We talk a lot about design improvements and features; particularly when new boards (like the T5) are introduced.

Yet, some of the best players here and elsewhere are content with, say 10 style settings and a descent selection of tones.

Uncle Dave is one here who puts musicianship above technical programming expertise.

Likewise, here and elsewhere, some of the least talented players are the biggest gear heads.

Same is true on the film/photography and graphics fields. While it is necessary to know enough to get the job done, it looks to me, for instance, that the dude who knows every nuance of a lens is rarely more than an adequate, usually uninspired, photographer.

The only gear head I know who is also a superior practitioner is our man Diki.

What do you think?


Russ (can't change a battery in a flashlight) Lay

Well, i am an electronics engineer and ICT man in real life.. which reflects on my hobby i guess, making music with computers and synths and arrangers. making music makes me relax.

Have to admit that my technical skills are on the other opposite of the spectrum as my musical skills, and i dont aspire to be a Jordan rudess, as long as i can make the synths do what i want them to do, and make my arrangers sax sound as close to a real sax, i am happy..

As a technician however i am very much interested how sound is created and how it can be controlled and even programmed. I am as far from a performing musician as you can probably get on these boards. Yet making music is fun and like said many times before, it makes me unstress after a long days of work.

Bachus has described himself as a serious hobbyist and that's great. That means that he is much more likely to push the technical envelope than your average pro musician who is probably leaning much more towards the (purely) musical side of things. So if the question were "who is more likely to push manufacturers for newer and more spectacular features, the musician or the technophile, I'd say the technophile. Whether or not they would be the RIGHT features to make a true musician a better player is up for question. The musician wants a Stradivarius, the technophile wants a lightweight plastic replica with a built in sampler and an off/on switch.....and oh yeah, it should also have good brass and guitars.

As to the original question, musicianship or technical expertise, I would have to say musicianship; for the simple reason that one can be taught (learned), the other, not so much.

JMO,

chas

Being a hobbyist myself, I don't care at all about programming registrations and utilizing all the options an arranger keyboard gives me.

I can become technical (I think I tried most of the Tyros' functions once), but for me, playing is the pleasure, not hours of programming, even if it makes life easier.

I fully agree with the last sentence of chas.

I think I'm neither a gearhead or a superior practitioner, so I'd better not comment.
So here's my comment. We are playing arrangers (name of forum). They are computers with keys and buttons for control. It's o.k. to want the one that seems to be best suited for our needs. One would think that the newer models are more advanced so a lot of us want one.
Uncle Dave may not be a gearhead, but he sure tries everything that comes along that may advance his proficiency at what he does, entertain. Boards that I remember he had include X1 and several other Ketrons, several Yamahas, a few Rolands and several Korgs. He makes 'em all sound great, by the way.
I forget the point of the thread now, but at least it isn't about the latest T5 demo.

I guess I'm not a gearhead - I just use the best tools at my disposal to get the job done efficiently and effectively. Yeah, I know the innards of my personal equipment, but that's as far as it goes. I'm not nearly as talented as most of the folks on this forum and freely admit to this flaw in my musical skills. But, I do manage to get the jobs done, and my calendar is always filled to capacity so I must be doing something right. Like DonM I've even made hundreds of dollars doing this.

Cheers,

Gary

Gary, I still have the same gear I started with since I rejoined the music world and I too now can claim that I've also made hundreds of dollars, so I know that I'm not a techie.

For my work as a clinician/demonstrator, I had to know the instrument's features/functions very well (technical knowledge), and have the musicianship to present the instrument properly.

I tend to treat keyboards as musical tools, and spend time learning to operate them effectively, but, I also spend a good deal of time every day to keep my chops up.

I need both skills, but if I was to choose the more important one to me...it would be musicianship.

Ian

Boo, we're both too poor to be techies - that takes more money than we've made.

Gary

Truth be told few people have raw natural talent that sets them apart from the masses. Sure there are exceptions, but natural talent that borders on virtuoso or prodigy isn't as common as one might think.

In my experience you either have innate talent or you don't. Anyone can learn to play and instrument but few are born masters of their instrument. Those I've met who were taught how to play usually lack that certain something that sets them apart from the pack. Again there are exceptions but rare ones at that.

