BK9 on the way at Music Messe....good play by Roland to wait after namm and xmas so they will be alone in their release which in turn shines the spotlight on this new TOTL 76 key? version with more features.....G70 who?

Call me stupid, but I was REALLY expecting a DEMO video ...

"In due time grasshopper"...........

Me to Tony.
Deane

arranger or workstation?

"BK" 9 = backing Keyboard

BK-5 with 76 keys and some sliders...

Maybe Roland can reintroduce some of the great features lost in the transition from G70 to the BK series, but I have my doubts.

This is barely what you could call TOTL... MOTL is where it probably sits, at best. Not that there IS a TOTL Roland any more, and this won't be it. Even the keybed is the MOTL one.

G70 is still the zenith of Roland arranger quality...

Did you get my PM btw Diki?

D

Diki and Dennis (miden),
Why do you think the keybed is the same as the one on BK-5? In the video the keys appear longer and differently shaped. Also, the video teases that there will be some kind of on-board Vocal Harmony. Something Fran reported at roland-arranger.com suggests that there will be provisions for score display. From the BK-7m you have to figure on FC-7 input, as well as the ability to turn on & off UP1 and UP2 voices, Manual Bass. Plus the mastering tools from BK series that were never present on G-70. The BK-5 has a fully-featured rhythm composer (on-board style creation) and Makeup Tools. The menu parameters are pretty deep. What's left from the G-70 that this lacks?

Videos are prepared, airbrushed and angled to present the best possible perception to the end viewer. That is all I will say. The other things you mentioned are already on the BK5 ...hence this one, by the look of things, and going by the way Roland have released over the past few years....well, it is a pretty safe bet to say it is a bk5 with 76 keys and a couple of other things.

I would suggest that the keybed will not match the G70 ( which by the way is the same one used on the A-70 Controller )

Score display is a relatively useless feature (it doesn't display very good charts)... .PDF display is FAR more useful. The BK-5 has a rudimentary picture display capability (jpeg only), but the OS can't link pictures to Performances. Plus no page turning, anything like that. It was designed more as a way to display pretty pictures while you play, which simply goes to show how completely out of touch Roland have become with what PLAYERS actually need...

The BK-7m, because of the remote module nature of it, is DESIGNED to be pretty hands-off... hence much of the control goes to an FC-7. But the BK-5 has no problems selecting UPR 1&2 parts... (to be on a par with the G70, it would need a Man Bass, 2 LWR parts and 3 UPR parts... something I doubt it will have).

The BK-5's Mastering Tools look identical to the G70's... It doesn't even have the separate Mastering Tools section for SMF/Style side and Keyboard Parts, which the E80 had.

For the BK-9 to have a significant improvement over the BK-5, it needs a MIDI Recorder and sequencer (currently, there is NO provision for any onboard MIDI recording on any of the BK series), and it needs a TON more buttons. My G70 has 133 buttons, 9 sliders, 7 knobs. The BK-5 has 46 buttons, and one knob. That's a LOT of important functions buried in menus.

The return of the Mark/Jump SMF feature will be important (missing from current BK's), a D-Beam will be needed, and multiple out's (4 for the arranger, and two more for the VH and effects) for it to compare to the G70. And sorry, but unless the screens are touch screens, navigation is FAR more complicated than the G/E series.

A full VK organ section, with live drawbars and proper percussion and foldback for the drawbars will be necessary to match the G70, plus at least one SRX slot... (E80 had 2)

And yes, to my eyes, that keybed looks EXACTLY like the BK-5's, only camera angles and perspective might lead you to think otherwise. I expect the keybed from the Juno Stage will be used. A pale shadow of how good the G70's action is.

One of the things that disappoints me is the dropping of the touch screens. No better way to control a huge variety of functions in a limited amount of space exists, and previously managed to employ them (albeit monochromatically, but color touch-screen prices have tumbled lately) and afford to put them in their affordable E50 and E60. Stepping away from touchscreens is a HUGE step backwards, IMO.

As I said, a MOTL. Still no TOTL...

And yes, got the msg, Dennis. Reply is up.

What I don't understand is why did they choose one of the worst samples that Roland have in the sound pallet to introduce them 'back'...the plastic organ sound?

In an effort not to be called as James Cagney quote "You dirty rat"...by my inside contact

I was told 2 years ago that Roland's next 76 model would most likely be the Juno Stage keybed...

Why not just wait and see....all this rumored speculation means nothing....it wont be long.

