Darren,

I am glad you're leaning towards flat EQ and on board recordings (where possible). That should be a good reference point. At least she was even kind enough to do 'something' when I told her of what we were doing here and your requirements - after not seeing any Tyros 4 postings.

Scott - you're right. I did mine flat just to have a base as everyone's EQ setting would be different (depending on internal speakers, what PA they use ... etc). Using a flat setting should be a good foundation for all to follow - but yet again, not everyone's keyboard will sound great with a flat EQ setting.

AJ... the Audya has been out how many years now? Since 2008, right? so 4-5 years.

How many brand new styles have become available for it (FULL audio styles, with audio drums, audio basses and audio guitars, as they seem to be such an important point for being superior) in the last 4-5 years? Not MIDI styles that use the existing ROM audio parts, but completely new audio everything?

Particularly, how many styles with a relevance to the UK/US market (few of us do much Baltic or Mediterranean music!)..?

For those of us that keep our arrangers WAY past the introduction of the next version of it, this is some pretty important info.

The thing is, Because the Audya's styles are more human than Midi styles, they remain fresh, even after 3 or 4 years. It issuprising how sensitive the human ear is to repetition - hence the need for a constant stream of styles and new products from Yamaha and other manufacturers who's patterns are not only shorter than ketron but also are exactly the same regardless of the chord you are playing. (fret noise in bar 1 will be heard in 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 and so on)

Ketron Italy have released style updates annually since the Audya was released in late 2008 (2009 in the Americas). Ketron UK have a style update program in place and various third party companies offer Audio Styles too. But realy they are non essential.

Also its very simple to create your own styles using 'ingredents' on the machine (as I have done).

Personally I would rather have six or 700 live styles than tens of thousands of midi styles any day. And when a new Audio drum loop does become available it is very exciting as it can be used in many different new styles. (I have already turned Robert Messiers 5 styles into 15 or 16 using the Audio drums and mixing style parts from legacy styles and live guiars, plus library parts. For anyine wanting to do something totally new (or use existing parts too)they can use style compiler .

Thing is, there's nothing to stop MIDI styles from having drum parts (and others) for a full 16 bar length. Korg already have many style 8 or 16 bars long, which on the drums allows the same degree of lack of repetition, and contributes to many of the Korg styles sounding so good. It isn't a function of the technology, simply of the laziness of people making the styles. You could have two bar loops on an Audya, too..! But Ketron chose not to do that. Nothing to do with audio vs. MIDI.

And sorry, but Yamaha, and others allow different patterns for Maj, Min, 7th (sometimes Dim) which allow you to do the exact same trick. That they don't, often (again, Korg seems one of the best at utilizing this), is not because the technology to do it isn't there... again, it's just that they don't spend the time.

However, doing these subtle tricks is quite easy for someone to do themselves.. Edit the Min sub-variation to move that squeak or slide to another point, or alter a note here and there, rinse and repeat for 7th and dim, save the style... Voilá! Ketron matched!

Extend (copy to itself) the drum track to be 8 or 16 bars long, get in and start adding the odd note, moving the odd note, erasing the odd note, changing the odd velocity... You don't need to do a whole lot to get enough change to make it seem less repetitive. Rinse and repeat on the bassline, the guitar part, however much you feel the style needs...

To be honest, I'm not that keen on endlessly stirring the same ingredients together to try and coax something new out of an arranger. For me, only TWO reggae styles with audio parts won't give me many variations (especially as utterly different they both are!). And you can't make something utterly new from existing parts. Again, one of the strengths of the MIDI system is that, should you find an SMF with a really cool groove, a nice strumming part, bassline, nice percussion, it's easy to grab it and make a style using it (or insert it into an existing style).

So far I have seen no reply to my questions about how easy it is for the user to grab loops from loop libraries and create their own entirely audio part styles... I would have thought this should be primary in an audio arranger. As fractured as the music scene is, as important to young players that easy loop import and editing is, as focused as the factory ROM is on mostly mainstream styles (seriously, two reggae styles?), opening up and making it incredibly easy to import loops and trim them, slice them, whatever the system needs would go a long way to coming to parity with MIDI styles.

