Hold on ... The T4 already has realistic drums. The Real Drum and Real Brush kits on the T4 sound great.

When Apple comes out with an iPad with a higher resolution screen it is not a statement that their previous screen sucked. Similarly, Yamaha has already come out with great drum samples on their T4, just because they're introducing a new technology (probably partly to stop pirating of styles) doesn't mean that the older technology is substandard.

Do the non audio styles on the 950 compare to the drums on the T4?

Give it to them Beaky, they all know that Yamaha spend the most time and money getting it right, they just don't like admit it, you ain't going to win with some folk, so why bother, I like what I hear and see and I ain't gone daft,deaf or blind yet, so there!!!

Tony

Beaky.... 2 kits out of an entire TOTL arranger? That's your justification?

The washed out drums have been the #1 complaint about the Yamaha 'sound' for years. Probably the main reason I won't go near them... But Yamaha, instead of 'trickling' these newer MIDI kits down to the PSR (like so many other Tyros features that appear after a year or so in the PSR series) and starting to address the issue, decide to go with a proprietary, closed to user content audio system that has only 5% of the styles even used. Not to mention that any new audio styles you purchase from Yamaha won't load up without a re-boot, rendering them utterly impractical.

And, let's face it. Even for the TOTL arranger, only 2 kits out of how many? 44 drum kits..? That's barely scratching the surface of the issue.

And I'm sorry, but Tony... if you think this is Yamaha 'getting it right', you have explained a lot about your priorities. This is Yamaha completely dodging the issue, and using an utterly impractical, half-baked idea to cover a glaring need, when an existing T4 solution already exists (albeit it in its infancy). Yikes! You actually HAD an Audya, didn't you! Same technology, basically, but nearly ALL the styles had audio drums, and this pathetic excuse for a feature is floating your boat on a Yamaha while you continue to rag on the Audya..? You haven't made the connection?

Step back a bit from your current choice of arranger, and try to be a bit objective! If the Tyros had gone this route, left you with gutless drums and then only 25 styles with a good tight punchy sound and no practical way to add to them, you would be up in arms about it!

This is Yamaha wasting their AND your money... I am honestly hard pressed to think of anything other than the MS that promised so much and delivered so little.

The T4 allows you to replace ALL the drum samples and create your own custom kits. I have done this on the T4 successfully using the FLASH Ram. So Diki your argument about having 2 really good drum kits doesn't stand. You can also always EQ the drums in the mix to bring them forward or backward in the mix as you like to make them more pronounced.

This drum argument makes me sick. The issue is not about the sound of the drums, it's about the "FEEL" of the drums. You just cannot duplicate the groove of a drummer with midi drums. Audio drums (and more importantly Audio BASS added as well), will bring that groove to life; like a real band. That is the goal. I've been playing drums on stage for 50 years and know a few things about the craft.

The Tyros4's new kits are exceptionally "realistic"...and, as said above in Al's post, you can also add new drum samples via flash memory (I have the 1 gig) and put together your own custom kits.

You are correct about the new technology partly stopping the pirating of styles (which some SZ members feel should be being done--yet they pirate indiscriminately themselves <grin>) as, unlike the many available Yamaha Premium Styles, for instance, the Audio Styles cannot be shared.

As Al has alluded to above, the use of Audio Drums, is to capture more "feel", which can be difficult on any arranger using MIDI Drums, although, I must say manufacturers are getting more adept at it, using clever programming tricks.

Also another value of Audio Drum Styles is in when a rhythm requires multiple, and sometimes simultaneous, versions of a particular percussion instrument, like the several snare drums in a Marching Band style, or multiple congo/bongo drums in a Latin Style.

From the way they were showed to those of us lucky to be at the very first presentation, that's how it was explained to us...the Audio Drum styles aren't intended to replace MIDI drums, because, for one thing, the latter can be edited much easier and extensively, where the audio can not.

If the new midi kits in the S950 are as good, or even 8/10th as good as the new kits in the Tyros4 (and, at first listen, they appear to be), then they will prove totally worthwhile. At the demo, I didn't find the "quality" change from Audio Drums to Midi Drums very dramatic...it was subtle, and, again, it affects the "feel" more than actual sonic quality.

I will know more once I get a demo S950, and I can directly compare it to my own Tyros4.

I suspect the Tyros5, and the soon to appear, CVP-6** series, will have significantly more Audio Drum Styles, but, will also continue to support the still extremely powerful midi drums.

More "in your faceness", can easily be established, again, as Al has stated above), with simple EQ'ing, and, much of the criticism leveled at Yamaha's allegedly less "aggressive" midi drums, is mostly by those who have never tried using the EQ or Filter, or, more than likely, have never spent any real time with Yamaha's latest arrangers.

Speaking from personal experience, Yamaha's Audio drums are very well done...for example, in the S950's fantastic 60's Super Group Audio Drum style, the same microphones, Ringo's actual drum kit, and the very same studio and desk (and effects) were used to record the patterns, so it is extremely realistic. Thjey were even picky enough to use the same type drum sticks. Yamaha's Martin Harris was heavily involved in producing the Audio Drum recordings. We watched a very interesting video of how each type of Audio Drum Style was developed and recorded.

It is nice to see criticism, as some is legit, and it will certainly encourage Yamaha to respond to any really useful suggestions.

We clinicians and demonstrators are urged to submit our own, and, of course, public, suggestions and criticisms...it is partly what has been making the company as successful as it has been these many years.

Ian

BTW, the S950, judging from initial interest ( I got hundreds of emails), looks to be potentially even more successful than the S910, which sold in higher numbers than nearly any other Yamaha MOTL arranger.

I think (and hope) they are on the right path.

If they gave us good drum samples(bfd2,superior drums...) we wouldn't need these audio styles.We are just being lab rats for Yamaha.But,again it's not their fault.

Regarding the 2 drums, I've never played the T4, but the two kits I mentioned that were demoed sounded extremely warm and realistic compared to my S910's drums. I haven't given a good listen to other kits. I love the drums in all the T4 demos, but I don't know what kits they're using.

As Ian said, you can substitute a custom drum kit as well on the T4, so ...

Anyway, I look forward to getting my S950. If it's more than a few steps above the S910, I'll be pretty happy.

Actually, Audio Drum Styles have many distinct advantages over MIDI drums...it is not just sound quality, but, as I explained above (in only one instance), with Audio Drums multiple versions (almost unlimited) of snares, bass drums, toms, cymbals, can be used in the rhythm, something not possible with the MIDI Drums on any manufacturer's arrangers. The "feel" of the drum patterns can be more natural and realistic, since it is an actual drummer's (or, in some cases, drummers) performance being recorded.

Personally, I don't feel we will see midi drums being phased out, or replaced by Audio Drums...and, if Yamaha's drum kits don't float your boat (and perhaps other features don't appeal, either), it is easy enough (and encouraged) for the player to buy from a manufacturer that more adequately satisfies his/her wants and needs.

These days, it is fortunate we have a choice between brands of arrangers.

Ian

Diki,

It worked I reeled you in, that's all I wanted, predicable as ever, you even going back to the old Audya thing, your like a number 98 bus, smack on time. I don't give a toss about any KB, just like winding you up. it appears to work. BTW Diki I never read anything past line ten on SZ, I just spotted my name and Audya that drew my eye down a little further.