I wonder how many times Roland can invent the wheel? same ol
too bad, such a good company reputation.

This place would be a much quieter one without all the 'rumored speculation'!

Got to give it to Roland at least for "secrecy"

Guess you forgot about the T4 'unveil'..?

I didn't want to open new post.


http://youtu.be/Aq04I2NsBm4

OK... some Super Natural sounds from the Super Jupiter?

The plot thickens. Roland are doing SA voices. Who knows? Maybe one day they'll wake up and realize that Multipads are a good idea, and (shock, horror!) that the CS is pretty useful too!

He murdered "Careless Whisper". BTW the style he used exists on the G70, seems unchanged.
Sounds like Dutch, if I'm right maybe John Smies can help us to translate what he says...

He said:

Hundreds of new styles, a dual display, drawbars, 1700 sounds including super natural sounds, and this is the new super natural Jazz Guitar. Further in the video he tells about the super natural sounds and show how they work by using the pitch bender, assignable switches and the keys.

Very interesting arranger.

Apparently..they only had a flashlight...

Yes not very clear image

another piece to the puzzle ...
if Fran sells his G70 and gets the NEW BK9....I'd be excited..

That video was removed from YouTube....Roland pressure?

too late it's worldwide now, if they wanted secrecy they shouldn't of demoed it ANYWHERE..

This is what you will get with the BK9..

A Juno Stage keybed..
Sound bank from the Jupiter50..
VE series vocal processor..
Independent screens from the BK5..


Most likely they will add..a Drawbar organ (VK) with sliders..
Chord sequencer..
16 track sequencer besides the 8 track style composer..

Benefits will be the mic input with effects and harmony..
76 keys with semi weighted keybed..
The great playback ability of the BK series..

This could be the ideal all in one lightweight keyboard..that many desire..and probally under 22 pounds...
Maybe a street price under 2 G's...(well under).

No...it will not be the replacement for the G70...but most likely a stablemate..

Well I disagree Fran, sorry - but I believe that info is not quite correct

I cannot say why.

Roland embarrassment?

Sorry Lads this is no Ketron Audya

It will all depend on price.

If they get this right then it could be a masterstroke.

Bill

Just when I thought I was all set they pull me back in . I WANT ONE !!! (or two)

Bill get in line behind Fran....

ROLAND BK9 Picture

A little better

Hi Dreamer, long time no see!...

Very Interested...

But why 2 tiny display screens versus 1 larger sized display???

Two modes screens operating at once?

The right hand screen looks like it has a music score displaying?

Yes I agree. The screens are more of a novelty at that size - much the same as the mouse/keyboard (qwerty) input on the G series Fantom...

They would have been FAR better served by including the G Series huge colour touchscreen....now THAT may have been worth the price of admission by itself and the cost (apart from the case needing to be a tad bigger), would not have been that great as this screen has been on the G for a few years now.

At least it has 76 keys for those that need it..keybed could be from the Juno Stage 76 (which I liked) but, didn't sell all that well,...good way to get rid of old surplus ....other then that in just a few weeks we will know all about it.
Anyone pre-order yet?

Same keybed as the BK-5/GW8/Prelude just with 76 notes

One of the few advantages Roland has over Yamaha is the better iPad integration with their instruments. In that case, the need for a large display on the instrument itself is less indispensable for a 'top' arranger.

Roland use FATAR keyframes as do most manufacturers (except Yamaha). But fatar have different models of key frames and the software also makes a difference to the feel.

not always

You ARE kidding, right?

Hi Adi,
nice to see you as well.

So how does the BK3, BK5 and BK7M sound in comparison? Anybody know?

I have a Bk-5 and find it a great 2nd keyboard to my Tyros 4 as a old G70 guy I am excited to see what this thing is gonna be I feel if they Improve the organ offering and more Piano choices at 76 keys it will be a winner I have a RD 700nx if it is what i think it is it will be up for sale.

Dennis, I believe all three of these models have different keybeds...

For sure the Prelude and BK5 are different..(I still have both..The Prelude belongs to the band)..and if the GW8 is like the GW7 (I did own)...it is also different (more like the JunoG)..I disliked the Juno G keybed (I also owned that board)..

Also TW...In past years Roland designed and manufactured their own keybeds..

Korg and MediaStation are Fatar beds...Yamaha , I believe are made by "Mattel"

On a slightly mroe serious note Gw8 and Prelude are the same....the new one has a 76 note BK5 keybed.

