As a sequence to what I wrote last week about the Korg Micro Arranger being an ideal add-on keyboard to an existing arranger keyboard, in particular any Yamaha keyboard I have tried to visualize what I mean.
This is a simple and most practical solution which leaves you with 8 RH sounds at the touch of a button and two completely independent accopaniments TO BE PLAYED ON THE LOWER KEYBOARD simply depending on which start button you engage.
http://youtu.be/0j5xPNoARsc

regards
John

P.S. Diki's comments about intertwining the two arrangers is in itself a valid one but way too complicated for daily use, let alone giggin on stage. With the KMA being such a cheap and forceful arranger, this is an ideal set up imho.
And of course it works well in any two keyboard set up, I should think, behold mine....

P.P.S. I apoligize for the imperfections and poor voice but it has been an while............

john,
Just actually discovered this post. I'am in the process of setting up my KMA and S950 to see what results I get. Might do some recordings and a video but it will be next week because I'am gig busy all this week.

Deane

John:

You should also be able to set it so you can play any RH part from the bottom keyboard. That's what I do with my Tyros/Motif mix. If all the the Motif lead parts are off then I select a Tyros RH voice. Or I turn off the Tyros RH voices and select a Motif Voice. Or I can layer them. All this while the LH plays either a Tyros Style or a Motif Performance. Of course mixing parts from the Style and Performance can also be done but the syncing can be difficult. In any case I play everything from the bottom keyboard ( Motif ).

The reason it is so complicated at the moment is the very thing I brought up... They do not communicate anything about which Variation, Fill, Intro or Ending you select to each other.

So, you can get them to start, you can get them play together, you can select what sound you want on the master keyboard.

But... Once you have them both running, you will have to do all the Variation and Fill selections on BOTH arrangers by hand. Hardly optimal! This is where I would like all that consider this ability would be useful to contact the manufacturers and start making noise to have them all standardize the Style Division codes.

If this were done, the rest is pretty simple... A Performance allows you to mute each individual style Part (or you can set their volumes to zero), so by simply pairing Performances on the Master and Slave arranger, you easily decide which one plays the drums, the bass, the guitars, horns, strings etc..

All you would do is select both Performances, then run the master arranger normally... and everything else simply just happens. Simple, easy, powerful beyond belief!

Please contact your manufacturers. This would be easy for them to do, but they are only going to do it if sufficient people show there is a demand for it. Or they will continue to cripple our arrangers as they have for decades.

I know Joe, but that would be a waste of the RH sounds on the lower keyboard. In this thread I started on the assumption that a KMA is an add-on and that you certainly want to miss out on the RH sounds of your main arranger keyboard. Even I do not want to miss out on the RH PA800 sounds.

Deane,
Looking forward to that mate, who knows Donny might have second thoughts !!

Diki,
Not all that many get down tho this, the basic MIDI connection, let alone what you propose. I played around with those combinations many moons ago but let it go for being too complex but most of all too impractical.
Still waiting though for some of your musical postings !

regards,
John

Once again, I simply point out that the reason it was impractical was the refusal to standardize the codes for Style Divisions.

Just as it would be impractical to do what you suggest here if the manufacturers hadn't standardized how you call up sounds, or how you send note information, etc., etc..

All it takes is an agreement, and things become simple.

I firmly believe the manufacturers do not want real communication between various brands. We might find a combination we love, and then we wouldn't be in the market for their periodic "upgrades".
DonM

I fully concur with what Don says here.
Incidentally, a friend of mine remarked that I have created the impression of wanting to promote the Korg Micro Arranger. Well that is only half true. I wish Yamaha, and more in particular Ketron and Roland would release mini arrangers like that and at those budget prices. I would get them without another thought !
And let's not forget that the KMA is a full fledged replica of the PA50 and more or less the PA80. All I am saying here is that it pays to consider adding such a lot of sounds and styles for such a comparitively small amount of money. By doing what I suggest as regards MIDI connecting the acc. section you also circumnavigate the use of the smaller keys. ( not that all that many find fault with those).
So rather than appealing to the companies to synchronise everything as Diki would want ( and which is unlikely to happen) I would say, get out some mini arranger keyboards or sound modules. ( Yamaha ,Ketron, Roland)

regards,
John

Talking of modules.. Dan`s vArranger sofwtare could be combined with multiple sound modules MIDIed using say Midi Sport 4X4 midi interface. For the more complex features wanted here, Dan could take these into consideration for versions coming up if not available now. I feel these can be done by expert programmers like Dan. And more importantly, he listens to his customers.

