After discussions in another thread, the following occurred to me

The Tyros & Yamaha series of arrangers + Korg, Roland and Ketron were developed (Sounds, styles, features etc.) mainly in the UK, Germany, Italy and Asia, with specialist versions being made for certain smaller markets

There have also been plenty of 3rd party sounds and styles developed for these instruments from many countries around the world.

As far as I am aware however, there has only been minimal input from the US, which I find quite amazing considering the amount of musical diversity over there. (There are stacks of sounds, loops and features developed by the US for Workstations and computer based music systems)

Does anybody know why? As it seems strange that musicians in the US don’t produce US styles and sounds for them, when the rest of the world is pretty prolific in doing so

Curious

Bill

We had a discussion 6 yers ago.




There has been a discussion on why arranger KBs don't sell well and /or why they are less popular here compare to EU and rest of the world.

feel free to join in.

reasons(why smaller arranger market in US)
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This is my take.

It's not just EU,it's the rest of the world)asia or south america) vs US.

reason?

simple.

Compare to the rest of the world we have more LIVE music with LIVE bands.(other countries have their LIVE music with their traditional instruments) unless it's their pop or pop orientated music(in a small bar situation - an arranger took over)where in US you can still hire 3-4 piece live band relatively cheap .

The Audience - more arranger bar going people(at night) are also younger than in US / expect live music in the place(where arrangers comes - (arrangers there are also dance machines too-all newest hit dance songs are written and played in bars).

they still have younger crowd who loves harder rock live music (where in US more younger crowd is into -Hip hop or DJ).


another thing

prices of the instruments -

do you notice that for gtr related products,it's THE CHEAPEST in US. 99$ simple Digitech pedal is 99 pounds(149$) in UK and so on.(think Gas prices-it's the tax-3$ now in US,6-7$ in EU(yes both in UK or Germany).


US vs rest of the world

even after Korea or now China -overseas gtr production-
the standard instrument for pro live band is always a US strat ,LP or high end other guitars which relatively is more expensive for the rest of the world(yeah you can buy a US strat with a month's pay here but not so in the rest of the world).(I'm talking about pop orientated music which has the largest market in every country.(not hard rock or havier stuff where EU still have the edge over US as live bands.)

another reason(for Bands)- Transportation - since almost everyone has cars in US so lugging and transporting your gear (KB or GTR equipment) is less painful than getting a cab.


And not but the least - the biggest market of Western music(not just country music) - ie blues,jazz,country etc music is still in good old USA where you have tons of bands making tons of original music with LIVE bands.that's not the same with EU(compare the population too) or rest of the world.

I still love to see many LIVE bands with original music in this good old US of A and still enjoy to play and make money with my arranger/ and play gtr in a live band.


_____________________________________________________________

this is what i believe.
diff b/t US and EU/mid east/asia is use of arranger KBs.in US it's more live band(zillions bands)taking the gigs where in other parts of the world arrangers/seq OMB rules the clubs.
social mobility also plays a role.in US most have cars(cheap cars and cheap gas compared to any parts of the world-yes still cheap)so a drummer carrying his set/guitarist with his 1x12,vocalist with PA etc, is not as big deal compared to outside USA (with only minor exception of west and north EU).

KB players role in US(piano,EP,organ and some strings)because in a live band you can find qualified reed or horn player with quality instument.since jazz/blues are our music.
not the case in other parts of the world.Kb player MUST emulate sax,trumpet etc..

Also if you look at pro KB market you can also see the diff.Band based US sells more modern analog KB compared to workstaion ROMpler in other parts of the world.

still I believe all big retailers should carry(GC,sam ash)high end pro arrangers regardless of their sales,because people do buy arrangers in US and it's a growing market.

arranger user age is also different.in EU,asia,mid east arranger KB players are younger (in 20')(d/t market in US they in a band)in US it's older(most are retired)(also older crowd for nursing,retired home with 60s, 50's standards)(where in other countries new radio hit will be sequenced and immediately play in club scence-pop ,dance songs).

any opinions?

[This message has been edited by jamman (edited 06-15-2006).]









Click on these links.


http://www.synthzone.com/forum/ubbthread...US_vs#Post92009

http://www.synthzone.com/forum/ubbthread...on_US#Post95038

I agree with you on third party styles, but the built in styles and sounds are a different story.. One example is the Country Music styles and sounds on Yamaha that would never be confused with anything but USA based. Another is Swing and Jazz with Big Band Styles and Sounds based on American performers from the past. I could include R&R from the 60's and other than British beats, they are all made with U.S. songs in mind.

