hehe, I thought there was something fishy about those S950 audio drums.

Out of interest I asked Robert Messier how Ketron went about producing Audio Styles for the Audya. He said he would write some pieces of 'generic music' specifically written to inspire the drummer to produce all the arranger parts, fills and stuff he will need for the completed style.

Once in the studio, rather than asking for a few bars of a swing, bossa etc, the drummer wears haeadphones and plays along to the music. From there the drum track is split up into the relavent parts before the rest of the style is assembled.

He said they use different drummers for different styles, for instance the Swing drummer is an experienced (and mature) Big Band drummer.

They also have a few different Guitarists. The acoustic guitarist is a Guy named Toyo (at least thats how his name sounded) then there is another guitaris for rock and another for classical. These all have to record the audio guitar loops, which must be pretty challlenging.

It can cost up to $20,000 to develop a completely new style using this method. But of course there are alternatives for us at home.

And there, my friends, is the kiss of death for audio styles. You got to sell a LOT of styles (in an environment where there is no copy protection for them) to pay for a $20,000 style cost. Seriously... $20K for a style, several hundred styles in an arranger... who's going to do this, other than for the ROM styles (the sale of the arranger is what offsets the style development costs)..?

NEW styles are the lifeblood of an arranger. If all you get are the ROM styles and a few new ones every year or so, then have to sell it and get a new one just to have the latest big batch of ROM styles, sorry... just not interested.

Haha...I almost posted more information, but thought it would be fun to wait for you to post that

As you know very well now, this was covered in the other thread by AJ who explained it in some detail.

Roberts method is just how Ketron chose to do the styles, there is no reason why you couldn't use pre recorded drums loops from any source and use them with your own skills as a style writer - or even use converted styles and add your audio loops into the drums. This is the method I would have thought third party style houses would have used. I think they are just too lazy to be bothered with it when they can churn out 2 bar midi styles like there is no tomorrow.

Doesn't matter how many times you say Audio drums are dead they are absolutley here to stay just as much as CD's were back in the late 1980s. A large number of people just like you said they wouldn't catch on as you cant record on them I wonder, do you still use a Sony Walkman with a 90 minute cassete to record your music? :p

So where are all these audio styles? If production of them from audio loops is so easy, just where the heck are they all?

You've got one important issue about making commercial styles from loop libraries... Copyright. Most licenses for these libraries allow using them for music production, either commercial or personal. But most of the agreements don't allow you to use them in another commercial product for sale. So where does that leave style production? $20K a pop?

Sorry, but look at the market. Ketron is a niche product, virtually unavailable in the US (a tiny handful of dealers), and pretty much at the bottom of the totem pole compared to the Big 3. Yamaha are the ONLY other arranger company that have gone the audio loop route, and have hardly made a significant splash... The jury is definitely still out, as far as the vast majority of arranger users are concerned.

I wonder... do you still have your Betamax? I'm afraid the rest of us went with the (debatably inferior) VHS system.

Audio drums are dead the minute that arranger manufacturers increase the sample ROM to VSTi sizes, or allow SSD streaming of ROM (like Kronos's already do), and, as our shootout has shown, aren't so markedly superior that every disadvantage of them doesn't outweigh them. And that's just with today's tiny ROM size kits.

Tell you what. Outsell Yamaha, Korg or Roland, THEN tell me they are here to stay, OK? LOL

Diki, I will make one more post so as not to ignore you, but thats it, because you have totally made up your mind and its getting boring:

1) Henni, if your reading this...how many styles do you have on your Audya...roughly. But, Diki, as already mentioned, with Ketrons live styles (averaging 8 bars per arranger part) you don't need so many styles because you don't get bored with the same old repeating midi file. Its why ketron users don't need to change instruments every 18 months or so and why a 4 year old Audya is still worth more than twice as much as T3 (which was the same price when new.) and more than a used T4.