And yes I agree that manufacturers should bring out arranger modules and more so with a touch option ...

Then why put MIDI on at all? This is the kind of thinking we had before MIDI came out... Why would any keyboard manufacturer allow his gear to talk to gear from another manufacturer? Surely that would impact his sales?

But the manufacturers realized that, if they communicated over a common protocol, people with a Yamaha would buy a Roland, and people with a Roland would buy a Yamaha... and sales doubled (because Yamaha people weren't going to buy ANOTHER Yamaha, they already got one!). Actually, they much more than doubled.

The thing is, most of us have ONE arranger. The fact that it is so hard, complicated, and sometimes downright impossible to run two at the same time means we usually only play one at a time. So most of us BUY one at a time. But make it easy to run TWO at a time (or three), and sales would explode.

The manufacturers ALREADY scavenge sales from their TOTL by making incredibly capable, good sounding MOTL arrangers... The extra sales of more MOTL (or BOTL) arrangers we would all be buying if they actually worked together well would MORE than compensate for the few TOTL sales lost. And, TBH, I would imagine that there are many that would happily buy more than one TOTL arranger to use together IF THEY BLOODY WORKED TOGETHER!

The idea that this would do anything but explode arranger sales is ridiculous. We already saw what open communication did for synth sales.

For professionals Diki is correct, (Hence workstations are so popular) however the Arranger keyboard has always been designed for the home player (There a cheaper spin off of the home organ) which probably account for about 95% of the sales of arrangers, and as most home players aren’t interested in midi or linking things together, (Apart from adding a slave keyboard and pedals to make it like a portable organ) therefore there is zero incentive for arranger manufactures to agree on a common style communication method a sales increase would be minimal.

Bill

I don't wish to be rude, but is there any evidence that most home players aren't interested in midi or linking things together?

Read any home organ/keyboard magazine, ask the punters at any of the keyboard festivals, ask the punters at the many organ/keyboard clubs and finally just talk to users who play these keyboards, (there are also many forums about) and they all say the same. “I don’t what to get involved with that” “I want to play not mess about with wires and incomprehensible manuals”

Bill

Chass,
I think Bill is pretty correct there. From my experience I would say by far most of them, even should they have more than one arranger keyboard, don't want to meddle with MIDI intricacies.That is basically the reason for my thread and suggestio in the first place. By merely connecting the acc. sections of two arrangers in general you set the first easy step which for the great majority will be amply sufficient.
At least I experience on a daily basis how comfy it is to play the two arrangers (acc. section) from just the lower keyboard.

regards
John

Apart from MIDI how many player actually use or even delve into the many facilities of the modern keyboard after having paid large amounts of money for additions they never use.
Myself I like to learn everything my board can offer and doing so actually improves my playing with the added facilities.

I would guess the Roland BK7M would be the ideal solution to a setup like this. Its meant to be controlled form another instrument so setup may be easier than a stand alone unit.

I fully agree with Graham's statement above. I have been amazed at the number of individuals that never remove their user manual from the plastic, Zip-Loc bag let alone delve into the inner workings of their arranger keyboard's operating system.

One of the problems, though, is the poorly written user/owner manuals. I spent an hour searching the user manual for the TC Helicon Voice Live 2 last night for specific instructions on MIDI connection to the device. That manual is so poorly constructed that I doubt that anyone could find anything resembling a step by step procedure for connecting an arranger keyboard to the Voice Live 2.

