Before I sell my Pa500 today I made some comparison tests using same styles (taken from pa500 and loaded on pa3x). I only adjusted higher the volume on the Pa500. Master EQ off on both arrangers

Styles
http://soundcloud.com/vgrodek/pa3x-test-standard-beat
http://soundcloud.com/vgrodek/pa500-test-standard-beat
http://soundcloud.com/vgrodek/pa3x-test-easy-listening/s-tdvEy
http://soundcloud.com/vgrodek/pa500test-easy-listening

Sounds (always played on Pa3x first)
http://soundcloud.com/vgrodek/pa3x-pa500-one-on-one-compare
http://soundcloud.com/vgrodek/pa3x-pa500-harmonica-compare
http://soundcloud.com/vgrodek/pa3x-pa500-compare-nylon-slide
http://soundcloud.com/vgrodek/pa3x-pa500-wide-strings-patch

PS Sorry I can't solve the background noise problem coming from my PC.

And here is was wondering if the PA800 sounded as good as the PA3X. I hear really no difference in sound between the PA500 and the PA3X. Hmmmmmm.

Thanx for the comparison.

Waiting for more opinions....

Well the guy on Mercado LIbre (our E Bay) who was about to buy my Pa500 this afternoon didn't turn up. So I could make more tests... haha

Are you using a USB or FireWire audio interface to record your demos? You could use a stereo DI box from your keyboard or mixer with the ground lifted.

thats why i never 'upgraded from the PA1X to the 2X or 3X. Despite the hype they sounded to me too much like what i already had.

They Both sound pretty darn close to me also..... For Me,I don't know if the approx $2500.00 difference in price is worth it for the upgraded features offered by the PA3x... same scenario with the S910/Tyros 3 or 4 ..... I'm very happy with my PA500 it sounds great and does what I need an arranger KB to do on stage.

Gotta agree I can't tell much difference. I don't regret the Pa3x at all, I had a Pa800 and Pa2x. Although it's been a couple of years since I owned those, I can unequivocally say I hear a feel a difference when I play the 3x.

Vagro, you have both so you can A/B them, what's your opinion?

Now that's the beauty of a Korg PA3x. It can sound like a PA1x, PA80, PA50, PA500, PA800, PA2x Pro but it can also sound like a PA3X

Hi,
I can't hear any difference in the demo's, there again , I'm listening thru a $300 notebook.
Personally I can hear a difference between my PA800 & my PA3x when played thru same soundsource.
Whether or not the difference in sound would make it worthwhile for someone to upgrade, really don't know, suppose depends on the individual.
If all the upgrade gave me was slightly better sound quality, I probably wouldn't have bothered.
Pa3x has a better feel when playing.
It's got extra new voices.
It's got new styles.
It's got 4 fills instead of 2, making the transition smoother between the variations.
It has auto fill if one wants to use it.
It has a Chord sequencer.
It has XG mapped drumkits.
It has new Guitar Mode 2, way better than Guitar mode 1, because it can have a mix of midi & guitar mode notes in a single track.
The above reasons are just some of why I felt it was worth me upgrading.

I suppose if new feature & functions don't matter to people why would anyone bother upgrading from a T2 to a T4 . I'm sure the IDENTICAL style would sound just as good in either a T2 T4 or even my psr1500. ( Identical would mean dumbing to something my PSR could play)
Reason why my PSR1500 doesn't sound as good as a T4, is the quality of voices & the newer technology.
You get what you pay for.

Just my 2 cents worth .haahaa

Yes Rikki I agree and the PA3X has 8 effect systems plus 256MB wave rom plus a lot more that his little brothers don't have.

Yep

If you load in a PA 500 style or sound into a PA3x it will sound exactly the same because it does not use any of the new sound and style features available in the PA3x.

This is why these types of comparisons have no relevance, unless you’re just checking for compatibility. (As I have pointed out in previous posts)

On well, perhaps somebody will take notice this time.

Bill

Bill and Rikki,

Thanks for weighing in and letting me know I'm not really off my flippin' rocker. I'm far from being the level of musician that some are here and my ears are aging but I know I hear a difference in the Pa3x when I play it.

Old theme.

Some people don't want to buy the T4, because the PSR S910 sound as good; but others don't want the S910, because the S900 sound as good; still some others few years back don't care about the S900 because the PSR2000 sounded equal or better.

In the Korg side in the same argument. Now some have the opinion that the PA3x sound equal as the PA2x, or the PA1x or even as the PA500, maybe the same in the PA50?

