

Back to the keyboards, this is the first time I have heard the PA3x live and what a sound it produces, it also easily answered the question of which was the better of the 2, the T4 or PA3x, (As I have now heard both live) and the answer is both. (See below)

The T4 has good musicians (Including some outstanding ones) that have been playing together for years, and really sound top notch, whereas the Korg has a fantastic amount of outstanding musicians (Only a few ordinary souls) but don’t gel well together and need a lot more practice together to get a cohesive sound.

Depending on what you want from an instrument will determine which is best for you, but both are top notch and just as good as each other.

PA2x Pa3x
This is also easy to answer, in that like all keyboards while the basic sound engine is getting on a bit, it has been refined over the years, and so it goes like this.

PA1x: Sounds like you are hearing the musicians from a distance and playing behind a curtain.

PA2x: Sounds like you’re hearing the musicians from a distance, but they are now happy to be seen playing live with some great new solo artists.

PA3x: You’re now at the front of the venue where you are getting the full weight of the band and musicianship.

I hope you find the above informative, and will convince you to go and have listen to the instruments yourself, not forgetting Daniel Watt as well if he is in your area.

Bill

Hi Bill. First of all, many thanks for sharing your thoughts on the PA3X following Daniel Watt's impressive show. Especially interesting to hear he's now opted the modern instrument sound vs nostalgic sound approach.

You initially stated that both the T4 and PA3X sound superb yet then state that the Korg PA3X sounds like a bunch of musicians (though oustanding individually) , that don't gel well together. This certainly doesn't sound to me like much of a ringing endorsement of the PA3X as a professional level sounding back up "band", but only impressive when used for playing one individual instrument at a time? The sound of the 'sum of it's' parts' is a critically essential component of an arranger keyboard, so based on that I'm unclear how you conclude the PA3x to be an equally top notch sounding arranger as the Tyros 4.

That said, for what specific arranger keyboard performance situation would you utilize the PA3X over the Tyros 4, and vice versa?

Digging into the specifications for the Pa3x, one can't help but wonder where the sound engine came from. The specifications state:

PA3X
----
"Enhanced RX (Real eXperience) sound engine offers improved realism and new vivid sound, including pianos borrowed from the acclaimed Korg SV-1 Stage Vintage Piano, plus Ambience Drums"

KORG EDS (Enhanced Definition Synthesis) sound generator: 120 Voices, 120 Oscillators – RX (Real eXperience) Technology - DNC (Defined Nuance Control) - Natural Ambience Drums Sound - Filters with Resonance - Three band EQ for each track

PA2X
----
KORG EDS (Enhanced Definition Synthesis) sound generator: 120 Voices, 120 Oscillators – Filters with Resonance - Three band EQ for each track


They didn't borrow any technology from the Kronos or the Oasis other than the EDS sound engine. It looks like it's the same sound engine from the Pa2x. They may have upgraded the effects and filters a bit since they added "ambience" drums.

So sound wise, I don't see where there is any difference from the Pa2x; ON PAPER.

Same Sound engine, same RX Experience = Same Sound.

From the Korg Pa3x page on korg.com:

1) Professional Final Mastering tools from “Waves Audio” plugins “MaxxAudio ™ ” suite.

2) Up to 8 Stereo Effects at once, including flexible Master and Insert routing for Styles and songs. New Vintage Effects from the acclaimed SV-1 Stage Vintage Piano

These are clearly improvements. The Pa2x/Pa800 did only have 4 stereo effects and apart from the equalizer there was no user control of the mastering stage. I remember that my Pa800 had a somewhat overly compressed sound. I would guess that the Waves plugins sound much better.

Yamaha use the same sound engine AWM almost 20 years on their arrangers and synths. No difference there also

Not much difference on paper, Al, and, I'm still inclined to say, there is not much difference sound wise.

If I play a Tyros3 and Tyros4 side by side, I can hear a difference, not just in individual sounds and styles, but overall as well. Having played both instruments for quite some time, the difference is more than subtle in my opinion.

Going by the on-line demos for the PA2X and PA3X, I can't hear much difference at all, and, unfortunately, that's the only way most people have to compare the two, as very few places are stocking and showing the latter.

Have you played a PA3X, Al? Do you know someone who has, and whose judgement would be unbiased and reliable?

So far, I have experienced neither one, but hopefully, this will soon be ameliorated.

Ian

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=62236

Check out the reply by Miden.

Col

I still say after hearing all the demos on both and comparing specs...

KORG PA3x = great "features" for live play.

Yamaha Tyros4 = unmatched sounds and styles.

Yes, I have talked with Miden.

He wrote to me, and I quote verbatim, "Now that I have had the PA3 for a couple of hours, the sound, whilst not QUITE at the T4 level, is very very close to the T4."

I thought the same thing with some of the sounds, but I still find the overall Korg sound, one-dimensional, as do several others...mind you, this is from listening on-line. "Hands on" may change opinions, and then, it may not.