Gary

I think all of the keyboard manufacturers have missed using the one tool that I make for myself with each new keyboard and that is the menu tree view or graphic.

In this case, one picture might even be better than a million words. ;-)

I finally made one for my Motif when I had it and that totally made sense of everything and the keyboard so much easier to understand.

Bill G

I think most people confuse a manual with a tutorial. That isn't the purpose of a manual. A manual lays out the capabilities and the operational path for a product, a tutorial assumes you don't know how to operate a product at all, and steps you through the initial operation of the product.

If you want tutorials, contact your manufacturer. Or PAY someone to write them (don't steal their .PDF's!). Make it worth their while.

Thing is, I'm amazed at the confusion people have here at figuring out stuff that has been on the last two or three arrangers they have had! People buying new arrangers before they have bothered to figure out the one they have. I imagine half of them go for features they don't even know is already on the one they have! In fact, half the people here probably use arrangers the same way they did when they first got their first arranger! Free panel, call up everything as you go along.

Trouble is, of course, that first arranger they bought had maybe 30 styles, 60 sounds total, and no panel memory! If that's how you want to run things, stick to an old arranger..

If not, crack the manual, use the myriad resources on the web to talk to people that HAVE figured out how to do stuff, and figure out that, if you want to buy a wonder machine that can do a million things, you MIGHT need to work just a bit harder than that first arranger you bought.

You buy a car, it doesn't come with instructions on how to drive...

Diki, almost everything you stated above is right on the money. Almost! Many, many years ago I wrote technical manuals, and they were just as I described - step by step instructions on how to do something with a particular piece of equipment. These were not tutorials - they were clear, concise user/owner manuals, which in this instance, was for the use of certain medical devices. A defibrillator comes with an owner/operator manual - not a tutorial. A pacemaker comes with an installation manual for the surgeon to follow step by step. A cardiac catheter is shipped with a manual that provides clear, concise, step by step instructions on how to use the various devices that are safely inserted through the catheter. (Gives you that warm, fuzzy feeling knowing that your surgeon had to read a manual in order to perform a certain, life-saving procedure. )

One of my first Yamaha arranger keyboards had a very well written manual that allowed the user to sit down with the manual next to the keyboard and go through the various features - step by step, and with photos of the screens and buttons on the various subject pages. That was more than 20 years ago. The keyboard had more than 100 styles, more than 100 voices, and a lot of neat features within various menus. It took months of going through that manual sitting next to the keyboard to find out what each and every feature did, and how I could utilize those features to their fullest extent for what I was doing. It was a lot of work, but worth every minute I invested.

Your NEW car DOES come with a very well written manual with lots of step by step instructions. The one that came with my Dodge Grand Caravan has detailed instructions and photos of how to change the serpentine belt, oil filter, tail-lights, headlights, cabin filters, interior lights, the locations and types of fuses, and dozens of other things that owners should know. There are detailed instructions and photos of how to jack up your car, remove a flat tire, the amount of torque required for the lug nuts, how to access the spare tire (doughnut), where the jack and lug wrench is stored, etc... And, if you took the time to read the manual that came with your car, which most people NEVER DO, you would have noticed there is a section on starting the car, putting it in gear, buckling your seatbelt, adjusting the mirrors, adjusting the seat position, filling the gas tank, load capacity, and driving in hazardous conditions. There's a section on using the cruise control, detailed instructions and photos of what each button does, and there's even instructions and photos on where the horn button is located. This is not a TUTORIAL - it's in the owner's manual that came with the car. The difference is that car manuals and medical device manuals must follow certain guidelines, while there are likely no guidelines for manuals pertaining to musical equipment - BUT THERE SHOULD BE!

