So I got a call from a real talented bassist/singer that hired me to do a restaurant gig that starts up next week. After talking to him about what he wants and his song selection, I'm thinking we will do about 1/4 of the music with just bass and keys (no drums accompaniment), 1/4 bass and keys with drum accompaniment and the rest of the music with bass, and keyboard in full arranger mode with the bass track muted. Anyone here work with a bassist? Did you do any auto accompaniment at all? Luckily we're going to get together before the gig to see how it works. I'm a bit concerned about how the bass will blend/groove with the auto accompaniment. I’m excited at the potential a live bass can add though because arranger keyboard bass lines can get so old... Anyways it seems like it will be an interesting gig...

As a long-time bassist, I can tell you that this will take more than a day or two of rehearsal. Playing bass is a visual thing. You watch the drummer and the rythem player(s). Your job is to drive the tunes and control the co-ordination between all.

If you can't see the drummer...that's like playing with a drum machine. You follow...not bad, but hard for a bass player to get used to. The arranger is the leader of the group. Likewise, changes in arranger mode are keyed by the left hand of the player. In arranger mode, you won't see the strumming or percussive strikes.

Intros and endings, if used, will have to be memorized by the bass player.

The bass player has a way bigger learning curve than you do. I'd forget arranger mode and just use the drum function. That will get you up to speed faster, and sound way more realistic; especially if the player is really good.


Let us know how it goes.


Russ

What a nightmare coming your way ..Just kidding..

If he is an excellent bass player...don't play bass, left hand or arranger with him..Play two hand piano etc....but I would use the drums...it should help tie you together with him...

When he sings...maybe he should back off the bass and let you play ..left hand bass or arranger bass...

I remember when I started out with a band and I was playing accordion, and we had a real upright bass player that was our singer too...I played mostly the root and fifth as bass and he was able to play the bass lines without too much interference....

Unfortunately on arrangers and left hand bass players...we do more walking and this will destroy another bass player...

Give up the bass to the bass player, play piano and drums..

Good luck Paul.......your gonna need it.....enjoy

I had no problems working with a bass player in arranger mode...make sure you agree on the arrangements, turn off the bass channel in your style, and, most importantly, make sure he has a very good monitor.

I also have often worked with a guitarist successfully, using the same procedure, but making sure the appropriate style part is switched off...if he is doing primarily lead guitar, it is possible to leave one of the Guitar Chord tracks on. Experiment.

Before doing anything, make sure they can play to the arranger's strict tempo...some bass/guitar players, even very good ones, may need time and practice to get used to playing with a strict steady tempo drum track, and some never do get used to it.

In both my cases, we used charts, which made it much easier.

Ian

Fran said it better than I did.

He's totally "on point".

Ian's point about the ability to play in meter is right on, too. I can't tell you of the trained players I know who can't do it...have a TERRIBLE time with a drum machine.

Even my longest partner and teacher had a tendency to rush. We almost drowned our first drum machine in the hotel pool before it all came together.

Full piano mode and bass with drums from an arranger will go smoother and will make you a better player.


All the best...


R.

Paul,
I've used the arranger in arranger mode - but with a lot of the acc turned off - with both a guitar player and a bass player ... even with a drummer while the arranger played the bass part ... they have to LISTEN, but it can be done ...
if he is as good a musician as you are you shouldn't have a problem ... make sure there is a monitor close by ...
Best wishes, and let us know how it works out ...

Fran and Russ are absolutely on the money on this one. If you're a solid two-handed pianist with good left-hand comping chops, controlling the drum fills and variations should be a snap. Leave out the arranger backing altogether. Not only will it be more confusing for the bassist, but it'll have you going back and forth between two playing styles. And, as Russ says, it'll be WAY more realistic (and artistically satisfying). Good luck. Try to get in as much rehearsal time as possible before the gig. If you've ever played in a 'standard' piano/bass/drum trio before, it should be a piece of cake. Also, try substituting a nice tasteful 'Rhodes' on some of the slow tunes. That will provide a little variation. Also, if you're comfortable with it, try a split with piano or Rhodes comps and some easy to emulate lead voices in the right hand. Just suggestions but I've done this many times (with a synth) and it worked out well.

chas

Thanks guys for the great advice. A bass player wouldn't be my first choice for a dou but it's not my gig. But the more I think about it, I think it could work well. I'm preparing by working on 2 handed piano comping and coming up with my OWN intros and endinds. Also I think he'd be open to me covering the bass on some of the funky stuff that he sings lead on. Should be fun because we're covering all sorts of styles- Latin, C&W,R&B, and the old standards too.

I think I've posted about this in the past, but it bears repeating. If it is AT ALL possible, split your drums out to separate outputs. Now, you can feed your bass player some extra drums (in his monitor), to get him back in the groove.