I could learn to play guitar but I'd never play like Chet Atkins or Eddie Van Halen no matter how much I practiced. Same goes for Piano. Just because I can strike the keys doesn't make me Mozart, far from it.

The biggest thing I've learned from being in the music business for so long is true talent is rare and mediocrity is the norm. I'm always amazed when I see live talent just how bad the majority of it is. The problem is too many people coddle those near them, praise them even though they lack talent, and propagate the sea of mediocrity in the music world. I don't profess to be a great musician but I do have the common sense to know my abilities or lack thereof. I've been fortunate enough to do well playing music, composing music, recording music, and helping others. I play music for myself and if others like it, great. If not that's fine too.

The one reality most people don't want to face is reality. Lack of talent is exactly that and few people can take criticism well be it constructive or otherwise.

As for gear... I'm no technofile but I make it a point to learn my equipment to use it to its full potential. No amount of gear can make up for lack of ability no matter how much money you spend. It would be pointless for me to know the inner workings of my gear if I couldn't play it.

Right on, Russ!
Whenever I visit a photography forum (my other hobby) I am amazed at the number of threads where people spend hours analyzing the sharpness of a lens or the amount of megapixels of a sensor and they buy these (very expensive) cameras or lenses to shoot awful pictures of their dogs or their sons blowing birthday candles.
Unfortunately some arranger keyboards players are not different: I have known personally at least two of them whose houses looked like a music store showroom and yet could not play a three notes chord.
Makes one think.

Andrea, I didn't know you were also into photography. What seemed like another lifetime ago I was a full time, freelance, outdoor writer and wrote outdoor columns for 25 publications, many of which, unfortunately are now gone. As such, I had to provide my publishers with photos for each article. Much of what I learned was from good friend and mentor Lefty Kreh, whom I consider among the world's greatest photographers. Lefty Kreh

Just as with the keyboard, it's the person behind the lens that makes the difference. I believe you do yourself an injustice when it comes to music - IMO you ARE a great player, and your technical expertise is second to none.

Cheers,

Gary

Gary, what can I reply to words like these?

Like you, I have always liked to travel and my cameras were the tools I relied on to collect my memories; on my website there is a collection of pictures taken through the years ( here and here and here, if you are curious) and now that things have changed I look at them and am happy that at least have places like those to remember.
I have seen on Wikipedia that your friend Lefty Kreh is considered THE authority on fly fishing: how cool is that?

And you are really too kind; I, on the other hand, tend always to see what I could do to improve myself, in every possible way. I would really love to record a new song to share with you and all the other Synthzone friends. I hope to do that during the Christmas Holidays.
All the best

Andrea

Thanx for the shout, Russ ... I admit, I used to be WAY more into "stuff", but these past few years, since I started teaching ... I have shifted more thana few priorities. The thing I miss most about my old life was the extra hours I had to enjoy hanging out with my posse (Fran and Donny) - breakfast, road-trips, retail therapy sessions .... we had a great time. Now my days are filled with wide eyed (on a GOOD day) teens who eat up my every word as we share the "sound of music" together. (BTW - the Live TV broadcast tonight with Carrie Underwood was an embarrassment. She's terrible .... sang in bad keys, tried to "fluff up some runs", bad acting, terrible diction. She's a novice on a real stage. Next to Audra McDonald, she looked like a "Doe, a deer" in the headlights, but I digest ...)

I've never been a clinician, or a "player's" player, but I do pride myself on having the right "feel" for what I try to sell. I treat my voice as the main ingredient, then bass, piano (usually Rhodes) and drums next ... in THAT order. I can play all night long with those three elements under my lead vox and not get bored. I certainly love all the bells and whistles that the newer gear packs, and I USE alot of it, but my staple, bread & butter sound has been, and always will be:
Voice, Rhodes, bass, and drums.

Arrangers, MP3's sequences ... all icing on my musical cake. Maybe someday, I'll learn a few of those prettier chords that Russ and Boo like to use - you know, the ones that AREN'T really in the songs ... (smile), but for now, it simply is a poor use of my time to invest any more "tech time" into my rig or my act. I know hundreds (thousands, maybe) of tunes, I adapt quickly, get loads of referral business, and manage to enjoy myself in the process. Win/win, right?

