No joke! No Pun! No arguing intended, OK?

I seriously want to know if anyone on the forum here can play like this, or do you know of someone here on the forum who can play like this? A forum member only qualifies, OK? I know the Hank Jones guys, the McCoy Tyner and Bill Evans' guys too, so on and so forth.

Please do not include anyone who can play 10 choruses of the melody perfect. After 30 years of playing the same melody over and over, I probably could play 10 choruses of the melody perfect too. Ha ha!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7JAA71x92I I'm talking about the first tune speciffically,, and particularly the improvisonal section after the melody!

"DIKI" gave this as an example on one of his post on the other topic asking "Who gets your vote for OMB performance?"

I didn't see a reply box on the other post! That is why I started this as a "New Topic."

Well, bottom line is, the OP who put them up didn't call them OMB's...just 'famous musicians', and to be fair, many of them play like they are used to comping for real bands, just having fun with an arranger for the first time. None of them do much other than change variations and call up the odd ending. But chops....?

Yes, indeed!

Mad skills on that #1 'Have you met Miss Jones?', the Rogers and Hart standard.

However, nobody is claiming these guys actually go out and GIG like that. So that OMB title still lays open!

Diki,
I just would like to know if we have just one player of that calibre or maybe even half of the improvisational skills that he possesses, who is a member of this forum. If so, he'd be someone I could learn a lot from by picking his brain. I'd just like to chat and hang with him, her through email are whatever.
Thanks for any info friends,
Boo

Who's the best. Mmmm...Tough and IMO very subjective. Also, IMHO, some of the best players don't or can't teach their skills....teaching is very different from playing.

I'm a recently converted (approx. 1 yr.) OMB jazz/ big band trumpet player and have studied (trumpet performance/jazz-degree) and played improv for decades. My current OMB gigs are about 95% instrumental with improv as my 'thing'. I'm working on adding more vocals into my repertoire to open my market.

I'm still learning to operate the arranger/workstation and don't consider myself an expert on this instrument and certainly NOT "The Best".

I don't know where you are but at the risk of being obvious; improv, as I learned & implement, requires a complete mastery of ALL 12 Major & 12 Harmonic minor scales at a minimum. Hopefully @ 200 BPM & flawless. This is the starting point, just the starting point, as I was taught. A basic understanding of seeing and recognizing II, V7, I, - II, V, etc. progressions is also a must IMO. Those are progressions that the root major scale will be your basic 'beginning' for improv.

There are some methods, Jamey Aebersold, etc., that a lot of schools use to help teach improv. I know of jazz professors that teach on-line using Skype, YouTube, and just email with attached audio &/or video attachments.

I've had people ask me over the years but it usually ends when the amount of preparation and commitment wains. Adults are especially difficult to teach because their 'lives' get in the way of the commitment to practice scales. There is an advantage and exception to mastery of all scales on the arrgr/wkstn if you use the transpose option of your keyboard. I have trouble with that because of my years of playing in the key, maybe a handicap with today's technology.

This is all just my experience and opinion! Please be kind, there are other opinions!!

Drop me a PM or email if you want. Considering I'm a relative newbie to this forum you might as well ignore me anyway.

SpclEd,

After a couple of years of learning music in High School, I've always been able to improvise to a degree due to my strong interest in wanting to know every chord of every tune that I played. Especially after deciding that I wanted to learn about the great jazz standards. This to me knowing the chords is a must. Dexter Gordon went as far as to insist that you learn the lyrics also to get the emotional feel for a song.

I've played with bands and didn't have a clue of a particular song. I'd let someone else play the melody and I'd have the Guitar or Piano player just say the chord right before the change came and I would solo. If you know the chords on your horn you can do this.

I want to say that I quit music in 1975. I started back around 2001 or there about. I'm telling you the thing that greatly improved my skills was the day I discovered the solo feature of BIAB. The folks here are only interest in what the keyboard sounds like.

BIAB is capable of creating an improvised solo differently each time you tell it to do so. Many of the licks at the turn arounds and at the 4th bar of a blues that indicates that you have to move to another chord is amazing. I learned a bunch from this feature. I could care less about the sound! I'm interested in the ideas and licks played over chords. Like trying to figure out how in the hell does that note fit in with the chord there that sounds so cool.

Watching the chords go by on the screen and slowing everything down so as to be able to figure it all out is a lot of fun to me. Most people I worked with in bands around New Orleans, to a degree, were always more interested in impressing the ladies and getting the adoration then actually being an accomplished musician.