2) The stereotypical forum user often just ignores the bits they dont like. Many times now you have been told that we can use audio loops from just about anywhere (thats if as a user you want to edit or create styles), the live musicians route is the one Ketron went for, but as other manufacturers move to audio styles the 3rd party style houses will probably use audio loops for drums created from Virtual Drums instead of live musicians. And guess what...they can charge more for doing so.

3) WOW! talk about ancient technology...VHS + Betamax, they died with Midi styles 15 years ago!! I mostly use my tv providers catch up service but otherwise I have Hard Disk recording. I haven't even used the DVD/RW for 6 or 7 years.

4) SSD streaming of ROM? That phrase doesn't make any sense. Ketron already have HD (or SSD) streaming technology, the others will catch up when they decide to add live audio styles properly. And the shootout showed that it is possible to have nice quality Midi drums, but it is severely limited by the poor quality and lazy style writing of the manufacturer as you pointed out - its possible to make better styles but nobody is doing it.

5) Outsell Yamaha and Korg? Across Europe they might already outsell them, I don't know for sure as just about every bar and restaurant on the continent has a Ketron player in the corner (you never see Korg or Yamaha in those places). in the UK we are on a level footing with Korg but have an army of 'Tyros' (Novice or Beginner players) that buy Yamaha, it would be nice to outsell them here and we are noticing a big dissatisfaction from owners who are not seeing anything really new from the other manufacturers, but in the meantime Ketron owners can be very smug in the knowledge there keyboard is the best on the market.

So thats it, I respectfully withdraw from this discussion as I have said all there is to be said.

Hi all,

I think I have now more than 30 000 styles (thirty thousand styles). I think Diki has some personal gripe with Ketron, in any case, that's how I see his attitude. The more we tell him we've got both midi & audio, the more he critisizes Audio.

Heck, you can have an Audya and not touch an audio style if that's the way you feel. But I'm sure most will use the audio part of it as it's way more than only audio drums.

I find my Audya an extreme versatile arranger & I have never had a single regret for purchasing it, and yes, it cost me a lot of money, even though I bought it 2nd hand, but is was money well spent. I do not need any additional arranger to complement it, I have everything I need.

But yes, that's my personal take on it. We are all entitled to our opinions. I've motivated quite a few to buy Audyas and they all thanked me for doing so. I'm not aware of a single regret as yet...

Keep well all my friends,

Henni

Diki,
You've got a PM (not related to this though)...

What a load of deliberate misinformation and total evasion of every point I've made.

No amount of bars length of a swing style will help me if I need a Cajun style, or a Reggae style, or a Zydeco style, or any style of music you don't currently do. And sorry, but if I want to do a few dozen swing songs, I don't want to use the same styles for them.

SSD streaming of ROM? That's what the Kronos does (as well as streaming user content too). In other words, if you want to use a 2GB drum kit with 20+ velocity layers, you don't have to load the sampler (glacially) and wait until ready to go. And there goes any advantage of audio drums. As you seem to want to point out, audio style producers can use VSTi drum libraries to make styles (but they are just as uneditable once made), but how about having enough RAM, or streaming ROM, to be able to simply use the KIT that these guys are going to use to make the audio? Then you have all the control that MIDI styles currently do.

Sorry, but saying something MIGHT outsell the market leaders is a tacit admission they DON'T. They 'might' outsell Roland at TOTL arranger sales! Because Roland don't make one! Should have stuck to that!

In case you missed the point (doh!), the Betamax reference was an illustration that the market decides what is and isn't successful. Even though Betamax had a few technical advantages over VHS, the wider availability and practical usefulness of VHS (it came in sizes long enough to fit a movie on) consigned Beta to the scrap heap of innovation. All that non-audio arrangers need to doom audio arrangers is larger ROM and streaming from SSD's, so that VSTi quality drums can be played by MIDI. The Kronos already has that, and it won't be too long before the concept trickles down. Then, we will have drum parts as good as any audio loop, but with all the control we currently enjoy.