But people never compare DNC or SA voices in either TOFL arranger with the old keyboards, because of course they don't have any, but "sound the same" for some. An old patch in the PSR2000 is going to sound the same in the PSR2000 that in the T4.

In my opinion,trust me, the T4 or the PA3x sound A LOT better that the old generation keyboards. Add to better sound, the wonderful additional features of the new ones.
Maybe we can"t afford them, but the PA3x and T4 are for sure top of the line.

My opinion
Sounds: I can't hear any difference. I used factory sounds, not legacy, in each model

Styles: almost identical. I hear more "live" the Pa3x, basses and drums, perhaps sounds less compressed.

It's been said in the forum many times that TOTL arrangers have more Rom so I would expect less compressed or more layered sounds. I did not notice that on the few I tried.
I chose similar sounds otherwise it would be unfair to judge the sound quality of each arranger. We all know the arranger's technical specifications and sound list by searching in the internet.

I'm very happy with my Pa3x. It sounds quite powerful to my ears, may be I can reach higher volume easily. It has also a more sophisticated Maxx audio EQ which can improve much more the final sound.

Not only did I pay for some extra sounds, I also paid for a very solid metal case (hadn't seen one so good for a long time), extra sliders, buttons, ribbon controller, DNC, EC5 pedal option and excellent keys (keybed) with aftertouch. I think most of the extra money you pay goes to the hardware. I was really very dissapointed with the Pa500 keys, it seemed they could be broken easily and didn't like the blue color either.

I would say that the Pa500 is a very good arranger. If you don't need all the extra hardware features and voice processor you get a good sounding keyboard.

Vagro I agree with your assessments..... after listening to the TOTL units I said the same thing to myself which in turn guided my choice this time around to buy the PA500...
for MY needs I didn't have to spend alot extra to get the same result.

take care

Jonathan:
I am using a Sound Blaster Pci card in my PC. Do I need an audio interface?
Please explain to me how I can improve my recordings. I checked a tiny mixer with usb port:

http://www.alesis.com/multimix4usb

Is the DI box you mention something like this (the price is in pesos don't panic):

http://www.famusic.com.ar/JR/PHONIC-DB2-Activa-Caja-Directa-0803151616101806.html

Thank you.

Hi Stephen,
I can hear a difference between my PA800 & My Pa3X when played thru same speaker system. Whether or not styles are just better balanced or they've used better sounds in the styles, I don't know, but to me, listening to the pa800 version of a style, then listening to the pa3x version of the style, they just sound better.
I suppose I could go to the trouble of checking style for style whether they kept identical instruments for PA800 vs PA3X, I must admit I do some nutty things, but even that's a bridge to far for me , haahaa

I remember a few years back, when i bought my ketron sd2, I thought wow, I've all but, got the sounds from my SD1+ keyboard in this tiny box.
( Sd2 was actually same as sd5 soundsource, and I was aware of that)
Sounds are very good , but, until I did a really close analysis, even though a lot of the sounds were very similar to my sd1+ they just didn't have the same quality & depth to them.

Wouldn't have a clue what the spec are of the Korg, maybe the sounds that the PA500 does have are the same as on the PA3X, BUT, it certainly doesn't have all of them, or a lot of the other features. Having a sampler & a harmonizer etc etc must add cost to the unit.

Tip. Try one of the remix styles from http://www.ekomusicgroup.com and compare that with the original style and you will hear the difference. Ofcource will a style from the PA500 almost sound the same on the PA3x. That is called backwards compatible.

Thanks Rikki no need too !

.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Just the fact that it is even that close to sounding the same says volumes...of course there are some who want to
"MICRO Critique", but in a full "mix" with styles and sounds there isn't much difference.The extra monies are for extra features..

I give up

Frans...let me give it a shot

What you guys are not listening too..Bill and Frans have tried to explain....

You are listening to styles and sounds designed for the PA500, but played back as a compatible sound on the PA3x....in other words..the PA3x can sound like the PA500...but and I mean but...the PA500 can not sound like a PA3x....The reworked sounds and styles are superior to the lesser models...

This is true with all manufacturers,,the top model is always a richer more detailed sound than the middle and lower lines...

Another example..Roland E86 could not sound like Roland G800, but the G800 could sound like the E-86 ..The G800 had additional sounds that were better...likewise the G800 could not sound like the G1000..but the G1000 could sound like the G800 or even the E86..the G1000 had additional banks of sounds.