For most (not all entertainers) this adoration is what it's all about. Just look at what happened to some of the most famous entertainers when they got old and fat. That's their bag and that's fine. But they will never learn to improvise. There are no ladies to help you practice improvisation. Ha ha! For the most part this theory is true.

However, this topic is about me wanting to know if there is a real swinging jazz improvisor keyboard player on this forum, I want to get to know him, her better. Really!

I'm guessing Captain Russ is the best jazz player. He's the real deal.
DonM

Yes, Don, I would have said Russ and chas - wherever he might be ...

Just the word BEST made me go right past this post.

SpeclEd ... welcome ...
I have a friend -Frank - (a solid alto sax jazz player)- whose 9 year old grandson is taking bass lessons ... Frank has told me his grandson knows more scales on the bass than he does on sax ! ...

And SpeclEd ... very few go ignored on this forum ...

Donny ... I agree ... first of all the BEST of anything/person/place is just TOO subjective ... and then there are TOO many parameters ... but when it comes to 'jazz' on this forum from what I have heard I would say Russ and chas - but NEITHER OF THEM IS A OMB PERFORMER ...

WAIT - if I am going to mention people who are not OMB performers, I have to put Rory and the top of the list and add Randy on sax - BTW - where are YOU Randy ???

boo ... I hope this doesn't hi-jack your thread ...

It appears to me, and I could be wrong, that the exemplar is someone playing over, or along with a MIDI or MP3 file.

Oh, and Joe Ayala gets my vote for the best overall player.

Gary

DNJ, Tony, Just listen to the tune and let me know if anyone you know can play similar to this guy on tunes similar to "Have you Met Miss Jones."

I assume that Chas and Diki in fact, do not play like that guy. Their expertise it seems to me is more into the "Funk" stuff, and I assume they do that well. I like funk, but two of those in a row for me on the bandstand is enough for a 45 minute set. However, the tune and player I mention here is what I could play all night without letup, if I were that good.

Russ, are you of that calibre? I know you play very good, but only you know if it's as good as the example here. I don't care if you can do it with a comb and tissue paper. The keyboard or whatever isn't the most import thing, but on the bandstand this player in the example would make me play and sound better by his comping and chord structure.

Tony, The job of the bass player is to know the chords. Some of the best musicians are bass players because of knowing chord structure as the basics of playing bass in the first place. Along with the chords you have to know the scales that fit the chords. However, playing do, re, me, fa, so, la, ti, do on every chord will only make you sound like an idiot. Ha ha! It ver simple but oh so complicated.

I said this before. The telephone uses 10 digits to make millions of millions if not trillions of trillions of phone numbers. A horn has 12 notes between octaves. Add to this the way the note is attacked, the volume, the tonguing, slurring, lipping along with the fingering tricks, and different octaves and you get infinity. All of you science students here should really appreciate this opportunity to do so much with so little, eh?

Gary, no, that is all arranger... Pianostyle mode, Bass inversion on. You can see him holding the root with the LH, and then it's simply good technique on the solos. See him go from Var1 to Var2 (with the fill) at 0:35?

The only thing going on in the ACC is bass, drums and that background organ comping, the primary comping coming from his playing rather than the machine.

This, with jazz, to be frank is the way to do it. The less ACC you have, the more important what YOU play is, and the more you can vary it and make it your own. The minute you rely on enough machine to be really noticeable, that's the minute you start to realize it's a machine!

Those exact same chops (although he might go to more rootless chords) would work in a live band situation. I'd be surprised if this guy plays primarily with machines... What a waste if he did!

And brickboo... I can't honestly recall a user demo from anyone a regular here, myself included, with skills as strong as this. I've heard some downtempo stuff that gave it a run, but when he moves into the double time soloing, no, in fairness, I can't recall any of us getting there.

This kind of supports something I believe... By the time your chops are this toned, you tend to play with PEOPLE! The best line up to play with YOU, and finding a gig that will support three of you isn't that big a chore provided you've got at least a minimum degree of people skills and showmanship. While the arranger is doing a decent job of following him around, it is still a poor substitute for a live drummer and bassist.

The better players can hear this. Sometimes I wonder if some here can.

Oh Diki,
How about me emailing you my post and you figuring out what I'm trying to say, edit it, and sending it back to me to post ,eh? Would that work for you?

Oh, I couldn't afford to pay you though, because I only make $50 at the nursing homes where I play. I raised my price to $65 dollars last year and most don't call me any more.