I'm sorry, but you may have hit the perfect description of Ketron users (or sellers!).... smug. Despite all evidence, despite every disadvantage being pointed out, you prefer to dismiss any of our VERY legitimate needs as unnecessary. Far from it. Maybe if you stop making style tailored to EU bar musicians, they might get more popular over here. But when you make audio styles that don't reflect the US tastes and styles (trust me, stick an EU 'bar and restaurant' player in a bar over here, he's not going to last long!), when you barely support your product on our continent, where you may have to drive 1000 miles just to SEE one in a store, how you can be smug beats me.

Maybe you HAVE made the perfect product for a European bar musician..! Maybe if I was one, I'd be interested. But I'm not...

As I said thats it for me. It is absolutely fine that you like midi styles so much - lets shake hands and wait and see where the manufacturers decide to go next eh?

But do some research on "ROM" streaming, you 'might' find it in the same section of your technical handbook as Trillium-carbonic alloy...it makes absolutely no sense at all :-/ The point of Hard disk streaming (either Solid State or Platter) is to do away with preloading into system ram...which is why Audya does not need vast ammounts of user ram, (it actually doesn't need any user ram unless you use sampled sounds). What you describe as "streaming" (not an acurate description) the kits from rom is the current method that everyone uses and has been doing so since the early 1980s.

Perhaps you might like to take a look closer at the Kronos..?

Perhaps ROM and RAM are slightly archaic terms, but basically, ROM tends to get used semantically as the Factory samples, and RAM as user stuff. But rapid streaming of samples from the HD rather than pre-loading them into user RAM kind of makes the two differences moot. I know all about ROM and RAM as computer terms, and am well aware of the differences they USED to have.

The Kronos makes that moot, though. You don't need RAM at all, as the SSD is fast enough to deliver content as fast as a ROM chip can. The difference between this and your Audya, for instance, is that the total ROM for the entire soundset in an Audya is probably less than the data used for JUST the grand piano (well over a GB!) in a Kronos. But it still resides on an SSD, not burned into a chip. There IS RAM on a Kronos, in addition to what the SSD streams, but, unlike your example of what has been happening since the early 80's, what the Kronos does is utterly different. Maybe it's not a trillium-carbonic alloy, but it IS reality...

Enjoy the semantics of the whole thing, and yes... consider that a bet. Personally, when the Kronos has shown that ROM size limits on burned chips has been removed as a barrier to sample sizes that keyboards can practically use, the limited benefits of audio loops has disappeared. An arranger, based on the Kronos engine will not need audio loops (although it will be able to use them). It will have MIDI kits completely indistinguishable from reality. And every benefit we gain on even the limited size ones we have now (that are pretty darn good despite the size limit) will then apply to utterly realistic kits.

Then, cost of production of styles will return to the sensible levels they are now for MIDI based arrangers, and the thought that styles used to cost up to $20K to produce EACH will be simply a joke told about redundant technology.

In the meantime, enjoy your Betamax. I'm off to turn some of my rock styles into acoustic ones!

Being an owner of the Roland G-70 and Audya 4 Module, I
just wanna say how much I love my Audya
I guess enough to buy another Audya, The Audya 5. Yes 2 Audyas

I'm not interested in PA3X or Tyros 4, as I've played them, and in my opinion, don't even come close.
Play the Audya live with a Real PA next to the others BIG 3 and see how SMALL they really are and, then come back here and post your opinion
But to each his own, This is my opinion...

Goto EBay and try to buy a used Audya , you can't . Why.?
Cuz whoever has Em keeps them
Now goto eBay and try to search and buy Pa3x or Tyros. Grab a cup of coffee.

Enough said

Disk streaming was first introduced in the late 90s with the advent of the Giga sampler software, and it solved the problem of having to load large samples into memory.

How did it work: let’s look at the storage systems?

RAM: Allows virtually instant access to samples but is expensive, therefore it was not practical to have enough Ram to have all the large sample instruments you needed.