The top models have better samples , larger sample rom, better converters...and these alone will give a better sound than the mid lines...


I hope you guys get it now...if not like Frans..."I give up"

One way to find out ......just listen to some more A/B comparisons of both KB's with the same EQ and sound/style setups.......simple eh?

Hi Guys
Fran,I know exactly what you mean.

I've actually still got my PA800, the styles I'm referring to are actually the factory style for the pa800 vs the factory style for the pa3x. A lot of the styles that are on the PA800 are also on the PA3X , except that they now have 4 fills instead of the 2. I'm just saying that somehow, they sound better.

Couldn't help myself, just had to check a couple.

Easy Pop 1
New Wurly Amp chorus Piano instead of Syn Piano X. They used different DrumKits & Bass. JazzKit RX2,Standard Kit RX4. They've used a different bass Slap Finger Bass RX ( RX sounds are Velocity Sensative, ie similar to Yamaha's mega sounds.ie Bass hit at different velocity it produces a different type of sound or a sound effect) Real String2 instead of a simple GM string.
They've changed some of the sounds in the above style & they've also used a couple of brand new ones, that's why I suppose I thought it sounded better than the PA800 version.

A couple of the other styles they've replaced normal sounds with DNC sounds.

I'm not sure the if the PA500 has the RX & DNC voices?? if it doesn't, be the equivalent of my PSR1500 ( no mega sounds) vs the T1 ? or maybe even the T2.

I personally was very happy with my psr1500, at the time I didn't want to spend the extra buying a T series, I didn't know whether it would be the right brand for me. It wasn't, but the korg is , so I'm happy spending the extra money.

Hi,
Senior moment, that should read Velocity Switch not Velocity Sensative. haahaa

i dont think anyone is saying that the sounds on all the styles and all the individual sounds on the PA500 compared to the PA3x are the same. What i certainly am saying is that the number of different styles and sounds and the actual difference in sounds is not sufficent to encourage me to buy the PA3X. I dare say if i had a Tyros 2 i probably would not be interested in the T4 either as the difference is not big enough to merrit spending a hell of a lot more for not much more. Some folks feel differently and thats cool but i would guess that buying a PA3x over a PA500 in terms of styles and sounds would cost you 3 times as much for possibly 30% more/better styles/sounds. Thats not a good enough reason to buy another keyboard that sounds "almost " the same as my current keyboard. I would be looking for the same diffence the T4 is to the first Tyros to consider that sonic jump to be worthwhile upgrading.

In no way am i knocking anyone elses reasons for buy ing the latest greatest. It keeps the economy going if nothing else. Lord knows we need that to continue :-)

I thought that was the exact reason for the original topic post.


BTW...Fran, Frans, Rikki, and Bill have it correct. Newer keyboards can play older keyboard files and will sound the same or better.

Older keyboards can (sometimes) play newer keyboard files but will not sound the same, unless the exact same voices were used, which is unlikely. Even then, the newer keyboard sound engine plays a big role in the quality of the sound that the older keyboard cannot match.

My conclusions

1) I enjoyed very much the discussion on this topic.

2) Test Result: FAILED.
The Reason: I used Pa500 styles and sounds and it sounds the same in a superior model.

3) Possible tests to try:
a)compare new original Pa3x styles/sounds and standard Pa500 styles/sounds independently.
b)compare Pa3x styles/sounds played on Pa500.
The Result: Sure to FAIL
The Reason: inappropiate Master EQ settings, improper volume settings, recording problems, inadequate style/sound comparison, etc...

4) Nobody changed their minds: Pa500 and Pa3x owners are very happy with their choice. Everyone has a reason to think so.

5) A final thought: Let's say you close your eyes and ask to be driven blindfolded in a regular car for a short trip in the city. Do the same in a Lamborghini and don't touch anything. You'll get to your destiny in both at the same time and you'll probably feel a 30% more confortable in the second car. Now open your eyes and say what you think.
The pa3x offers much more than sounds.

Fortunately for me, I really like my PA500, and since I just retired, won't be seeing a new keyboard soon. In any case, all of the new arrangers have marvelous sounds and features. And when I compare the $1k I spent for a Gibson organ in 1967 with the $1k for the Korg PA500 in 2011, the advances in sound and features over the years is amazing.

Duane

Duane ... congrats on your recent retirement ... more time to make music ...