So, thanx, Russ ... nice to be thought of from time to time. Love to come visit again real soon ... if you ever get a real coffee shop out there in horsey-town.

Don - you're right ... there are not too many major brands that I haven't tried. Wersi and Tyros are the only two big-boys that I never wanted. Chocolate and Vanilla, I guess.
Peace, all.

Ensnareyou

You got it. today if anyone can half a** carry a tune, even in a bucket, they're out there doing there thing with canned backing. Very little dedication to learning a craft or talent involved. Actually an easier gig then being a good DJ.
Your also correct in that the really great ones have some sort of innate talent that no amount of practice can equal. IE: one of my favorites Erroll Gardner. Couldn't read a note. How about Art Tatum, where did all that come from ? LOL 1 The list goes on.

+ 1

I studied piano for quite a number of years and once upon a time I had pretty fair sight reading skills............but the bottom line no matter how much I practice(d) always considered myself a "Frustrated" musician. I've had my share of success in life ..........but the one thing has evaded me is real success in the music world I guess it's the same reason I chose a different career path many years ago. When I hear some of those here who earn their living playing music I think why do I even bother...........but I know I enjoy playing even if I only play a couple gigs a month.

Musician or technical expertise? Neither.

I could have made a lot more money in another field. (In fact I did on a couple of occasions.) However there's something about succeeding, at least at some level, at what you love doing that's really satisfying.
Most people who try to make it as an entertainer don't really treat it as a job. You have to take care of business, in addition to being at least a passable musician or singer.
I learned to read music as a trumpet player, and that skill helped me in learning to play keyboard, but it's not the way I play now. Just learn the chord structure and play the melody and/or fills around that. Sounds simple now.

Errol Garner couldn't read a note... but he happened to have perfect pitch, which means that you hear a note and can instantly name it (C, Eb, Bb, etc) or even correctly identify all the notes within a chord. Pretty useful when you are trying to learn a song and don't have a music sheet or maybe want to transcribe a solo.
I haven't had such a luck and so, when I started playing the guitar (around 15 years), spent hours with my ear glued to the gramophone to understand what the guy was playing exactly; I even slowed down the speed from 33 to 16 rpm, but of course the pitch went down as well...
Today we have transcriptions and all kind of pitch-shifting devices, but I still get frustrated when I am playing a song and then try a little improvisation but soon run out of ideas or my fingers refuse to play what I hear in my brain, and then I regret not having had a proper education in music, so I could at least play all those scales up and down the keyboard.
But here again technology helps: I can record a track at a time, correct my mistakes redoing small bits instead of the whole song and finally come to a result that leaves me somehow satisfied.
The most difficult part has been stopping regretting not to be a better player and instead accepting my own limits: within those limits music has given me a lot of pleasure and, when I am deep immersed in the arranging process, often come up with musical ideas that really surprise myself.
I consider this a gift from the Heavens and can only guess what kind of elation must give composing a whole song, especially one of those timeless classics that we still enjoy to play.

Love your attitude Doc! We all can learn from it!
I do envy those with perfect pitch. I have a friend who is blind and can tell you instantly any or all notes in a chord, or even a just a fistful of random notes. He said he can best define the gift as seeing the notes as we see colors. Every one has a unique identity and doesn't sound like any of the others. Right!
He also told me that it is sort of a curse as well, because if there is an off note anywhere it jumps out at him like a snake.

I'm a bit similar, Don. I tried music lessons a long time ago but quit early on - kept getting ahead of myself. Fast ears an' all that. While I don't have perfect pitch, I'm strong on relative pitch, which I think is the nub of being able to play, not virtuoso in the grand sense, but for everyday, all-purpose gigging it works just fine. And I sing well and on pitch. That's pitch relativity kicking in again. For who knows what reason, I was just born with this stuff and I think I've used the gift well.

Think of all the pleasure you've brought to people over the years. That's a nice contribution to have made to the world. And let's hope we can continue to do that for as long as possible.