Rolandconnect.com has a new part 2 video on the BK-9!
S1,S2,S3 AND S4 buttons above the pitchbend lever.
SuperNatural Logo on Keyboard.
Interesting.

Yes with a CS - now called a Chord Loop!!! two buttons too! Korg take ntoe.

Old technic in a new box, this isn't the successor of the G70/E80 .
Just middle class, no league for Yamaha .

Impuls

Features make the league, not the price. A CS will definitely put it head and shoulders above any Yamaha. You have no idea how useful this one feature is until you have tried it.

76 keys also puts it in a different league to Yamaha.

Been looking at new video: http://youtu.be/J4ycXbFol58

You know, 'Chord Loop' might not be a proper Chord Sequencer... Roland have an audio 'looper' on their new VR-09 synth. Let's hope they haven't ported that to the BK-9.

In case you want to know why an audio looper would be of limited use: A proper CS only records the CHORDS... what variation and where the fills are (even the style or Performance) is still totally under your live control while the CS plays. An audio looper records the loop, and that's IT... Can't do a damn thing to it.

I know which I'll prefer..!

It would be great if we could get a manual....

I note that on the VR-09 it is just tagged "Looper" and has one button only and is only for the drums- I suspect the one on the BK will be midi based...just a hunch though...

The looper on the VR-09 is a full audio looper with sound on sound... listen to some of the demos...

Just to avoid misunderstanding:

Keyboard is the same as JP50 and JunoStage.. regular size but no Aftertouch

Chord loop is MIDI CS, coming from older series with some improvements..

but some days and all will be clear
P.

Looks like I may be right on the money...with my description

Don't you think in technology alone its years ahead of the older G70 ?

Only the Media Player.....other than that ..what is there to improve on?

I hope not,... that's not saying much in the improvement department for Roland after all these years since the G70 was released?.

Haven't heard word one about any Mark/Jump capabilities yet. For those of us that use SMF's as well as arranger mode, the loss of this amazingly useful function is crippling.

Maybe I have found a new crusade, now that my pleas for the return of the CS have finally shown fruit..?!

Hopefully, it won't take another 8 YEARS of pointing out the obvious before Roland come to their senses! Particularly as Korg and Yamaha (I think) already have the Mark/Jump features already.

And, for anyone from Roland reading this and going 'It will take money to add the buttons for Mark/Jump to an arranger', may I point out...

THERE IS NO USE FOR THE VARIATION BUTTONS DURING SMF PLAYBACK.

Use THEM for four Markers while the arranger is in SMF play mode.

It's NOT rocket science, guys!

Diki ... why are YOU not working for a KB manufacturer?!? ... this use for the variation buttons is excellent ...

Ah but that would be copying another manufacture that uses this feature and beyond. (So probably not unique enough as every manufacture try’s to be different)

Bill

Every manufacturer has Stop Start and Fill buttons too. There's no patent on how you make double duty of arranger buttons. Doesn't seem like there's much in the way of any patents at all, as Korg lifted the Chord Sequencer from Roland, or the way that multi-pad ideas spread...

And no-one has ASKED me to help with arranger design. Be happy to if asked!

Why would you think that?

If the "old" G70 was just released as is..it would still more than compete with the competition..It only lacks the media player...It still outshines the rest in stage friendliness, touch screen functions, make up tools, and the best sequencer...on top of that a harmonizer that I would not trade for any TC Helicon on board offering...and the drawbar organ...

Added up...like I said wht is there to improve on

Well I guess your right Fran.....accolades to Roland for producing something that truly can last the test of time.
Personally I think Roland has the most "NATURAL" "REALISTIC" sounds out of ANY unit on the market,.....this E50 I've been playing this week is a wake up call to how good Roland sounds are.
I forgot all this, but it certainly brought back good thoughts from my G1000, G70, E50, E60 days.......

Basically, a G70 with the BK-9's CS, new sounds and new features would still be the top dog of pro arrangers...

And the hell with the weight.

Apart from the drawbar organ .... to the rest

LOL, Dennis... you missing the Makeup Tools while you struggle with style and sequence editing in the PA3x?

But ADD what's new from the BK-9 to the G70, you have one hell of an arranger.

Yep, no sampler. What percentage of arranger players outside the Middle East uses one, anyway?

Yes, no multi-pads (but maybe some sync'd audio loops).