There is always someone who is willing to play for free just to have a place to play around here. I also am not able to sell hot dogs here either. They just want Steak, potatoes, tacos, and burritos. Oh, don't forget the booze and the drugs. Can you imagine driving around the Rockies with cliffs at every other turn all doped up. "SCARY" to say the least.

Tony look!! I've hijacked my own thread.

Diki,

I went back and watched again - it's as you say. I guess that's similar to Yamaha's Full Keyboard mode of fingering, which is pretty neat to use once in a while.

No doubt about it, he's a very talented player.

Gary

Yes, Gary. If your chops are primarily piano based, and you can solo and comp well either solo or in a duo or trio JUST on the piano, arrangers can do a very good job of tracking your playing, and as long as you keep the ACC to the minimum (bass, drums, maybe a simple jazz guitar or organ comp), you can play without the mechanical nature of the arranger becoming apparent much.

I always have all my ACC Parts on the D-Beam to easily mute (leaving me bass and drums) and to be honest, this is how I prefer to play in arranger mode. I'll unmute what arranger ACC parts I might need for a solo section to give a bit more support, but having come from a live band background, all I ever really need is the basic rhythm section, and I'm happy. I'd rather I played a piano comp and played the brass parts than leave it to the machine.

BrickBoo, Sounds like you have a basic understanding but knowing what to play over a chord is not as important as what to play over a progression. Turn letters into words, notes to phrases.

Back to the ii, V7, I (Dm, G7, CMaj) progression...a very basic and ubiquitous progression in many, many pieces. When you see these 3 chords aligned like this you can play a CMaj scale over the entire progression paying attention to starting and ending notes. Start the Dm chord on a F, A, or C; the 3rd, 5th, or 7th of Dm yet still in the CMaj scale. As the I or CMaj comes end on an E or B (3rd, 7th) and hear the color of each.

Eventually this will lead to the understanding of using a harmonic minor scale over a half-diminished ii, V7, i (ie; d dim, G7,c min).

Now you are creating jazz words or phrases. Learn the words and sentences will soon follow.

Eventually you'll know a Dominant 7th chord can be played with a Mixolydian (or 5th of the major) scale.

We studied Charlie Parker's Omni Book to see some interesting "licks" over certain chords and progressions.

I'd suggest buying Jamey Aebersold's Vol. 3 & Vol. 54, especially the Vol. 3. An entire scale syllabus is in each.

As I right this I think it's impossible to "teach" a language on a forum post but hopefully you can get some direction and begin the never ending journey to playing lucid jazz words, sentences, & paragraphs!!

I've spent the past year moving from trumpet to the arranger and building my repertoire. It's a lot of new learning. My next project is to record a good sampling and post to my coming web page. As with anything its one step at a time. I know its easy to preach but harder to walk the walk. I do not pretend to be the best at anything but I know my music and improv receives praises from fellow musicians (very important to me) and my audiences.

To me it's a work of love. Good Luck with your journey.

BTW: Tony, Thanks for the kind words.......appreciated.

Gary, thanks for the kind comment!

Joe

Oh, and Joe Ayala gets my vote for the best overall player.

Gary
[/quote]

Gary, thanks for the kind comment!

Joe, I just listened to "Night Sonnet" on you site. You're a real player. I'm not trying to find fault or embarrass you. You sound very, very good. I just want to know if you are as comfortable with uptempo Jazz. If so, would you kindly direct me to something of yours that I can listen to. I would really appreciate it.
Thanks a bunch,
Boo Hargis

I have posted some tunes Boo, not strictly arranger - but if you feel like it have a listen...just click on my sig..

Dennis

Dennis, it doesn't count unless you play at least 14 chords each measure!

DonM

So Texas Swing is right out?

Everyone should listen to this again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7JAA71x92I
I wish I could improvise half as good on my sax as this guy does.

Now, how many here knows what chord the guy is using on the last note of the melody on the second tune. Don't look at his left hand. Just listen. This is something any accomplished Jazz player's ear should recognize. Steve Tyrell uses it on "I Can't Get Started" before resolving to another chord and then to the root ending chord.

Isn't this fun educational and entertaining. If not, maybe you should take up knitting. Just kidding, the Devil made me do it. Sorry!!!

Please don't tell the name, (Then everyone will know what it is, OK?). Just say I know what it is. I'm anxious to see who knows it first. I know Russ will know and then maybe Diki, Chas or Joe. The San Francisco Kid I think would know it too, but haven't seen him around lately.

