It's such a shame that yamaha has produced such a stellar sounding instrument and then hamstrung it so it so it's full creative potential can only be truly realised if you purchase more gear . It would have cost nothing to have a more detailed sequencer onboard and editor . They already have that on their other workstations . Such a pity

I would advise you to evaluate the type of music you play. I would recommend the Tyros 4. The voices are unmatched by anything on the market. The OS is easy to understand and the keyboard is feature packed. That is a wonderful price for a T4. The other thing to consider is the quantity of support and styles for the Tyros are unmatched by any other manufacturer.

That's certainly true to my ears ! But I want and need a true workstation arranger hybrid and tyros really loses out even compared to my 10 year old pa1x as a workstation. Love the tyros sounds but can't live without onboard sequencing and editing features . It really is a deal breaker unfortunately .

Most manufactures are moving their advanced editing facilities off-board and onto tablets, (Logical has they have bigger and better touch screens) so you may find the T5 will do the same.

Take your keyboard to a pro music shop and have listen to it through some quality speakers as you will be amazed how good it sounds. (Sometimes a little inconvenience can save you a lot of money)

Yamaha and Korg are 2 different types of sound, CD (Yamaha) and Live (Korg) also don’t be deceived by online demos as the pro ones use £1000s of external equipment which is beyond most users.

Forget the Yamaha Tyros speakers as they are a complete total disaster and make it sound like a wind up gramophone. (Hence you won’t find any pro using them)

If your new to arrangers then the Yamaha OS is the easiest to get into whereas the Korg is a pain in the backside, however if you are used to a Korg then you will find the Yamaha OS is very difficult to get into (They are completely diametrically opposed) so try before you buy.

Although it’s a bit more hassle I would still consider adding a laptop and some VSTs via Midi, as the T5 and all arrangers are still years behind the pro market in both quality of sound and editing.

Hope this helps

Bill

I think you've answered your own question, spalding.

The thing that occurs to me is, why do you want to avoid the easiest, most cost effective, most powerful way to record and compose music available today?

The computer.

Even the most sophisticated workstations, let alone the latest greatest arrangers, come a VERY distant second to the power, ease of use and quality of sounds available to computer users.

Sure, you need an arranger in the first place to perhaps speed up the initial composing and comping process, but trying to shoehorn the entire process into one keyboard is, IMO, unnecessarily cramping your style, limiting your options, and putting a self-imposed limit on how good the sounds you use are...

There is no comparison between the better VSTi's and keyboard sounds nowadays. No matter HOW good the arranger sounds, there's a VSTi (often at a cost of a 20th of the arranger, even less when you consider a $5000 Tyros!). There is no comparison between the ease and power of recording audio and manipulating it on a nice 27" screen rather than a tiny 4" window, nor does any arranger have as high quality a suite of effects for any conceivable need.

Personally, I would recommend the least expensive arranger you can get away with, in fact, maybe stick with the PA1X you already have. It's enough to quickly record a MIDI rough of the tune (plenty of PA3X to PA1x style conversions out there, plus a ton of other manufacturer styles have been converted). But combine this with a computer, a nice DAW, and a suite of VSTi's and a loop library, and you can make music no one arranger ever will...

Is there any particular reason other than technophobia that is preventing you wanting to use the BEST tool for the job?

I understand where you are coming from, Worth...I like having it all in my keyboard as well.

The Tyros4's sequencer's editing is fine for what I do, but the Korg beats it, being more powerful. However, I also like my Tyros4's ability to send the midi recording to it's on-board audio recorder...Elvis never has to leave the building.

I suspect Korg will come out with another TOTL arranger in the not too distant future, so PA3X instruments will be on the market, and since you are comfortable with Korg's OS, it should be a strong consideration.

The PA3X is a fair jump from your own PA-1X, especially with the DNC voices, and has nearly as good third party support as Yamaha.

Good luck, my friend. If you do get a Tyros4, that offer of my personal styles still applies , but I really think you'd be better served by the Korg.