Retirement from the 9 to 5 gig is one of the BEST things I've done ... following right after getting married, having kids, having grandkids ...

Then you misread the original post lahawk.

this is what the original post actually said

'Before I sell my Pa500 today I made some comparison tests using same styles (taken from pa500 and loaded on pa3x). I only adjusted higher the volume on the Pa500. Master EQ off on both arrangers'

so clearly he was only comparing some of the same styles on the PA500 that are also on the PA3x. The funny thing is even though i hear the backward compatible argument rolled out time after time that should mean that the styles are compatible which they are but clearly the same old sounds are also being used which was evident from the tests regardless as to what you might wish to believe about the benefits of the 'new ' sound engine.

Hi Guys,
it's not only the sounds, the style player has a lot to do with it ie the note transposition tables & settings.
I look at some of the earlier Yamaha style ie psr2000, psr 1500, the styles were really simple styles, ie I mean the notes used in creating the styles.
Pull apart a newer psrs910, or T4 & things have changed. I'm fairly certain Yammie must have added additional note transpostion tables/settings along the way to be able to play the newer more complex styles. (apart from anything to do with megavoices)
Some of the earlier guitar tracks the chord voicings were recorded like you'd record piano chords.

For Korg. In one of the updates to the PA800 , they added an additional setting called CHORD which creates a smoother transition when changing chords .
Guitar mode tracks (to me at least) sound more realistic for strums than midi tracks. I don't know how authentic they are, I'm not a guitarist.

So for me, I don't beleive it's just the newer better sounds, it's the capability of the keyboard to play & accurately transpose the notes to play the newer more complex styles.

RIikki

Rikki, you have an excellent understanding of the technology underlying Korg arrangers, by your explanations you've got a handle on Yamaha too. Thanks for posting!

Spalding, you are missing the point of my explanation...the test indeed were styles "taken from the PA500"...and when they were loaded to play on the PA3x they sounded the same...because they can...it used the same program changes and other data from the PA500 style...

Now if you played the same name style from the PA3x you will see a big difference compared to the PA500 style played....again because it can...The PA500 has zero chance of playing the PA3x style correctly...

Hi Stephen,
not the newer Yammies unfortunately, & I don't think my one Man Band software has the newer settings.
I do fiddle around with the Yammie styles for my conversions to korg in midifile format, so I can tell just how far they've developed in the last few years.
My psr1500 ( & earlier ) were relatively easy ( TIME CONSUMING, but simple) to convert, I did a couple of T3's, whole new ball game.
As a Yamaha owner, you must have noticed a big improvement in the styles themselves ( not just the voices). If you've got any of the early styles like for a psr1500, or psr2000, try muting the other tracks & just listen to a strumming guitar chord, then listen to a new T4 style .Not a rehash of a style that yammie has included in keyboard after keyboard, a brand newie, & see if there's a difference in the way it now plays a strumming guitar , I somehow doubt it still uses those early, chord voicings.

The style player in my many keyboards over the years has always facinated me. I've had Technics, Yamaha, Roland, Ketron & Korg.
Technics KN7 styles system ( transposition tables & settings )was truly amazing. Unfortunately didn't fully sink in till I worked out how some of the other keyboards worked.

Hey guys and gals I didn't chime in on this post to make trouble I swear but............

I been reading it and your all way smarter than this. It's like comparing a Chevy chevette to a Chevy Corvette. Sure they both use the same emblem on the logo, maybe the factory radio gets the same stations, these keyboards are nowhere close to the same.

the D/a converters are different, the effects, the keybed, the preamps, and a million other things, the list goes on and on forever ones looks like a toy beside the other.. don't compare them on a 3/4" computer laptop speaker. This is silly

You guys are professionals, it should be a no brainer!

Again this was not to put anyone down or Hurt feelings but I had to jump in.

Mikey its just that you don't like Blue?

Excellent analogy !

Hi Fran. I was not responding to your post above. I was responding to Lahawk. I understand and accept all your points . The only thing we may or may not agree on is whether the extra sounds,(some i may never use ) or reworked styles( some i will never use) and features (some i will never use) makes the difference betwen the PA500, 1X or 2X so great that makes it worth 3 or 4 times the cost of the former . As i said before , no one is saying that the PA500 and the PA3x are the same. I am saying they are too similar to justify the increased cost for me. Thats not a decison i am saying anyone else has to make.

Its a free country (within limits) spend your money how you wish and best of luck to you and anyone else that wants to spend their money this way.