Just put on your Stan Getz or Sonny Rollins' lp's...or Dexter Gordon maybe??

Jazz is a bottomless pit we can so easily fall into... Once you hold up the greats as a reference, unfortunately, we are ALL destined to live our lives in abject misery as we achieve nothing even remotely close to those guys!

Gods walk (or walked) amongst us...

The only mitigating factor is, most of the 'gods' that walk amongst us now look back to Bird or Miles etc., and feel that same abject misery! Some geniuses define the genre, and all we can do is struggle to even get in the ballpark...

I've always had a deep appreciation of jazz, played my fair share, but I've never gone down that rabbit hole. I'm happy to be an all-rounder. I like my jazz, but I like reggae, rock, country, classical, alternative and pop, even! Once you set your happiness up by how well you play jazz, you are either one really talented SOB, or you are miserable! I am happy simple getting close to Roy Bitten or Rabbit Bundrick, Chuck Leavell, guys like that. No way in heaven or on earth, no matter how much I practice, am I ever going to come close to Oscar Peterson, Bud Powell, or Herbie Hancock!

So study it by all means, but be careful how and where you set your goals. Who wants to set themselves up for disappointment?!

Me? I just play what sounds nice, even if simple. And whatever tune grabs me at the time.

One thing I have stopped doing is cover tunes at gigs that are JUST like the record. After 25+ years of doing same, I finally switched on to the fact that even playing someone elses tune, one still needs to add personal interpretations. And apart from "rednecks" most folks at shows actually appreciate a fresh approach to a song.

It is one of the reasons I guess I have moved away from "arrangers" per se. I felt constricted by mindless looping of the same short part. I woke up one day and realised it was why I got tired of perfectly good instruments. Simply because, the repetitive nature of the system, insidiously affected my musicality at a lower level than I had realised.

hmmm..wow too D & M there but others may catch on to my drift here

Mind you systems I am using now are not that much better, but they are at least better, in my way of thinking anyhoo

Well, as good as it can be without playing with other live players

Dennis

Diki,
Are you gonna accept my post, edit them, send them back to me to post or what? Are you ignoring me, you don't like me, or are you deaf? Ha ha!

Diki, When I started back playing in 2001 or about, I couldn't play my old mouthpiece worth a crap. I was dumbfounded. I got in touch with my old sax friend who I hadn't seen since the middle sixties, but I knew he was still and always had been playing. He's gigged with Dr. John and even did some things and hung around a bit with David "Fathead Newman. I knew that if he couldn't help me no one could.

After we had a few chats on the phone for the next couple of months,I said I didn't want to embarrass him but wanted to ask a question that was very important to me. He said ask anything you want.

I said You've been playing music from the gitgo and I know that you couldn't hold a day gig for more than a couple of hours and laughed. I asked can you play like Dexter, Rollings, or Coltrane etc. He said exactly what you posted above.

He said Boo, there comes a time when you have to realize that they guys you're talking about were geniuses at what the did just like Einstein was a genius at what he did. You can't believe how much that profound statement kept me going.

He said you have to accept that and just do what you can do, and don't worry about what other cats can do. Diki, you two guys are from the same mold and this was nice to hear again from you even though you're all wrapped up in "Country." LOL!!!

You still know what you are talking about and appreciate jazz too. I'm glad you're a member here. I don't give a crap what anybody else thinks about ya. You're top notch even though you do step on some toes every now and again. Remember this: "The Truth Hurts," some people sometimes. LOL

Thanks, Boo...

I always remember the old Saturday Night Live skits 'Lowered Expectations'..!

If you can't live with those, time to hang it up! Of course, we all push, practice and listen. But if your goal is Bird or nothing, save the time and chose nothing now!

As a practical gigging keyboard player, I realize a lot of my listening and practice time needs to be spent on more than JUST jazz. While having an exhaustive command of II-V-I turnarounds is OK, it doesn't help much with a good banjo emulation, or getting the bobble and skank down cold in a reggae tune, or what to do when playing an old rocker!

So, 'lowered expectations' helps me musically, practically, and emotionally!

I'll try to be Bird in my next life..!

Profoundly and well said Diki.

I say who are WE to judge?

Can I remind you of that the next time you hold an opinion?

If you haven't got an opinion, you simply don't care...

I think I'll cast a vote for ME! What the Hell, I do it all. Sing, play (not very good, though), keep the dance floor packed, schmooze the ladies, book more jobs in a month than most of the full bands do in a year, I really don't like Jazz, but once in a while I'll do a few Jazz numbers.