I have close to perfect pitch, and, if I am hired to play a house piano that is even slightly out, it literally makes me sick.

Dave, if you ever were able to come back, I'd clear the schedule for a week. We just touched the surface of the instruments last time. I'd take the week to visit all the places in town I played years ago...haven't been in some of them for years. We'd visit Louisville, where I'm now involved in a 2nd guitar club in a school with disadvantaged kids.

Teaching is such a noble thing to do, and teaching music is even better.

And old "heart on the sleeve" Dave is the perfect guy to do it!


Best regards, all,


russ

Andrea, one of my greatest regrets is, I worked for years as a commercial photographer; mostly taking photos of circuit breakers, metal boxes, banks, magazine illustrations, etc.

All work was on deadline. Half was done with large format (4"x5" or 8"x10"view cameras. Still use them with digital backs).

I traveled to 4 locations (Dallas, Cedar Rapids, Chicago, Lexington) where I had complete audio, still photo, print and video production set-ups.

Thing is, I NEVER did photography for fun. Sadly, I never even took lots of photos of my kids.

Today, I'm still cranking out illustrations. This week I have done images of storage buildings from a client in Australia,
staircase kits from a client in Italy, floor coverings from a client in Israel, horse farm photos for a magazine and more. In the end, I do copy, design and production for packaging or the final print piece.

Wish I could stop and enjoy the art form the way I should, and you obviously do.

Sadly, the most boring photography pays the most, as does the most boring or uninspired music.

Sometimes, I feel like I have sold out.


Russ

I know what you are feeling, exactly, Andrea, because you could have been describing me ...
The best part comes when we are playing for others and we KNOW they are fully enjoying it - whether it be in a NH/assisted living facility/ fancy restaurant/whatever ... this past Wednesday I played a gig in NJ with the guitar player from our NY band days ... while singing a particular song I caught the faces of a few people who - to me - apparently were conversing about how good it sounded ... there is no other feeling like it for an entertainer ... now perhaps they were discussing how good the dinner was, but I have no idea why they would be looking at me while doing so ...

Exactly, Tony. That's what I was getting at when I said think about all the pleasure you've given people over the years. Very worthwhile.

I was a serious photographer also. As advertising manager for a large oil company, I was able to use the latest gear and dark room. Even had a black and white darkroom in my house for years.
We had some neat cameras including Hasselblad, Speed Graphic, some Nikon 35s, etc.
My favorite personal camera for years was a Mamiyaflex twin lenses 2 1/4. Not terribly expensive but a great camera!
I still have some pretty good cameras in the closet somewhere, but of course digital is so much easier now.

For me, Marty Harris has a real nice combination of musicianship and technical savvy...he was heavily involved in design and content of Tyros models, but the man can play pretty darn good too.

Here he is on the "old" Tyros4...Boo and Russ should like this one.

Yes, and the thing that impressed me most was the way he changed his phrasing going from the saxophone to the organ, then to the electric guitar; this is the mark of a good demonstrator and shows that he spent hours analyzing the way each instrument has to be played to sound authentic.

WOW !!!

I'm a firm believer that if you enjoy music and it makes you happy that's all that matters. I do hold paid performers to a certain standard though. Some people have great chops but lack showmanship, others the polar opposite. There can be a happy medium that pleases a broad based audience and is worthy of getting paid. However, what I've generally encountered in the real world are performers lacking technical ability, musicianship, and stage presence. To have all three is an anomaly but even having two of these traits will serve you well.

It's damned disappointing to go to see and hear live music only to feel cheated hearing so called pro's getting paid to propagate mediocrity. How these performers can't hear just how bad they truly are is beyond me.

I'm not what I would classify a great musician but I was given near perfect pitch and the ability to play most anything by ear. Even then if I felt I couldn't do a song justice no way in he'll would I play it for anyone else to hear let alone expect to get paid to play it. If only others could hold themselves to a similar standard.

The biggest eye opener in our abilities as a musician or performer, or lack thereof, is meeting those with innate talent given from a higher power. Until you've witnessed such a thing in person, you can't imagine the awe of it.

Thanks for the shout out, Russ.