HDD: Has massive storage and can easily store massive samples; however access is slow therefore totally impractical for playing live. (Latency is an understatement)

GIGA Technology:

Loads part of the large samples into Ram, and marks where the rest of the samples are on the HDD, then when you press the keys, the part in Ram plays first giving time for the rest of the sample to load into Ram from the HDD. (As this is happening constantly it is called streaming)

The technique has been refined by many manufactures since the original GIGA Sampler, and really is a great and cheap way to get high quality sounds.

NOTE: The streaming technology used in Audya is roughly equivalent to the streaming technology that was available about 10 years ago, so contrary to what Ketron say it is not anything special or ground breaking. (Any of the current hardware arrangers could do what the Audya does, and if the demand was there it would be added, and I suspect the S950 is just testing the water to see if it’s viable)

Also if Korg added the PA3x Arranger section to their Kronos, (Which is essentially a Pre-set VSTi Player (And what the Lionstracs Media station could have been) with a user friendly interface) Audya would become obsolete overnight, so keep your fingers crossed that it doesn’t catch on.

Bill

And Audya ONLY streams the audio loops for drum parts... It will not, for instance, allow you to put a GB sized piano sample set on the HD and stream it as if it were in ROM.

Look, don't get me wrong. At the current point in technology, yes, you can get an improvement in your drum parts, guitar parts and bass parts by using loops. BUT.... the price you pay is either like 'em, or lump 'em. Nothing you can do with them whatsoever. ROM, if ever I heard it!

However, this streaming technology is on the near horizon. A hardware WS already has it. Many will follow (the advantages are huge). And this will make every slight improvement that audio loops currently have a thing of the past. With none of the loops' disadvantages.

In the meantime, with new styles costing up to $20K a pop, you'd better LOVE what comes with your Audya, because you can't gussy your old styles up to match the audio ones (without using the same parts that the audio ROM styles already do, kind of defeating the point!) and you can't make your own very easily, what few 3rd party ones are out there are aimed squarely at those EU bar players (or Baltic entertainers!) and have little relevance over here, and no-one's going to roll out new styles at any decent rate at $20K a pop.

Audya is Betamax, and MIDI arrangers are VHS. Which turned into SuperVHS, which turned into 8mm, which turned into HD camcorders, which have turned into today's card-based camcorders.

Anyway, yes. This whole thing is getting silly.... Let's revisit this in 5 years' time, and see how many fully audio arrangers are in the market. And how many are still MIDI (or MIDI primarily, with some audio loop capability). I can't wait!

tonewheel.....thanks for posting all that information. It was a really interesting read. I've often wondered how they put styles together, etc.

But, I think instead of spending this time and money on forever creating new styles of basic rhythms, they should sell us the machine with basic styles for each dance (Fox Trot, Rhumba, Swing,Disco, etc) and a mega-tutorial on how to put our own styles together. Then we would each have what drives us, motivates us,individually in our playing.

I think, in the never-ending effort to create new styles for new machines, many of these "variations" of basic dance styles these last few years have become almost "bubble gum" like.....plain silly....like something out of a Bugs Bunny cartoon.

It's like taking Beethoven's Fifth and trying to make it sound better with each generation of interpretation. It can't be done, and shouldn't be done. To me the best Fox Trot or the best Latin, to the best Disco, etc is the basic one. What you add to it musically, with your playing, is what makes it sound attractive.

Maybe if the companies did that (showed us how to make our own styles), with the money saved in production, they could then cut the arranger prices in half. I wouldn't object to that. Do your own work, compose your own rhythms, make the styles YOU like, no time wasted in chasing down styles from here, there and everywhere, and......having money left over from your keyboard purchase to buy a full tank of gas!

Hi Mark, THANKYOU!!! yours is possibly one of the most sensible posts made on this subject for some time.

When there is a little more time i'll explain more about how the Audy'a "Audio Style Modeling" functions. That probably would be better in another thread though.