But if most of what you can do to get NEW totally audio styles is mix and match the existing ones (with zero editing capability once you have to say match the 'groove' of one audio part with another), again, the benefits don't make it worth the shortcomings, IMO.

Content is King... For an arranger that is so proprietary (can't import audio styles from anything else! LOL), jacking out a copious stream of new, utterly new audio styles (not just drums, but new guitar and bass parts, etc.) is what will put it head and shoulders over the competition. Sorry, but I still believe what advantages it has (trust me, I recognize them) are negated by the disadvantages, and you end up about on par.

Diki,

This is not my thread & hence I don't want to say too much.

Tell me my friend, all those things that you state "could" be done with a midi style - do you actually "do" it? If so, you are a very "busy" man & I don't know where you find the time in between to perform.

And all the things that "could" be done on midi styles for various chords, on the Audya they "are" done already for me.

God forbid that I have to go to that extend on my Audya to make my styles usable...

One last thing that you so coveniently overlook in your highly educated discussions, my Audya can play any midi style just the same as your arranger. The audio sections are extra & your arranger CANNOT offer those. I'm not limited to audio alone. My Audya can do ALL those midi tricks you are so fond of highlighting - so I'm loosing out on NOTHING! I have EVERYTHING you have already onboard plus a LOT that you don't have & again, stock standard & onboard!

Currently I have many, many more midi styles on my Audya than Audio styles. I have the flexibility to mix & match, play them sepererately or do just about anything that pleases me with those. You are FAR from having the same - you can only dream - period!

So, what are you critidsizing then that your arranger can do that the Audya cannot, or maybe cannot according to your opinion?

Henni

Henni, I think you are reading more into Diki's post than what there is....

What I get from his last post...He is basically saying that although Audya is at the top with audio loops ..you can not have the flexability that midi drums offer (edits)...He was not favoring his keyboard..he even gave praise to the Korg..

As for being difficult editing drum patterns (midi)...it does have a learning curve, but easily done with on board tools (my experience with Roland )...Audio loops leave you with no edit options other than switching to midi ...

As for custom styles..I find no need for a large library..a half dozen is my choice...Yes we can definately find exsisting styles to use...

Again, some of the tricks Diki mentioned..using the intro endings to re-write as breaks...( a need on the G70)..

I don't think Diki is slamming the Audya...he asked about continuing Audya loops being available..and a few folks say they have been releasing new loops...

When you use the audio loops on the Audya, and switch to midi ...it is very noticeable..The audio drums spoil us..

There was a post by Tony ..wanting a pattern (style) that goes from latin to swing in different variations...Perfect senario for Diki's comments about editing with midi..Impossible with on board audio loops..

If audio drums are SO superior to MIDI ones, who, on a Ketron, is going to be happy to HAVE to move to the inferior MIDI kits just to be able to do the very basic editing things (that the rest of us take for granted)?

And sorry guys, but yes, I've done this a BIT... TBH, with my style of play (I try to do as little as possible with the arranger and play as much as humanly possible myself), I haven't had a great need for it. But yes, I've done some drum editing, moved kicks and hits around, edited the odd fill that bugged the hell out of me, etc.. It takes FAR less time than you think. Remember, you ain't making a style from scratch! Just mousing a few notes around. Try it! You might find it isn't rocket science.

The only points I've been making lately have been responses. Almost every feature of Ketron's audio styles touted as 'exclusives' can also be done with MIDI styles. The only difference being, should you choose to, you can do it YOURSELF.

There are some of us that buy an arranger, switch it on, and that's about it. If it does everything we want, we are good to go. If not, we try another until we find one that DOES. Then there are some of us that, if it doesn't do exactly what we want OOTB (and I must confess, as a US resident, a LOT of our musical needs sure don't come OOTB!) we need something where it is possible to MAKE it do what we need. That, I think, is the defining watershed between happy Audya users and those that need just a little bit more!

I missed the post a bit earlier where AJ laid out importing drum grooves into the Ketron. Not bad, overall, not too difficult (I imagine that you'll need to do any sample trimming and triple check for tempo in a computer), but I think he makes it a bit overcomplicated, in a way...