I've always kind of loved BOTH sides of the coin. From when I was in high school and a friend and I built a pretty decent sized kit modular synthesizer, with patch cords (might have been a matrix pinboard, come to think of it), I've always loved synths. Grew up to Stevie Wonder and Keith Emerson's synth stuff, Yes and Genesis, so the technical side of things back then were absolute necessities, there were no keyboards with presets designed to sound like your favorite patches... you had to PROGRAM the patches, on stage or at home, while the band played (often with your LH while your RH was playing!).

No shortcuts back then.

But... if you wanted to play Rick Wakeman, or Keith Emerson, there also weren't any sequencers, and just getting the sound close wasn't going to get it done, you HAD to learn to play it! So, the other side of the coin is at least as important, too. In fact, TBH, you can play your heiney off an some pretty sub-par gear, and impress most anyone, but you nail the sound and then suck on the notes, you might as well not have bothered!

So I always tell anyone who asks, get the MUSIC part down first. Then worry about the gear. But worry about it you should!

Particularly when doing emulative playing, nothing beats LISTENING first. Don't even TRY to play like a guitarist, or a sax, or a string section, or a vibraphone player etc., until you have listened to so much of your target instrument that you instinctively know what's right and wrong. That way, you don't spend much time on licks and phrases that the real thing just wouldn't play. In fact, TBH, it really isn't that important to be able to play ANYTHING that the real thing can... but it's REAL important to NOT play anything the real thing wouldn't!

You'll impress the heck out of someone with just a few well shaped licks and phrases, but you'll ruin it by just ONE unauthentic lick. So, all in all, it's probably better to know what NOT to play than what to play...!

In my experience, there have been few keyboards I've ever played that the factory stuff couldn't use improving. Maybe just a filter tweak, or an EQ change, or just dialing in the velocity response so it fits how YOU play, rather than the guy who programmed it, but it's rare that something is just perfect OOTB. This is perhaps the finbal step. You got the chops, you got the gear, now make it YOURS. I get the heebies just thinking that someone else might sound just like me! Hopefully, you do too! Go make your OWN sound...

The thing about new capabilities in our arrangers and workstations is, hopefully, it's something that helps create better realism from the playing we already do. I'm not a big fan of tricks that require you to change already learned and ingrained techniques for voicing, etc., just things that take what you already do well, and make it sound more realistic.

A lot of the new SA2 and SN or DNC type patches, if you ALREADY can voice like guitars or horn sections etc., simply make what you do more realistic. I'm not a big fan of the triggered sampled phrases (the gliss licks upwards, or the auto-hammer ons, etc.), I've already spent a fair bit of time learning how to get those tricks simply by playing them, but the better gear now is capable of recognizing that you just PLAYED a hammer-on, and now switches to samples that actually do it, or that you just went from an octave tutti brass phrase to a full chord, and it splits out the component brass instruments and has each one play just ONE of the notes. That stuff is fantastic!

But all in all, I think it's better to learn how to do that stuff properly first, THEN get the gear that helps it out. I heard a T5 demo here recently that showcased the new Ensemble stuff, but TBH, it fared very poorly (compared to some pro stuff that I'd heard use the feature) because the guy simply wasn't voicing it right in the first place.

Playing emulative keyboards, I guess, you really do need the full package. The gear without the chops won't get it right. And the chops without the gear won't sound QUITE as good. But of the two, the chops is the thing to have..!

Truth of the matter is, if all the time many of us spent obsessing and posting about gear here were simply spent PRACTICING, methodically, patiently, purposefully, I'm sure that you would be amazed at what more you can dig out of the gear you already have. But hoping that new gear without all the practicing is somehow going to be a magic bullet for you is just unreasonable. TBH, I don't think I have ever heard anyone here sound significantly better simply by buying the latest arranger. If they sounded mediocre on the old gear, they sound mediocre on the new. If they sounded great on the old gear, they seldom sound THAT much better...

But if you can find the time to practice, to find a musical goal (let's say you want to do better guitar solos, or better sax solos) and dedicate yourself to it for a few months (you're easily spending that much time simply talking about gear here!), you'll hear a huge improvement.

THEN maybe it's time to talk gear...!