The OS systems are basically something one really likes or finds cumbersome. Dennis preferred the Korg, as he is already very familiar with that system, so that is hardly surprising.

Some find Yamaha OS more intuitive, and some like Korg.

It was great to hear Dennis's impressions, but we still need more "hands on" reports, in my opinion.

Ian

Frans what is your obsession with countering every friggin conversation with an anti-tyros sentiment? I get that you don't like the keyboard. Who Cares?

I owned a Pa2xpro. I wanted to love it. I wanted to see Korg come out with a better keyboard. I'm trying to analyze what they did come out with.

Give it a friggin' rest will ya?

Hey the one who is always bashing Korg is you and if someone is saying something about your precious Tyros you got angry. You are a big hypocrite. Get a life. I also read your Korg bashings on youtube here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfI-kw1SGlk

Hi Scott

The best way I can describe it, is that the T4 musicians are like a classical orchestra where everything is finely balanced, whereas the Korg is like a Jazz Band where it’s still a combined band, but with more individualism. (Which you prefer is all down to personal preference)

Hi Ian

I will be surprised if you can’t hear the difference between the PA2x and PA 3x when played live, as it stood out to everyone that attended the club.

Hi Al

The sound engine of all the PA series is based on the Korg Triton Sound Engine, with each model having upgraded versions, just like the Yamaha AWM sound engine has been upgraded over time to the T4 level.

BTW The Speaker system Daniel was using, were 2 x Bose L1 with Subs

Hope this answers your question.

Bill

Thanks Bill...I'm looking forward to playing it, but, no sign of them around my area.

Ian

Wasn't going to post again, but some clarification is needed...

I was talking about individual sounds being very VERY close to the Tyros 4. The T4 still shades the PA3 especially with the SA sounds. As for the rest (as in non SA, and non DNC/Rx) both keybaords are about the same, with the PA shading the T4.

On the overall sound (as in what comes out the front as a total package) the PA3 is better than the T4, feels more in the moment, and some of the longer style sections available on the Korg do make a difference, less repetition.

However the actual style programming on the T4 is better, although the new styles on the PA3 are again very close. The legacy styles are not.

And there is still NOTHING that compares to the Songbook for live play work...all the guys who will quote the Yammie registration system, have obviously never SERIOUSLY worked with the Songbook!!

The T4, whilst sounding (again, overall "out front" sound - not individual instruments in isolation) more live and dynamic than its predecessors, I still found a bit too "balanced".

The WAVES audio tools package is very very good, as is the harmony/vocals engine from the TC Voice Live II series.

Chord sequencer is okay, but a bit awkward to use on the fly, especially when it requires the simultaneous pressing of two buttons (from a group of three) to start it, then pressing them again to stop the recording, and then another simultaneous press of a different two buttons (from the same group of three) to start it.

As a live tool I would have expected single dedicated tabs, as if you miss slightly the pressing of the buttons it doesn't start...I guess it's one a user will have to get used to, but Korg COULD have done this much better.

The keybed (76) is a brand new one and totally surprised me. It is much better than the PA2 and better than anything now on the market. Apart from the concave key top, even better than the G70.

Also they have upgraded all the panel buttons I think, as they all feel rather solid, and less "plasticky" than the PA2. They are also far better grouped for live play as well.

Righto that's about it for now. just wanted to clarify things a bit.

Dennis

Hi Dennis, congratulations on getting a PA3X, and thanks for your balanced well presented review.
In all honestly, I pretty much knew all along that you wouldn't be entirely happy with the Tyros 4 that you initially purchased
because it lacks Korg's unique Songbook feature that you need,
so I'm very happy to discover that you've found a more compatible (for you) fit with the PA3X.

Can the chord sequencer rec & stop/playback function simply be assigned to and triggered via a (single?) foot pedal instead?

Yes, one pedal control for each command (ie one for start recording, one for play - I guess an alternate press stops recording, although I have not tested this as yet).
So the EC5 (optional extra purchase) would be needed. Although with the new Auto Fill In (on or off at the users choice), this means using the EC5 for fills would probably not be necessary, ergo freeing up a couple of the foot switches.

Al, Samples are CRITICAl as well as programming all the parms....
So, the same sound engine is only a small piece of the pie.
Kurzweil has used basically the same sound engine for many years and gets SUPER new sounds each time around....using great samples & expeet sound engineers/ programming...

When I check out the PA3...I will be listening very carefully to the sounds.... as the PA2X had MANY bad sample issues.

If they used the same ones...I'm out of there!
(And I told them in Italy about every bad sound/sample 3 years ago...IN DETAIL)

Ian,
I have had both T2 and PA2 at the same time.
The OS thing is somewhat personal.
But, what I can tell you is the Yamaha Tx OS gets the job done and is nice in some ways...but if one wants the maximum flexibility and programming/editing the Korg is FAr superior...
Just depends on what you need.

This time I will go with which ever keyboard SOUNDS best to me for what I play...and the OS will just come along for the ride.
Also, I will pat close attention to the styles...I do not want only simple styles????