I'm sure when Yamaha set out to develop sounds and styles for Arrangers, that someone from North America would have input into what they should sound like. If they were ALL developed in other Countries, they fooled me, because they are perfect for most all songs produced in the U.S.

Just my opinion, but I think Yamaha Arrangers have a near perfect World diversity platform...whoever was the developer. Latin and World yes, could be more diverse, and this is why non U.S. based third party styles are popular because of a need in those countries for more.

Here is the US WorkStations, synths, digital pianos out sell arrangers probably 10 to 1. If you are going to invest your money in the music industry, guest where it will go.
Go to any of our big music retailers stores (Guitar Center and Sam Ash) and observe where the customers go:
1- Guitars
2- Drums and other percussion instruments
3-Keyboards (no arrangers)
4- Wind instruments
5- Speakers and amplifiers

and then, in the way out they maybe will notice an arranger and just pass by.

Another factor is the education system. Observe the parents looking for instruments for their children in school, they never ask for an arranger.
Most of the arranger use in US is by people 40+ years old.
Arrangers are no used in Churches either. I only know 2 churches (from around 500) around here that use them.
Investment is going to be where the market is.

Interesting observation, but not sure what the popularity of arrangers or the lack thereof, has to do with Bill's topic of U.S. styles, sounds, and features, and the input of U.S. users of said styles available for current Arrangers.

If I understand him correctly he was questioning why the U.S. and U.S. Arranger users do not have more 'say' in the overall platform of Arranger keyboards, and the lack of third party styles and sounds available from said U.S. users.

BTW...we all know Arrangers are probably not the best selling items at stores like Guitar Center, Sam Ash, etc.
I'm not sure what that means, but it does not mean that Arrangers are inferior, just made for a particular market.

I would also add that arranger keyboards generally are more expensive and in a down economy in the US, keeping high dollar inventory on hand is not practiced much. Everytime something new comes out, like a Tyros keyboard, you won't find it in the local Guitar Center or Sam Ash. Here in the tri-state area in the east, the only stores that will have one to demo are the high profile showcase stores in Manhattan- New York City. As for Ketron, forget it. Everything is special order only. If you're lucky you can make an appointment at a distributor open during the day (weekdays only) to try one out. Of course, you'll probably be working those hours and can't get there. One reason these forums are so popular is because here we have to rely on others' reviews and online research before taking the plunge.

I agree with some of the stuff Machetero said, i actually wrote
a little about it on Korg forums. I personally as my opinion cannot
see a US version of an instrument especially arranger...why would
it be called a USA version, based on what? Since in my opinion there
is not USA Music except few Country styles and maybe some Jazz stuff.
Western is one thing in my opinion and USA would be part of it.
Having a German or Polish arranger makes a lot more sense then having
a USA arranger. Another big thing, which is also a fact is the age,
if you watch closely and i have A LOT of experience with users since
i contact tens of them on a daily basis as customers, User in USA who
play arrangers are generally people over 40-50 while in the rest of
the world the story is different, it is mainly people under 40.
In the rest of the world every Youngster has an arranger while in the
US every Youngster has a Workstation. There is a funny fact that many
people including me know that in USA a WS outsels Arranger maybe 10-1
while in the rest of the world that i know of on every WS there is
like 20 Arrangers...at least in all of the regions i deal with such
as the whole Middle East and Balkans, South Asia, Eastern Europe and Spain.
Now, on the other hand, USA musicians who dont play Western music, they
all again have Arranger ONLY even though they live in the USA.
From all of my Customers Database 10 in 14 that require my services are
for Arrangers while at the same time 8 in those 10 are for Korg.
I get an email about Yamaha once a month while Rolan once in 3 months.

Are not Yamaha arrangers already mostly US based?

I always thought most of the styles including Country, Ballads, Swing and Jazz, and R&B on a Yamaha Arranger were made for music that was made popular in the USA.

Hi Larry

You are correct, however there was not any (Or minimal) input from US musicians, they were pretty much all programmed by UK & German style creators.

Bill

Got it...never knew that.

Now I agree, that it IS kind of strange that Yamaha arrangers are mostly US based, but are more popular outside the US.

So can we speculate that Europeans have kept the Arranger market alive?