Commercial and freeware drum loop libraries are plentiful and often affordable, played by the very best, recorded in the best studios... I think, rather than hiring a drummer to play your MIDI loop, you simply audition these and find what you need.

Plus, in lieu of arranger manufacturers finally making sample ROM sizes big enough (or a Kronos SSD type system where Ram is jacked in fast enough to be practical on a gig) to use VSTi size drum kits, with their level of detail, get a good selection of the best VSTi kit libraries and their associated MIDI libraries (Toontracks have a huge selection for their kits) and then simply export the drum loop (that you CAN edit all you like!) as a .wav for importing into the Audya.

Mind you, I'm not reading anything about new strumming libraries, am I? Basslines, if the import system is the same, shouldn't be a huge issue, but guitar strumming, with Ketron's hybrid audio/MIDI system for getting more than basic Maj, Min, 7th chords is probably an issue. Shame, really, as, just like drums, there are some fantastic guitar strumming and picking patterns (in most chord types and keys) libraries out there...

But, at least from users here, most of what I'm getting from actual Audya USERS is that, it's fine as is, never made an audio style yet... no matter HOW simple it seems!

Dikki,

I thought I had answered this quesion above in great detail but in all that text, the answer could have been burried (sorry)...

"So far I have seen no reply to my questions about how easy it is for the user to grab loops from loop libraries and create their own entirely audio part styles"

Here is the summarized answer:-

* Grab "loops from loop libraries" and copy them into the AUDYA's AUDIO DRUM Folder in it's Hard Drive.
* Go to the AUDYA'S PATTERN EDITOR/STYLE CREATOR and create style
* Go to STYLE VIEW and insert/replace with the AUDIO parts.
* Save your new style.

That's how easy it is.

Again remember - AUDYA does have the MIDI STYLE creativity, editability and flexibility most other top of the line arrangers have. The AUDIO intergration is just the plus ... the "AMG" added to the Mercedes, the "M" added to the BMW which is what makes it stand out from the others!

As for number of UK/US/Western additional styles since it's creation:-

* Ketron 107 -> (47 in 2011 USB pen drive update plus 60 in 2012 USB pen drive updates) and more in the works -
* AJAMSONIC 95 -> (55 in Version 1 and 40 in Version 2) and more in the works -
* Ketron UK 5 -> (5 as of Feb, 2012) and Style Program is promising yet even more.

That's a total of over 207 (*) UK/US/Western only new Styles with Audio parts included (which cover Ballad, Pop, Dance, Party, Rock, Swing, Latin/Carribbean, Folk, and Ballroom)!! I am not aware of another provider of Ketron AUDIO styles to include in this count but considering the time and dedication it takes to produce these so they sound 'right' out of the box, it's not a bad start.

You are correct - Audio in general does have limited editing capabilities but just as you had earlier mentioned, "If an audio loop is perfection, you are good to go" and this is what we strive for so you are 'good to go' out of the box.
"Mind you, perfection for one tune might be too busy or not busy enough for another" and here is where you are givin the option to select from a vast library of say Pop Audio drums (busy/not too busy, heavy/not too heavy on kick/snare/tom, with/without Effects, higher/lower original BMP to determin style tempo range, with Techno/Acoustic/Electonic etc drum kits ... etc). The permutations and combinations come close to endless. Given this selection, the desire/need to edit individual drum parts fades away.

(*) There could be more by third party style creators and others out there which I am not currently aware of.

Yes Fran,

You've are right. Bottom line is this: Take any arranger of your choice, & I mean any. Now add full audio to it. Now you have what the Audya offers as standard.

You lost nothing that you've had before, but you gained very much. And with Cubase or Cakewalk or the likes, you can edit your midi styles to any drop down detail you want to.

Now, you choose whether you continue using midi styles alone, or whether you start including some audio in between your performances. You are not dictated by your arranger towards any specific method. And this is the beauty of it all that I want to highlight. You have both...

Not to worry, this concludes my contribution towards this thread. Ketron did not drop midi in favor of audio, instead they maintained midi & included audio with much, much more flexibility than i.e. on the S950.

All the best my friend,

Henni