At the price point of the BK-9, only the Korg comes close. At the price of formidable complexity. Sonically, we've already heard much praise for the BK's drum and bass sound, and its styles. This arranger adds another 600 sounds to the BK's list. Should be interesting. And another bunch of styles.

My interest has been piqued...

Never struggled with the sequencer and style tools EVER Especially 32 bars of variation content

And the PA series can do things that Roland owners can only dream about and complexity of keyboards is a VERY subjective thing as well you know!

As for the BK9, well, my interest has waned significantly. I am still reserving judgement until the manual appears..but at the price point (which is significantly higher than those here are assuming) it is not in my sights at all.
Pricing can not be based soley on exchange rates, as Roland adopted some time back, a worldwide pricing policy, that does not use exchange rates at all, rather they are formulas based on the country of destination, and to allow the same profit margins to ALL dealers worldwide. So it is all weighted.

In Australia for example, the BK9 will retail at between $2800-3000. And with the worldwide pricing policy there is far less "wiggle room" for dealers, so the best "street will be around $2500-2600.

And add to all, that the Juno Stage keybed - which apart from slightly longer keys, carries the same spring action and travel of the GW8 - which was awful to play piano on, and the BK will be just the same.

Nah, this is one for the Roland tragics I think

That is a very stretched statement!
I agree Roland can sound good (G70 and E80) but E50 is not really a prove of that. Not at all. But that is just my ears and I might be wrong.

I had hopes for BK9, but the lack of a vocal harmonizer (?) and the price possibly going over 2000 euro - no competition for the coming PA900 I'm afraid.

We'll see what future holds...

It's got a VH...

I doubt the PA900 will come in a 76, though.

Well, it would make perfect sense to have a VH, I just did not get it from that list and I would consider it an important enough feature to be there. But anyway, we'll soon know for sure.
You're right about the 76 keys though. But that is about the only thing over Korg. And it is for a minority.

It has a mic input (as well s +48v) which can be routed through effects and then mixed to the main outs, but no harmoniser afaik.

OK...

One less fake thing that fools no-one, I guess!

Pretty good idea to put mike in capabilities and some effects without adding a silly VH that doesn't come close to a standalone unit. TBH, I have no idea why, if anyone wants good sounding harmonies, they use an arranger VH. Even the best of them (Korg) is a pale shadow of the current crop of standalone's.

You are missing the point.stand alone is for studio, built in is for live work .both TC/Ketron and prior Roland harmonizers do decent work (may not be studio ready).Hooking up to a rack or bringing extra pedal/midi cable plus no full integration is the problem.with built in VH,fine tune VH as a patch per performance ,save it to the song book ,etc, you are set.you can have doubling,female or male (2 or 3 back up singers following you depending on style or song. Try that with outboard gear without tap dancing, remembering and connection issues which may go wrong during live play.

You have to be a singer and true OMB to understand the concept/importance of onboard VH and how it's pros outweigh cons.

Not quite.
The immediate response to come into my mind is the ease in saving presets and recall them togheter with the rest of the performance.
One other would be one less piece of gear to carry around.
Anyway, what is so smart in adding a reverb into a keyboard, withour the VH? Doesn't even the least of the mixers for PA have a form of reverb/delay? As for the quality of VH, the Korg's one is not a pale shadow of anything, just has less features. Which is normal, but the quality just the same as their counterparts in Helicon's offer.
I am sorry for Roland not adding a real Vocal processor to their BK. THAT is something that I'm afraid does not fool anyone.

Why All the complaining? !!! instead we should rejoice, it's a wonderful time to be an arranger KB player!!!! embrace what technology we NOW have & think back just a few short years ago when we DIDN'T have it... put more emphasis on becoming a better player instead of a chronic Faultfinder...

No complaining here.

Just different oppinions I guess. I'd like this arranger to become a successul release and it could well be, by tommorow (my time) I'll see if that seems like one or not.
Why isn't here on the forum more buzz about it?

Modern standalone harmonizers have MIDI (which would allow your arranger to call up the preset you want per Performance), they even have the ability to just LISTEN to audio and derive harmony from it, and basically, go to the demo pages of any of them and be amazed! There isn't honestly, an arranger that comes CLOSE.

The Korg is the best available, and that is based on TC stuff from 4-5 years ago. A lot has happened in the meantime.