Most musicians have troubles locking to arrangers because they aren't used to hearing the drums buried in the mix. They stand next to him, and can't miss it! And many of us make the problem even worse, by burying the drums by what WE play! Listen to most demos here... The drums are usually close to inaudible compared to the lead sounds. Now imagine your job was to lock to the drummer. Tough!

The answer is to record yourselves during rehearsal. Then listen critically, and try to decide when the drums are swamped, and adjust the Performances or SMF's etc., to make sure they don't. And one of the things that is going to have to happen is for YOU to get used to hearing yourself more IN the mix than ON it.

If you can split out the drums, you are pretty good to go. But if you can't, it is going to take a bit of time for BOTH of you to adjust. But don't give up. Record EVERYTHING (those little Zoom pocket recorders are killer for this), and try to listen objectively. Don't worry about YOUR part, or his part, try to listen to it as if it is a BAND... Do they sound balanced?

If they do, your job is done!

Some friends have a trio, they do mostly jazz gigs in restaurants, hotels etc: Arranger, Bass Guitar and Acoustic/electric and two of them sing. Sometimes the bassist has other work so the arranger can be used to play the bass.

Good advice Diki. I'm sure how to go about doing a separate drum mix to the monitors but I'll look into it.

ToneWheel Dude, that's one thing I love about an arranger based group- there's some much flexibility and so many possibilties.

I had a duo years back with just this setup as outlined by montuno..

Bass player and me. No arrangers back then of course, and the drums were supplied by a Boss DR110. I played a Yamaha PF-10. Even then my back was telling me to give up the Rhodes

The only tip I will make is that what we did, was to jam together over all the songs (no drums) until we were comfy with that, then add the drums a song at a time adjusting them as we went. Easy, as both of us now knew where the other was going on songs..

I have to say that duo was one of the most enjoyable gigging music experiences in my career...totally free to go wherever we wanted with a song, or just do it bog-standard!!

Dennis, that is EXACTLY the approach to take. That way, the keyboard and bass player get "in synch" to the extent that they learn each others preferences/style. For instance, where each would prefer to use a passing chord/note, or where a slight alteration in timing would make for a more dramatic "build" to a chorus, etc.

It's like having a drummer that is strictly a time-keeper. You work around that and build a custom style together.

I worked a bass guitar duo with a drum machine, and an organ/guitar duo with drum machine for years.

Your approach is what worked, in both cases.


Russ

Good on you for stretching yourself. It is good for a soloist to play with others, as it does bring in a new dimension to your playing. You both learn from each other and it can get you out of the rut of just doing thing your way. Which by the way, is perfectly fine and great, but it will change your perception a little.
I know, as I am a bass player in a small band ( instead of keys) and it is awesome the groove you can get with the right people.

Just thought I’d give an update on my bass/keys dou. We did the gig last night at a restaurant/bar. I was a bit apprehensive about job because I’ve gotten so used to play in auto-accompaniment mode and wasn’t sure how this would work with an arranger keyboard. I ended up using these 3 options when I played with the bassist:

1. Drum accompaniment – no other auto accompaniment. This gave me the freedom to play any type of chord voicing’s I liked without having to worry about “confusing” the chord recognition. Great for jazzy stuff and bossa nova comping.

2. Auto accompaniment with bass track muted. This worked out much better than I thought. Great for C&B, funky stuff, and rock n’ roll... Having the auto accompaniment (especially guitar strumming parts) really filled out the sound. The live bass helped so much for tunes that have specific bass line – like Kool and Gang’s “Celebration” or Rick James “Super Freak”

3. Full Accompaniment – including auto bass. We used this for tunes that the bassist didn’t know. Usually I could mute the bass after a chorus or two. Luckily the guy is blessed with fantastic ears.

Unfortunately we never had a chance to rehearse before the gig so I had to just go with my instincts as to which method I’d use. A lot of times I’d employ all three methods during the course of a tune with good results. All in all a great experience that I never really even considered before. I’ve played with horn players, guitarist and percussionists but never thought a bass would be effective. Boy was I wrong! A live bass really helps! Like this bassist is very good, great ears and solid timing. An interesting side note that I didn’t know tell I got to the gig is that he is blind. I”m sure that attributes to his highly developed aural skills.

Paiul who sang these songs you mentioned?

We both sang, although the bassist did most of the sining- he sings much better than me... he sang the two songs I mentioned. I was impressed because those bass lines are fairly syncopated and having to to sing lead vocals over those bass seems hard to me.

Great Paul next time record or video for us......
keep it up baby!!

true talent will ALWAYS rise to the top ... I TOLD you not to worry ...

Thanks Tony. I don't really think of myself as "talented" or anything like that. But I have always tried to spend as much time as possible working on my music.

You are ABSOLUTELY talented my humble friend ...

Don't forget Sting - although the basslines were not really that taxing Same for Paul McCartney

You bet Dennis. Both are great bass player singers. Sting played some very off beat bass lines that would have been very tough to sing over live. I saw Police live at Festival Hall in Melbourne and they were fantastic.