I'm happy for you both... but if I hire a real drummer, and he plays two song's identically, he's not getting hired back!

No two Rhumba's, bossa's, disco tunes, rock tunes, you name it... no two are EVER identical. Listen to CD's much? Find me two songs where the drummer plays an identical beat... let alone the guitarist and bassist, and horn players too. Subtle differences are what make the tune stand out. An 8 bar loop or 16 bar loop of basically the same rhythm doesn't make up for it being the same rhythm.

Plus, the fills... This isn't something we've really discussed. But, quite often, the fills are what sticks in the mind, maybe more than the groove itself. Play three or four songs with the same style (or another style with the drums from the first grafted on) and pretty soon, you can glom onto the fact that those fills are the same every time. EVERY TIME!

It's pretty easy with a MIDI style to get into the fills, and move a note here, a note there, and you have a different fill. Or to copy another fill from a similar style, and then match the kits (can't do that with audio styles unless recorded on the same kit).

If Ketron want to do something that would push arranger technology further, how about more fills..? You need 16 to go smoothly from every one of four variations to every other one of four (including Fill-to-Same). You already made a dramatic improvement by having four Break/Fills. How about upping the stakes on the fill count?

The one big advantage that MIDI gives you is variety. Not only is there a huge backlog of DIFFERENT styles written for your arranger in the same genre, to be tweaked to match your newest, but there are thousands of conversions, from OTHER manufacturers, that you can do the same with.

Instead of two reggae beats, I have dozens. Can't do that with audio...

I hope Yamaha is reading this before they send R&D on a new project to intensify Audio production in their new models after all this talk pro & con and it has opened their eyes....or is it on DEAF ears and probably T5, T6, S960 etc, is already in the works for release with reckless abandon? is this where we're headed for arrangers?

we get it Diki
MIDI is better than REAL AUDIO

you want more variety and editability with sound inferiority
i want less variety and editability with sound superiority
to each his own...

now back to drooling my new Audya 5

Sonically, it's close. Not there yet, but soon.

Editing wise, well, there IS no editing audio styles!

Don't get me wrong... I'd love an Audya. I wouldn't buy one, though! Sub-$1000 arrangers are giving it a run for it's money (guarantee the audience don't care!), and the additional $2000+ I'd save goes a long way!

Spare one of your for me to try for a while (I got 1000 miles to drive to hear an Audya in a store!)? LOL

"Editing wise, well, there IS no editing audio styles!"

couldn't be a more INNACURATE statement

maybe not for you or others,
but i can edit any audio drum loop via ProTools, Logic, Ableton, etc.
i can add fills to an existing audio loop (multitrack)
Audio is editable, NOT as much as midi as far as moving notes, pitch, etc, but it's editable

so there IS some editing of audio styles

"Sub-$1000 arrangers are giving it a run for it's money (guarantee the audience don't care!), and the additional $2000+ I'd save goes a long way!"

Diki, no offense, but what world do you live in?
which $1000 arranger is this you are talking about?

the audience don't care?
what audience are you playing for?
perhaps if you are referring to nursing home gig? (no offense to those senior citizens in one)

my audience, mostly weddings, who pay top $$, expect the very BEST, and that included music and overall sound,
and no $1,000 will give that to them, how do I know?
cuz i've played those $1,000 arrangers you may be referring to.

bottom line: you get what you pay for, and nothing more...

Perhaps you've been in a cave this whole thread, Lee, but some of those BK loops sound just fine. Those come in under $1000...

And sorry, but ProTools? Really? To get a bit of variety in a fill, you have to export the loop to ProTools, chop it into its component parts, reassemble, cross fade all the edits, hope there's no phasiness, reimport it into a custom style and save the style as a custom one?

My audience doesn't give a toss whether it's a $4000 Audya or a $1000 Roland. If they go home happy, that keyboard (and I!) did its job. I don't do NH gigs (thanks for ignoring all the times I've mentioned that) and have done plenty of weddings.