And standalones USED to be studio gear, sure, but have you messed much with VoiceLive and others along those lines? Designed from the ground up to be live tools for singers. There's a lot more foot control than there used to be... One of the things that is difficult to do with an arranger is vary the harmonies much during a song. Sure, you can pick out a preset, one voice above, or block full harmonies, etc., but if you listen to real harmony, it is often different all the way through the song. One part here, a block there, one above, one above/one below, unison in some sections...

Most of the standalones give you multiple footswitches, which can alter the harmony as you go along. Bringing harmony in and out as required, to the degree needed is the hallmark of good harmony. Listening to arranger demos with block harmony voicing from beginning to the end (and a nasty, phase-y sounding block at that) simply makes me cringe. My G70's harmonizer is one of the better ones available (no Korg, though) and I can't bring myself to use it...

Better NO harmony than bad harmony!

Donny's right - it's a wonderful time to be an arranger keyboard player. The work is coming in faster than anyone can imagine, the pay is higher than it has been in decades, and while budgets are being cut in some locations, other places are calling and booking more and more dates. Today, I lost 8 jobs from a location where I've been playing for 15 years. Two hours later, a lady from a brand new retirement and assisted living facility called and asked if she could book 12 jobs at each location, and at a higher rate than the one I just lost.

What I love about nearly all the new arranger keyboards is their versitility. They can do more things than most musician/entertainers ever dreamed of doing, and they do those things very, very well.

Cheers,

Gary

Gary when are you getting your new S950?

THANK YOU DONNY !!! , you hit it and glad someone said it !!!

All this nit picking is getting crazy. Roland has put out a very useful tool for real time preformers with features most would find useful. How many musicians working out there now even use arrangers -- very few. How many in the audience care -- few to none. Oh yea, We've all had someone on the dance floor point to us and complain about that sax sound on one of our styles. HA !
If your that fussy you need TOTL studio equipment, and a big budget.

Things like on board speakers, built in VH, Samplers, etc. are used by a small percentage of those few who actually buy arrangers. Put that stuff in, up the weight and price and then more complaints will follow. I think Roland did a great job in deciding where to draw the line and put in what the majority of users really need. Its a wonder manufactures even care to put out new products to such a small market as we are.
My only wish is for manufactures to put out DVD tutorials so more people could get the most out of their products quickly. Many like myself have very short attention spans for manuels, many of which are poorly written or incomplete. Show me how to do it in real time, please.
Now everyone stop complaining and go play some music, you'll feel better. Myself included

That is probably seen from an American (USA) point of view.
Here in Western Europe and in particular in my home country the sales of (arranger ) keyboards have been massive and that goes for the Mediterranean countries as well. Furthermore a huge market among Arab musicians , a niche that was initially well catered for by KORG and later by Yamaha. Other than that I fully agree with what Donny said, people should be happy with the tremendous luxury of choice and the overall quality and possibilities of the equipment at hand.

regards,
John

Your very welcome Bill,......I also agree on the DVD tutorials which should be a mandatory part of the unit when purchased in Beginner & advanced versions..
I have said this also for years..it would benefit the manufacturers and players in so many ways.

John
You are absolutely correct, I have no knowledge of sales other than what I see in my area of the US. I'm sure thats why the major manufactures continue to make these products, but it must be tough to design something for the different tastes of a worldwide market. I do wish more musicians here would recognize the benefits an arranger could provide them. Probably too much work for the current crop, easier to put on an MP3 and strum your guitar with it. Instant gratification.

True. Guitars are king up here, too. I'm not complaining, though. That's why we're something a little different from the steady diet of pickers with the same old SMF's doing the rounds. Vive la difference!

Oh come on! What is with this "complaining" guys? If someone says "that and that is not quite right" it is not complaining on anything. It's simply expressing personal oppinion. Complaining starts once you've bought or start the use of the instrument!

On the other hand, tell me how many players would use an mic input with their keyboards without a Vocal Harmonizer? Drawing the line right between the mic input and a harmonizer I think was not that smart...

Sorry Donny... your memory may be shorter than mine. I tend to remember the wonderful technology we had back then that we no longer have.

Roland's new version of the Chord Sequencer is an utter waste of time, Korg's only JUST got fixed so that it follows transposition... The more new arrangers come out, the more fundamental, IMPORTANT features get dropped and the more barely useful audio features get added that don't substitute for what is lost.

Once upon a time, MOTL and TOTL arrangers were made for MUSICIANS. Now they are being made for amateurs and gadget crazed children. And the core functionality of arrangers is being compromised more and more.

I'm more concerned with chronic Design, it appears.