Ian

Thanks for the response Ian and Dikki. I am not a technophobe. I use computers at work all day. The last thing I want to do when I get home is to switch on the computer. But the thing is when I switch on my keyboard I start to play as I start to play I get ideas and as I get ideas I start to compose and as I start to compose I use the sequencer on the instrument along with styles I might start to form. Or I might just straight sequence everything from scratch . And I use all the onboard features to quite a defined degree. Then I take my music onboard the instrument to choir meetings and play from the keyboard my ideas with the choir and if they like it fine. If not then I might edit the piece whilst I am there , copy and paste the chorus with a key change , add new brass lines , bass lines etc so the instrument is integral to how I work . That's my work flow ,that's why I love having an on-board all in one package on my keyboard.

Also I'm a family man and therefore have limited space even for my keyboard set up at home .so space is a premium thing as is any free time .

Therefore anything that impedes my immediate workflow , no matter how more practical might seem to you Dikki actual has the opposite effect for me .

I am clearly not the only person who has a work flow like this as most workstations actually have a pretty decent onboard sequencer and sound editor . I'm fact all the pro workstations have this kurzweil yamaha motif korg roland fantom s,x,and g !

I predicted many years ago on synthzone that workstations and arranger keyboards will meld into a single pot of performance instruments. The Motif has come the closest to this and it may well be my next "arranger keyboard ".

The Motif is not an "arranger" - I repeat the Motif is not and "arranger". I have owned three of them and they are no doubt among the tops for synth/workstation work, but their design is wrong for arranger type playing. I have also had three Tyros keyboards and now a Korg so I feel MHO has some merit.

You may be spot on tho that the Motif would be better suited for the type work methodology you use.

Bill G

For me, it is a balance between workflow and quality of final results...

In a perfect world, you could do it all in the keyboard, but there would be a nice 27" monitor attached, to make seeing everything you need easy on the eyes. And a mouse input, to navigate with quickly, and make quick selection possible.

But short of some of the TOTL 'computer in a keyboard' instruments (Neko, Mediastation, etc.), the price you pay for being able to sit at a keyboard and do it all is FAR less ease of use. And ease of use is what it appears you are after. One of the problems you have with a 'one box' solution is that, all you get is what that one box can do. If this is up to your standards, I guess you are good to go. But personally, I find that the arranger output is only the START of the process. After that comes considerable editing and replacement of arranger parts with played ones, addition of considerable loop audio, and then replacement of the arranger's sounds with better sounds from either other keyboards, or VSTi's.

THEN... you have whatever audio you want to record, from as basic a thing as a simple vocal (never really that simple if you want to comp together multiple takes!) to backing vocals, to real guitar parts. And here, the computer is king. No arguments at all. From easy comping, to insert effects far beyond what the arranger can do, to ease of identification of what track does what, to a track count no arranger can match...

In fact, there really isn't an arranger that can handle multi-track audio without horribly convoluted workarounds. Most of them have simple 'one take' audio recorders that offer little control, if any. If all you want to do is record your voice singing the song (from beginning to end, better not make a flub in the middle!) you are probably good to go. And if that's all you intend to do, sure, have at it. But I think you'll find yourself wanting to put on a bit more polish than that, after a while.

Maybe you just want to record quick and dirty song demos, roughs that won't see the light of day, but if you want to record something more professional, I'm afraid a computer is going to have to be a part of your arsenal. Look, it might seem a bit daunting to start with, but it's just the same as mastering any modern TOTL arranger. It's going to take a while. But, at least with the computer, there is no artificial upper limit to what you can do. You'll be banging the ceiling on any modern arranger, trying to record a complete song on it.

And, in the end, the computer you buy will be a tiny fraction of what something like a PA3x or T5 is going to cost you, and you can always go laptop, if you can't get access to the house computer for music making. But it's power is exponentially better.

In the end, it comes down to what you want to do. If all you want is a quick sketchpad, the arranger will do in a pinch. But if your plans include any audio and a finished master, you are going to find arrangers severely limiting.