Maybe you NEED all that... me, I'm capable of doing the job with most things.

Look, I get it. You LOVE your Audya. But it doesn't change the FACTS about how inflexible they are. I'm getting REALLY tired of being told that assembling styles out of all the parts of other styles makes a NEW style. Or that to alter one fill, you have to ReCycle the original loop and create a new fill to be re-imported (love to hear some of that!). No amount of partisanship can alter just how inflexible audio loop use is, nor how few styles there are for it. Be honest, Lee. Just how many ORIGINAL styles for the Audya have you made? Or are you content with the factory styles, and have done with it?

Dismissing midi instrument sounds..is plain foolish..

Midi is the input of the data...not the sounds...it triggers (data) that creates sounds...sounds that are actual samples...a sample that is not unlike a loop...it is a recording of the named instrument...
The recording of samples may vary..The complex multi sampled sounds (layered velocity), creates a pallette that is very editable via on board tools on modern keyboards..

These top sampled tones measure up well with audio loops..and a big plus because you can work them..

Just listen to Roland SRX sounds and also the newer sound boards..they rival the current audio loops..

And yes..you have many of these quality samples on $1,000 keyboards..

It is a given..the Audya line sounds great...but make no mistake it has some not so great sounds too...and the vast majority of our audience couldn't tell the difference between the BK and Audya....What you play and what sound system dictates the appeal..

I was not going to comment again about this as its getting tiresome but...

Sorry Fran, this is just not true. Granted, they don't consciously know why they like one better then the other but they absolutely do respond to better audio quality

I used to get the same thing when I worked for Hammond (and now KeyB), people would justify their use of third rate clones or patches by saying the same thing as you. But I was witnessing first hand audience reaction between the two. Its exactly the same with audio styles - you ask any pro player who has brought an Audya what happened the first few nights of owning it. (thats if they have a decent full range PA - which sadly quite a few do not)

Yep - Roland Drum samples (except the exhaling brushes) are very good indeed - and personally I think they are the best - they certainly leave Yamaha's dated stuff standing, but the human ear is ultra sensitive when it comes to mechanical repetition. I cant stand listening to midi generated styles when we do the big exhibitions any more and don't even bother going to the concerts now.

Unless you, Diki or anyone else actually uses, or attends a live event where Audya is being used you are simply not going to get it - its not your fault...but no amount of justifying or rationalising can replace an audiences judgement.

Ask Nightlife about audience reaction, he uses Yamaha, Korg and Ketron so is probably the only one here who can give you an impartial opinion based on fact.

by the way I wanted to thank Diki...it made for a few interesting days posting. Its been clean - no personal insults like we used to se on SZ from certain members..just a good swapping of oppinions. Thanks


ooh one thing...VHS won because porn was freely available even though Betamax was better (Sony didn't like Porn). So if midi styles win out over Real Audio its because of a weird fettish for MIDI STYLE PORN

I have owned most of the Rolands, most of the Yamahas, several Ketrons, including Audya and Korg PA3x. I can use any of them just fine.
Drum and bass-wise, I would rate them Audya, BK7m, PA3x, PSR950.
When it comes to lead sounds it's a little different. Yamaha, Audya, BK7m, PA3x, more or less in that order. It's nothing etched in stone as everyone's taste is different.
Control-wise, Audya and PA3x are really close, with all the buttons, sliders, pedals, etc. The others lag behind.
They are all great. As T.G. Shepherd said: "Big, little or short or tall, wish could have kept 'em all, MMMM I loved them every one!"
DonM

Sorry to disagree, TWD, but Fran is right. In fact, DonM and I were talking this morning and one of the things that came up is that in all the years that we've both been performing in front of various audiences, no one ever comes up to you and says "Wow! I love the way that keyboard sounds." And, the only person that would come up and comment about the keyboard would be another musician/entertainer. And, they would NEVER say "Those drums sound like $hit! You shoulda bought a different brand."