Unfortunately, in this wonderful world of instant gratification, damned few people ever make an effort to read anything unless it's on an LCD/LED screen directly in front of their face, and even then they tend to browse over things instead of really reading them. Two decades ago, music gear came with well written, well constructed, concise, detailed owner/user manuals. A decade ago, manufacturers discovered it was a lot less expensive to put that manual on a CD and ship it with the equipment. Today, the only manual you get seems to have been created well after the product was created and produced, thus a garbage, poorly-written, vague, nondescript, poorly bound book comes with your very expensive musical equipment. If you want more information, you can go to the manufacturer's web site and download additional manuals in PDF format, manuals which were apparently written by the same eggheads that produced the one that came with your musical device.

Of course, you can call customer service, which in many instances results in being put on hold listening to elevator music for hours on end while waiting for the next service technician to answer. Of course, there's that nagging, computerized voice that comes on every 30 seconds that says "All of our service representatives are currently busy helping other customers. Your call will be answered by the next, available technician. Or, you can go to our website at www.bull$hit.net." If you go to the website you will search through endless pages of meaningless crap that never answers your questions, or just takes you to 10,000 other, garbage links.

When he or she does answer, which sometimes never happens because you get disconnected, you discover that person doesn't understand a word you are saying for a host of reasons, not the least of which is they don't speak the same language, or they have no knowledge of the subject matter and must put you on hold so they can ask their supervisor. Had that information been spelled out in clear, concise terms in the user/owner manual you wouldn't have been on the phone, on hold, in the first place. You could have found the information in the index, then went to the pages that provided the instructions you needed to get the job done.

I need a Margaretta!

Gary

You need your information in a form you can read on your LCD in front of your face, ALL the manufacturers publish electronic versions of the manual.

The difference between a defibrillator and an arranger is that a defibrillator is designed for ONE function. An arranger can be used a myriad different ways these days. SMF's, MP3's, synced audio loops, styles... OK, so your old Yamaha had more than 30 styles... big whup! It probably had a tiny fraction of the different options you have now. Multiple fingering modes, multiple splits, multiple insert effects, multiple ways do do the SAME thing!

A tutorial would be incomplete until it was the size of War and Peace!

Look, there are people that apply themselves, and figure out from a manual what can be achieved, and there are people that want to sit there and have it spoon fed to them, one tiny concept at a time. But those that choose the spoon fed system rarely grasp the concepts behind what they are doing, and rarely advance any further than the tutorial. And usually never use 90% of even what is explained to them.

Arrangers attract a HUGE range of players. From the noobiest of noobs, to the studio professional, used to using gear FAR more complex. How is any manufacturer expected to deliver the appropriate level of hand holding to ALL of them..?

The truth is, if you REALLY want to know how to do anything on any arranger, there already ARE resources where all their questions can be answered (here is one of them!). If anyone doesn't make us of all this, why is it the manufacturers' responsibility to give them a tutorial they are unlikely to use?

The only reason I put that responsibility on the manufacturers is it's THEIR PRODUCT! And, THEY are the beneficiaries of the funds derived from selling THEIR PRODUCT to the consumer.

About 40 years ago I designed a coronary artery flow meter to be used during surgical procedures involving a pump-oxygenator, also known as a heart/lung machine. It provided pulsatile flow of oxygenated blood to both the right and left coronary arteries, and provided the technician with an instantaneous readout of the flow to each artery. It was highly accurate, very easy to use, but did require some training in order for the cardio-pulmonary tech to know exactly how and where to connect it to the pump-oxygenator. Unfortunately, because I was an employee of the university, and I designed and constructed the device at their facilities, I could not benefit monetarily from the device. The company that eventually manufactured and distributed them contracted me to provide a detailed instruction manual for the flow meter, which I did, again without any financial gain. However, that company did benefit financially, and because of this they felt compelled to provide a highly comprehensive manual to their consumers. I'm not sure if they were compelled to do this by law.

Now, I can't think of a single reason why an arranger keyboard manufacturer would not feel compelled to do the same thing. If I were the manufacturer of an arranger keyboard, or any product, for that matter, I would provide such a manual. I would want my customers to have detailed instructions of how to get the most out of MY PRODUCT(S). I would want them to be repeat customers who know they can rely on MY OWNER/USER MANUAL for answers to those difficult, technical questions, and those answers would be in plain language that everyone, at every skill level, could easily understand.