I've made a fairly decent living in music (and just about everything else I've ventured into over the past half-century), and music has provided me with sufficient income to purchase a sailing yacht, keep a roof over my head, and keep the cars on the road. Music has made it so that I don't own anyone money, I continue to run a successful entertainment business, and for the first time in my life I can take as much time off as I want and still have a reasonable income. So, with all those attributes, despite the fact I really don't like Jazz, I vote for ME.

Later tonight I'll probably vote for Don Mason, Tony Madalone, Donny Pesce, Uncle Dave, Fran, Paul, John, Paul and Ringo, and a bunch of others. Then again, I might just vote for me again, depending on how I feel after a couple Green Coconut Margarettas. Boo, we've been friends for many, many years, but damned, this is a dumb-assed thread.

Bottom's up!

Gary

Gary call and give me your address, I send you a few of my "Ativan." Haha!

I just used the same topic because I couldn't post to the old topic for some reason.

Everyone listen close. This is not about who is the best OMB, I want to know who is the best musician member on this forum.

Read my question again. ALL I ASKED WAS: DID ANYONE HERE KNOW OF ANYONE ON THE FORUM WHO COULD PLAY LIKE THE GUY THAT DIKI POSTED ON THE OTHER SAME TOPIC. I COULD GIVE A CRAP WHO IS THE BEST OMB GUY HERE. I AM INTERESTED IN WHO CAN PLAY AND IMPROVISE LIKE THE GUY IN THE DEMO. HOW CAN THIS BE MISS UNDERSTOOD.
I WANT TO KNOW WHO IS THE BEST MUSICIAN. GEEZ!!!!!!!!!
DON M SAID RUSS. SO FAR WE HAVEN'T HEARD FROM RUSS. I'D LIKE TO HEAR ANY UPTEMPO DEMO THAT RUSS MAY HAVE. IS THIS HARD TO UNDERSTAND?

I'm gonna love ya anyway Gary. I don't give a crap what anyone says about ya friend.

As I said on a different thread, truth is, by the time you can play as well as that guy, you aren't really interested in being an OMB...

You might do solo jazz piano in jazz clubs or concerts, but you don't go out with an arranger to gig!

I don't care - I'm still votin' fer me!

Gary

DAMN !!! ... I was hoping it was MY turn !!!

BTW Gary ... thanks for spelling my name correctly ...

In truth, Boo, you DID title the thread 'Who gets your vote for OMB performance? Seriously?', not 'Who is the best musician on this forum?' so it's hardly fair to dismiss the answers. They ARE to the question you asked...

That you changed the question in the body of the OP probably escapes most people, as they answer the title...

Yep, what he said I would just add selective ignorance.

I don't give a rat's behind who the best jazz player is, and neither do 99% of people. I'd much rather play something people want to hear and/or dance to.
I'll bet you would get way more response on a jazz forum, if there are any.
To me music is not a contest, it's a pleasure and a privilidge to be able to do it at a level that others can enjoy hearing. Playing arranger is way more than how many notes or chord changes you can fit in.
DonM

I concede to the majority. Besides, DonM is twice as big as me!!!!

Still love ya Boo! Hope you had a great Father's Day.
DonM

I wish you, Susan and the boys the best too Don.
Boo

Don, is Cavanaugh still kicking?

Boo, I'm the best player I can be, but many can play me under the table. Sadly, most of my recordings are money scores and I cannot share them. I sent Don a score rough a few years ago and he posted it. Don't know if he still has it, but it contained some pretty strange, but fun upscale improvisation.

I have permission to share that one, so I'll ask don to look for it, and try to locate it myself.

Russ

P.S.

I know there were some problems voiced about the subject, but I LOVED IT!


Improvisation is MAGIC when it happens. Mo "bread" for most of us when we work hard enough to get any good at it, but that's one of the major crosses jazzers have to bear!


Thanks for taking the time to post a topic that gets at the core of why I'm a musician. (Well, that and P***Y).



Russ

I think this is it:

www.donmasonmusic.com/RussLay.mp3

It is 8 minutes long, so get some coffee first.

DonM

After listening to that, you get my vote Russ.

Thanks, Don. I have to say, this was not done on an arranger, but was a rough sound score for an industrial film. I played all the instruments on this rough, but only B-3, piano, guitar and bass on the final.

The final was done with a B-3 and real guitar.

This is pretty typical of my industrial work, and is one of the few a client will let me share. While I can't get specific, the client is a world-leading automobile manufacturer.