Our audiences want to be entertained - period! They could care less what brand of keyboard you use, they couldn't tell you if the keyboard has live sounding anything. What they want is good players, good singers, and if you're a mediocre player, but a great singer/entertainer, they'll hire you again and again, and again. If you're a great player, and have the best arranger keyboard on the planet, but can't sing a lick, you're not likely to be working as an OMB entertainer very much, or very long.

And, like DonM, I've owned lots of keyboards, Yamaha, Roland, Korg and a few others. Also, like DonM, I loved each and every one of them. I thought they were all fantastic, and each time I purchased a new one I thought it was better than the previous model. Additionally, I was able to make a living with each and every one of them. But the feature that continues to make me the most money cannot be found in the keyboard - it's my vocals and my ability to entertain my audiences. If and when I lose both of those features I'm out of business - even if I own the best arranger keyboard on the planet.

Good Luck,

Gary

Gary ... that's interesting, because I actually HAVE had people come up and say they loved the way the keyboard sounds ... I find it hard to believe that nNO ONE has ever said something like "you have a really nice sound" ... now, your voice is a good part of that, but so is the keyboard ...

Diki
you ask how many original styles i have made?
let's just say i use about 25% of the Audyas Internal Styles

the other 75% are mostly mine, CUSTOM, yes with MY audio grooves
does that answer your question?

Nitelife is not the only one who can give an impartial opinion.
I can too.
I have used ALL, I say ALL other arrangers, the other top 3

And all i have to say, the proof is on the Dancefloor
SAME styles, SAME croud, SAME event,
AUDYA packs my dancefloor twice as much as ANY Arranger.

I am not saying this in any way to degrade YOUR favorite arranger.
Just stating the FACTS as i SEE them, and HEAR them.

This is in no way to persuade anyone to convert to the Audya

I just wish those "non-believers", would actually stop talking sh@& and take an AUDYA out on a gig, with a REAL PA.
Then come back here and re-post. That's all...

but as i've said... to each his own, even if it's that awesome $1,000 Roland.
maybe it's even better than my 2nd choice $4,000 G-70

i LOVE this forum

??

Heard enough Ketron demos here. It's rubbish to say you need to be there in person. Or would my saying that you need to hear a BK or a G70 in person before you judge it make any difference? And am I not an audience?

There are some great styles in an Audya. There are some naff ones too. There are some great styles in a BK-7m or G70. Some not so good, too. There are RH sounds that are splendid in an Audya. And some that aren't. Same with the BK's.

Sorry, but unless you've heard my audience's reaction to the G70, perhaps you aren't going to get it? Bottom line... it's got virtually nothing to do with the gear, and 99% to do with the player. If you can't get a good audience reaction from a Roland or a Korg, or a Yamaha, perhaps it's the player?

The only way to find out if any arranger suits what you want is to try it yourself, forget MP3 or YouTube demos as in most cases they have little in common with the real deal, hence you find EBay is littered with new arrangers that have been sold on because they did not match the demos, or on the other side, users of arrangers cannot understand why others find certain models lack lustre (Usually after hearing MP3 or YouTube demos) when it does everything and more they could ever wish for.

Yes it’s perfectly acceptable to comment on MP3 and YouTube demos, so long as you remember you are commenting on the demo, NOT the real instrument.

You wouldn’t buy a quality audio system without hearing and trying it first hand, and an arranger is no different.

As to which is better (Audio or Midi) then both have advantages and disadvantages, which is why in professional studios and film production they use both, so forget about my Audio is better than your Midi (And vice versa) and just enjoy what suits you.

Bill

John

Sorry Bill... not true. Most of us listen to music through the internet. Streaming audio sounds just fine. IF... it is recorded and encoded well.