I don't want to search throughout every, unknown page in the operating system to find something as simple as setting a foot pedal. I should be able to look in the user manual's index under Foot Pedal/setting and find that information on page 81, turn to page 81 and see:

To set the keyboard's foot pedals:

1. Press the Function Button, located on the lower ride side of the LCD display. This opens the function page.
2. Select Pedals from the menu by pressing the "I" button on the lower, right side of the display. (This opens the foot pedal setting page.)
3. Select the desire function(s) of each pedal from the menu.
4. After selecting the pedal functions, press button #6 (Save).
5. When the save window opens, using the numbered buttoms at the bottom of the display, provide a name for these settings, then press the bottom of the #8 (OK) button to finalize the save function.

How difficult was that to understand? The option you offer, Diki is to look in the online features list, which says "You can save the pedal function." Wonderful! Now, all you need is an hour to find the correct buttons and pages to select from in order to perform that task.

Yes, there are lots of resources on the Internet, including this forum, that can provide you with that information. Of course, that's if you know where and how to search for that specific information. Not everyone does. Not everyone has your level of expertise when it comes to searching the Internet for a specific topic, and many have little or no technical expertise at all. When I was a young, aspiring journalist, which was longer ago than I would like to believe, an internationally known outdoor writer, Lefty Kreh, said to me "In order to communicate with people you need to use the least amount of words with the least amount of syllables to get the point across." He was right on the money! Lefty has authored more books than any outdoor writer in the world, his books have been published in several languages, and every one of them is a how-to, where-to instruction manual that is easy to read. If the arranger keyboard manufacturers only followed his lead I suspect their sales would far exceed their current level.

I think we are both pretty much saying the same thing, but we tend to communicate somewhat differently.

Gary

In the old days manufactures could spend time on writing an instruction manual as the instruments were simple, and the costs involved where not great, (They could also easily charge more for their instruments as competition was minimal, (No Internet or online sales)) however these days instruments are so comprehensive it would take a lot of hours (And cost) to go into every detail, however this additional cost could not be passed on to the consumer as if they did it would no longer be competitive with their competition, (Consumers these days want the cheapest price they can get) thus there is no incentive.

Printing cost and paper are also expensive, this is why most manufactures no longer supply a printed manual (Except a quick start guide) and provide the manual on a disc or make you download it online.

Before the internet, communication between owners was small, now any owner can get help from any other owner, which again reduces the incentive to the manufacture.

Finally (And only the consumer can take the blame for this, in spite of all the moaning they do) while some users would be prepared to pay a little extra to get a comprehensive manual, (As an add on) it would in a very short space of time be uploaded to the net so that nobody would have to pay for it, thus all the work done by the manufacture would make them no profit, which is a big disincentive to anybody. (The same happened with styles (Bought or manufactures styles) which are banded about free of charge on the net (The users saying I’ve bought it so I can do what I want with it) thus creating a disincentive for manufactures to produce more. (These same users also complain that manufactures are not producing enough styles for their instruments, whereas in reality they only have themselves to blame)

Bill

I guess maybe I'm one of the lucky ones. I can do two things that others seem to find hard. The first would be to look in an index, and if I need information about the footpedals, look under the letter F and lo and behold! There it is... Pretty difficult, I admit, but once you learn the alphabet, and to read, not all that difficult. And secondly, to TRY things out. If you back up your memory (probably the very first thing I look in a manual for information about), what's the worst that can happen? Push buttons... press things. See what happened.

Just like a baby, if you never progress past NEEDING to be spoon-fed, you are dependent on others your whole life. And you never discover something new, something your spoon holders never knew, maybe even something the manufacturer never knew!

Nobody's life hangs in the balance operating an arranger. No-one will die if you don't follow a proscribed step by step to achieve a specific goal. Truth is, the same people that can't figure out an arranger from the manual can't program their DVR's or figure out how to book a flight from their cell-phone.

But most people can.