I am particularly proud of the improvisation on the final piece, but I don't have permission to share it.

It's a shame that there is no market around here that pays any dough to play this kind of stuff or any improvisational material, for that matter.


Also, guys, remember that film scores are usually written in movements for patching, linking and editing to time, and have a pretty corny, but strong beginning and ending for use under titling and credits.

OH well, it pays the bills!


Russ

Russ, thanks for appreciating the topic.
Don, I appreciate the post.

Russ, anyone who is a musician would know that you are a more than adequate improvisor from just reading your post over the years.

Thanks again,
Boo

Thing is afaiacs, a lot of so called improv is merely the recital of scales.

In a lot of stuff there is no alternate melodies being played over an existing chordal movement, just a bunch of full or part jazz scales. TBH, it all gets rather boring listening to it. I can play scales, at quite a fast tempo as well, but I tend to try and re-create my own melodies over the chords as an improv, not just play a scale or two and call it original. I will even on occasion change the chordal structure, most of the time it is rather subtle.

Further, I think on this forum a lot of support or kudos tends to go only to those that are "liked" or are well known, and it is strongly objectified on many occasions. There are several little "cliques" on this forum that at times make it an unpleasant place to hang out at.

Lots of pretenders, not many princes.

Anyhow, good luck with your "COMPETITION" is anyone running a book?

I will be posting a few more tunes to my SC site, but I won't be advertising it here I can tell you, not that I am seeking or even need any comments from members here (my own enjoyment of playing the tunes is enough for me) , but it is simply not worth the grief and aggravation that many of these pissing contests here seem to engender in many members.

I do hope that the OP can remove his blinkers for long enough to realise there is more to jazz, improv and interpretation than simply playing a sh@#load of notes with no real theme, very quickly.

That's me done.
Cheers

I played trombone on Bourbon St. back in the 70's
I was very good. I got that way by turning on the jazz radio station and jamming with it every night from 12 yrs through 17 yrs old. After that I was working 3 to 5 nights a week. New Orleans didn't check ID's back then. I got good by playing all the time. The herbs worked for me and Mr Armstrong although I never found herbs as good as Mr Armstrong!!!
I read part one book on playing Jazz by Jerry Coker. When I read the line that said "If people can figure out what you are going to play next most of the time they will get bored. If people can never figure out what you are going to play next they will lose interest" I got it and pitched the book.
With that line from the book, years of playing with the radio and a few herbs I was the real deal.
I no longer play the horn or puff herbs. Music is a hobby that I am a bit of a dud at but it's better than watching TV!

Hey Brooster..! I didn't get to Bourbon St. to play until the very late 90's. Wish I could have been there in my teens! It has gone so far downhill with respect to jazz, I rarely go there anymore. The good stuff is all out towards Frenchman and the Faubourg Marigny.

Trombone was my major through college, but by the time I got to Bourbon, I was doing keyboards and LH bass (in a 9 piece, no less!) and they already had a t'bone player (and a good one at that) so I rarely got to play it.

The Big Easy must have been such a blast back then!

I also agree with your 'jam along to the radio' approach. No matter what form of music you are trying to get down, jamming with the best is the way to do it, and seeing as it's hard to get on stage with them while you are learning, sneaking up on them while they play on the radio works great!

And if you were playing 3-5 nights a week in NOLA, don't put yourself down. You aren't a dud (unless you are comparing yourself to Watrous!), and the horn awaits...

And Denniss... yes, up to a certain point, a lot of the high tempo stuff is scales, modes, arepeggio's. But the greats go beyond it. And move the harmonic structure behind what they are doing their thing on so much, it's hard to figure out WHAT pins it down inside their head while they do the scales.

I agree with you that, at least for me, MY solo improv style is to simply come up with an alternate melody, hopefully as strong as the main melody, and decorate around that a bit. Particularly coming from the 'bone (not as agile as most horns, unless you are Carl Fontana!) this being forced into a slower style allows my little guy inside my head to sing, and all I do is play what he sings. And the singing voice is nowhere near as agile as a sax!

In fact, what little teaching I do about improv mostly revolves around trying to get the student to link their voice with their instrument. Most of us can scat a reasonable decent solo on our voices. No instrument to get in the way, no fingering, no nothing but our minds and our voice (the most connected instrument to your brain you'll ever have). So, if you can scat a decent solo, just learn to play what you can scat! Easy..!