Most of us have our entire iTunes collection encoded at bitrates not much better than a decent web demo. Sure, use a smartphone's built in mic in a noisy NAMM hall, and it's going to sound like dog doo. But record to MP3 direct from the jacks, and you have the same audio quality as a decent rip of your favorite Reginald Dixon CD!

All my computer audio gets routed through my Mackie reference nearfields, so the speaker isn't an issue. And, I can assure you, a decently recorded MP3 of a G70 sounds EXACTLY like the G70 that is hooked up directly to those speakers.

No, I wouldn't buy an arranger without playing it first. But it has nothing to do with the audio. It is about where the buttons are, how the keybed feels, how easy is the display to see, stuff like that.

Sorry, but seeing a Wersi in person, after listening to high quality recordings of it, is not going to make me change my opinion one iota!

Hi Diki

Only ever use lossless formats for my own use, (Usually FLAC) with MP3 being used for forum posts as not everybody has the FLAC Codec installed, plus the file sizes are smaller.

Not sure what Reginald Dixon and Wersi have got to do with anything.

ITunes (And other similar) I avoid like the plague as it ties you in to their way of doing things. (My pet hate)

Bill

Try doing some double blind comparisons, Bill. I'm afraid that you will be amazed at how you can't tell the difference. I routinely encode at 256kbps, and other than classical stuff and stuff with huge dynamic range (which rules out ANY popular music these days!) with my 50+ year old ears, I am hard pressed to tell the difference.

Certainly, the almost imperceptible difference is not enough to justify buying a keyboard if the MP3's didn't impress.

The next time I hear a Wersi user demo that doesn't remind me of Reginald Dixon, I'll let you know! Now maybe they don't ALL sound like you are in Blackpool, but it sure seems like MOST of them do! Let's face it... Wersi players, on the whole, came through Wersi organ routes. It's the style, it's the washed out fast leslie organ lines slathered on everything, it's the sound of the holiday camp and the working men's club. Nothing WRONG with that, just sayin'!

Wersi arrangers, from what we tend to hear, seem to end up in the hands of people that would prefer a Scala! And would like to be heard rising up out of the stage floor! Of course, you COULD make any kind of music with them. Oddly enough, though, Blackpool always comes to mind when I hear the vast majority of Wersi stuff posted.

Now, I imagine you are going to go off and post a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with the theater organ. But it's not going to make up for the vast majority that do!

HI Diki

I and many others can easily hear the difference on my audio/cinema system at home, however it is a mix and match setup, not a one box setup that you get from Asda (Wall Mart).

I agree about a lot of the Wersi posts seeming to be more organ based (Even though none of them sound anywhere close to a theatre organ) however they are being played on an organ,(So not too surprising) and not the Pegasus Wing Arranger. (You will also find that over here the theatre sound packs for the Yamaha and Korg arrangers are a highly popular purchase)

The above confirms though, that the only way to see if an instrument suits is to try it for yourself, as only then will you know if it can sound and do as you want.

Bill

It's a long time past the old 96kbps or 128kbps MP3's, Bill.

Yes, there is a TINY difference between the original and an MP3, especially once you get up to those 256+kbps ones. But, so utterly unimportant as to make moot the need to hear an arranger in person before you can tell what it SOUNDS like.

Hi Diki

You’re missing the point, you will not know how an arranger sounds until you try it for yourself, with your type of music, this is why a lot of the US market don’t get European demos, as they are not setup and played in the style that US audiences are used to. (The big 3 on the other hand are worldwide so they setup and demo to suit each individual market)

Bill

It's got to have my kind of styles in it before I can do 'my' music. Last time I heard a Wersi do a New Orleans groove was.... never!

I'm pretty sure that means there aren't any!

Dixieland don't count... I'm talking Second Line, N.O. Funk, the cool stuff! Meters, Nevilles, Professor Longhair, Dr. John.

Find me some of that...

Hi Diki

What arranger has those kind of styles as standard, its certainly not the G70/E80 as I have all of their factory styles.

Bill

No... Mind you, I've got some legacy funk stuff that does the job.