So I get them to do simple exercises, sing a bar, play the same thing you just sang. Sing two bars, play what you sang. Sing eight bars, sing sixteen... Pretty soon the connection between what you hear in your head and what you play is made. Your instrument now BECOMES your voice! And that's when the magic starts to happen.

Don't worry about anyone else's approach, whether confrontational or not. Let it go. Be confident in your own system, let the results do the talking!

Thanks Diki...fwiw your teaching method is EXACTLY how I do it.

I sing as well (and not just a total improv like the one on NYSOM on SC), and it is how I get improv melodies. As I am playing I am sorta kinda "singing" the notes in my head fractionally before I play them, . Weird huh!!

Cheers m8,

Dennis

I'm pretty sure I could improvise very well on jazz. Just a matter of learning the chord changes. My hands do what they feel like doing and it usually sounds pretty good to me, although my standards may be low. I just tried it using Bebop style on the PA3X with That Old Black Magic and Route 66, probably not true jazz songs, but I know them at least.
I just play the notes that sound right and skip the ones that don't.
DonM

Listen to Oscar Peterson, Denniss... you can hear him 'grunting' what he is playing quite a lot of the time!

Often, when I use jazz studio piano players (one in particular...he easily plays me under the table)onm sessions, the hardest thing is to get him NOT to grunt. The sound is picked up by the instrument mics...not a pretty sound!


Russ

If he plays as good as Oscar, it's worth it!

WHO plays as good as OSCAR ... other than Oscar ???

I'm still votin' fer me - and I still hate jazz!

Gary, sadly, you're in the majority. And, I'm convinced that there's little or nothing I, as a pretty "hard liner" can do to change your mind.

But, man, JUST LISTEN to what's out there!

It does a major number on me, in the HUMBLE department.

Every time I do a $400.00 corporate or government dinner party, I'd trade it in a heartbeat for a $75.00 jazz gig. Every time I cash a corporate $25,000 check for an industrial sound score, I just shake my head. At least, per the attached sample rough, you sometimes get a little "wiggle room".

Yea, in an imaginary world!

Sadly, if I don't watch it, I continuously play myself out of a gig.

Russ (proud "hard-liner") Lay

Several years ago I was playing a couple of nights a week at the Renaissance Harbor Place Hotel here in Baltimore. They had piano players on the week nights and trios on the weekend. On the roster were several of the best jazz players in town. One day we all got a letter from the manager that said to please tone down the improv and play songs people could recognize. Some of you would say he had no taste, but he was the guy who signed the paychecks.

Joe

Some guys will listen to the greats and try to learn the licks note for note slowing passages down to catch the details. Good luck with that in most cases. My own approach, never having had the patience to sit and study anything was, as Diki mentioned, jam along with the radio, records, etc. I won't pretend that I'm a real musician but, yes, the tune is in my head before it's transmitted to my fingers. I don't know how that works or how I manage to even do that. I guess we all do it our own way.

My dad and I would listen to Smith, McGriff, McDuff, and others and he'd say to me, "See, everything those guys play comes, in part, from somewhere else and, in part, from within. Take from what you hear them doing, and add yourself into the mix. Stay with that and you won't go far wrong." True then, true now. This all rang true to me when a bass player we had told me I'd managed to make my own style. He said that he'd know it was me playing before he even entered the room. That's a great compliment.

It's all about pushing envelopes.

Joe, I played there about 10 or 12 years ago, mainly doing private parties in one of the ballrooms. My only gripe was getting in and out of there, and of course, the parking situation. The money, though, was great - often $500 for a 3-hour party. I found out later that the guy who parked cars was making more than anyone there playing music.

The wildest party I did in Baltimore was at the Admiral Fell Inn at Fells Point. It was for a shipping company and took place on the top floor, which meant a couple trips up on the service elevator and sliding through the kitchen, which always had a very slippery floor. There was a jazz trio playing downstairs, and I thought there were pretty good, but the bar was nearly empty where they performed. I had about 200 people for the party, and while I thought the shipping company was a trucking company, as it turned out, it was a massive corporation that owned a couple dozen container ships. I had a great gig, and the restaurant owner asked if I would be interested in playing there on Friday nights. I turned him down. I just got paid $500 for the party, plus got a $300 tip, which I didn't expect, so playing for the drunks in the bar for $150 for a 4-hour job just wasn't going to cut it. He said he understood, we shook hands and parted ways.

Russ, I've listened to your music, and you have a lot more musical talent in your little finger than I have in my entire body. You can play circles around 99 percent of the guys on this forum, and you have my utmost admiration. For me, though, jazz, well it's just not what I enjoy listening to, or playing, especially for extended periods. I'm one of those people that can listen to Jimmy Buffett, Willie Nelson, Sinatra, etc..., I love Latin music, Italian music, Bossa, and movie themes. But jazz - nah! Just not for me.

Cheers,

Gary

And that's certainly your right, Gary. I just know that the best players I have ever known are drawn to the challenge of a lifetime involved with Jazz. Sadly, it sometimes brings with it drugs, hunger, and all other kinds of suffering.

That really sucks!

I'm a sell out, and sometimes, like today, when Boo brought all this up, I don't feel real good about being true to my calling.

It's just that starvation and everything associated with it has never been very appealing.

Only top Jazzers make any money at all. and I certainly wasn't anywhere near a top player.

Oh well, you play what's dealt!

R.

NO insult intended just stating something, a fact that I understood many years now from just talking about this subject and other musicians views.

1. Folks who don't like jazz do not understand it and the structure basics of the complex chord progressions and the actual structure of complex chords.
2. They are not capable of playing jazz because of the discipline needed to patiently practice it on a regular schedule.
3. They think that everyone who can play jazz is gifted, and just do not realize the time, effort and training it takes to get even close to playing jazz. You also have to listen intently on a regular schedule to the jazz greats.
4. You're not a Jazzer because you know two jazz tune melodies but cannot improvise which in essence is jazz.

Who is a real jazzer? He is a musician who someone in a club or wherever mentions to a band member that he is a good trumpet player and gets invited on the bandstand by someone he may not even know and gets asked, do you know "Darn That Dream" or some other difficult jazz standard that all the greats did.

They agree on one of these tunes and the original key is known by both parties. The invited person ask for a four bar turn-around and begins to play the melody with his own technique and feeling and does a solo maybe for a chorus or two or three and they swap out on the bridges each chorus maybe.

Then as Russ stated, all the jazzers really enjoy playing fours. It's actually a contest.

I remember Dexter on several different sessions near the last chorus or two with Hank Mobley and on another session with Johnny Griffin playing the lick, "Anything You Can Do I Can Do Better," as they were actually playing each other's licks and trying to do them better. If you're a jazzer you would really be knocked out of your socks hearing this for the first time and the more you listen to it the better it gets.

When I worked in New Orleans I enjoyed playing fours with two other very good tenor players more so than paying attention to the attractive brunette smiling at the band all night.

I'm elated that I've had the opportunity to experience that in my life and thoroughly enjoyed it and remember all the different guys who could cut it. I don't believe that even pot could compare with the feeling.

OK somebody tear me a new one for speaking honestly. Here's another fact! If you're into music to entertain for money, free alcohol (booze) and adoration from the opposite sex, you ain't smart enough to be a jazzer. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Dosage still a bit off?

Don't worry, we'll get Boo back in the facility before they even know he escaped, again.

Doctor Gary,

I'm smart enough NOT to be a jazzer!
DonM

DonM, you got me again, Haha! You'll never be a jazzer no matter how smart you'd get if you live for a thousand years.

Never once have I read where even one jazzer had the time, or money to Bass fish and play golf every day.
Less see if I get you now.

By the way thanks for teaching me to do the colon and other key trick.

Hah! Don't mess with the colon, Boo. That's doctors' work.;)

I'd like to give Boo a big pat on the back. You see, when you're a "jazzer", you are so wrapped up in this beautiful, complex and, at the same time, frustrating art form that you feel compelled to share it; especially with friends.

It rarely works, and you get accused of being an elitist (or worse),but, believe me, he's serious as a heart attack.

I understand and really appreciate the effort and "soul-bearing".

I'm right there with you, Boo!

Thanks,


Russ

Russ, Man!, you're gonna make me cry. I feel like the "black sheep." I hope this isn't taken racially!!

Thanks Russ. You're a gentleman and a scholar and exceptionally intelligent because you have all of the chord structures figured out. I'm beginning to think you might be the only one along with Randy the saxman.

Especially, when I read that to be a jazzer "you just have to play a particular scale over a particular chord." How ignorant and shallow. Some making these comments say they've been around music for many years. It's hard for me to believe.

Ignorance and shallowness being demonstrated to the fullest, IMO...

Hey please help me to keep this thread going. Nigel PMed me and said that if I can reach 2000 views, he'll refund my $100,000 donation I made awhile back.

Please help!! I want to get a fleet of "Hot Dog Carts." Believe it or not Diki I have lots of great friends who can help me run them.