Not sure if this has been featured before, however it does show the differences between them.

Enjoy

Bill

Thanks, quite a good approach.

there are far more similarities between workstattions and arrangers than most keyboard players actually realise and the clip does not make the buying decision any more clear unless they had absolutely no clue about arrangers and workstations. The differences highlighted in the video by Richie really only points to the features that the workstation does not have compared to an arranger rather than the features the arranger keyboard does not have compared to a Workstation. Contrary to how the difference were explained in the clip , Sound design/creation ,Editing, layering, Effects processing, sequencing and mastering are all features that the Arranger has to a lesser degree than a fully fledged workstation, granted , but more than sufficient for most keyboard musicians and would cover pretty much all bases for most workstastinattion users needs. He pointed to the ability to shift octave on a arranger to ilustrate i guess the ease of transposing a sound and then compared that to "deeper tweaks as you play " on a worksattion steering musiicians down the worksattion route for greater sound editing , filters modulation etc when clearly arrangers can do this too. By steering musicians down two distinct paths, it only serves to make money for the manufacturer but in reality, one board (the arranger) would meet most of the needs of anyone making music through a keyboard.

I have yet to hear any music composed on keyboard where you could tell with your (eyes shut) whetehr it emanated from a dedicated workstation or an arranger workstation.

Good points however it’s not as simple as that.

If you’re working in a professional production environment (Where time is money) ease of use is required, (In particular building up sequences) now with a workstation it is a piece of cake to put a sequence together (Once you understand how it works) whereas to do the same in an arranger is slow and convoluted. (The results come out the same but the arranger takes a lot lot longer)

As far as layers go the workstation leaves all arrangers for dead, as they can easily layer 16 or more with splits and crossover layers, (Required for heavy production work) and there is no arranger built that comes anywhere close.

Sounds
Depends on the Workstation, however the Korg Kronos in the demo has real synth and effect engines built in (No samples required) that operate like the original synths that created them (FM, Wavetable, Analogue etc.) which gives a realism and control that no hardware arranger can even come close to.
As to the sampled sounds then they are of a much greater size (More samples per voice) than arrangers (In the Korg for example the piano alone is about 4 times the size of the entire PA3x sample memory) thus really standing out for realism. (Assuming you know how to play it that is)

Real time controls.
Virtually every parameter can be assigned to a knob or slider in a Workstation (Thus allowing the player to modify to his heart’s content with the twist of a knob) whereas the assignable controls and parameters in an arranger are more limited. (Nothing wrong with that as their designed for a type of player that just wants to press a button and everything is setup for them)

If you just need to stick something together quick (Like a demo) the arranger blows the Workstation out of the water, but when it comes the final mix then the arranger is too slow and limited to be of much use.

There is no reason why both could not be incorporated into one instrument, but no pro player will pay arranger prices for a keyboard, and arranger players will probably not use 95% of the features on-board, so having 2 keyboards targeted at the 2 different markets is quite logical.

The raw deal is for the arranger players, as they are charged over the odds for antiquated technology. (For example the T5 has sounds and features that are at least 5 years old in the pro world, but because Yamaha has put them together in an easy play format (Press a button and everything is done for you) home players (the primary target of arranger manufactures) absolutely love it, and don’t mind (Or don’t realise) their paying through the nose)

Bill

If you try to sequence an entirely original piece of music note for note instrument by instrument on any hardware or software sequencer the process is likely to be very similar. It doesn't matter if the sequencer is in an arranger keyboard like the Korg PA products or the Kronos workstation .

Both workstation user and arranger player would use the instrument to flesh out the main shape of their song or production. That will involve manually playing each instruments ,the chords rhythms and some of the effects. But anyone using a workstation professionally to produce anything more than a rough sketch will more than likely use a computer to do the mastering and mix down of the finished product.

You can do that on an arranger or synth workstation .

You can talk all day about the extent to which sound can be manipulated, or how many synth engines are on the Kronos or how many different effects can be applied to an individual track. But it's clear that a great deal can be done in terms of sound manipulation on a korg arranger and not simply just transposing the notes an Octave !

And just how many synth engines does anyone need for 90% of the music that is produced today? How many hit songs were composed and produced entirely by one work station ? None or virtually none .

Listen to any Kronos demonstration and you will hear the same kinds of sounds or similar sounds used on the Korg arranger . They are mainly pianos electric pianos organs stringed instruments horns percussion and pads . The same demos are used on almost all workstations in terms of the selection of instruments chosen. Does it take 9 synth engines to do that ?The answer is no ! Are those same sounds found on an arranger keyboard? The answer is yes. So who are these pro workstation demonstrations aimed at if they are using the same sounds you can find on an arranger and sequencing in the same way I do on my korg arranger ? Strange

Hi Spalding

You have obviously never used a Workstation or a DAW (I have) as I can assure you there is no arranger on the market that cones anywhere close to the speed a sequence can be setup on a Workstation or DAW. (That you find the manipulation of sound on an arranger is as good as a Workstation or DAW also shows you have never used one, because I can assure you there is just no comparison)

As to the quality of the sound, then if you listen through a high quality sound system (Forget computer speakers and on-board sound chips) I can assure you that if you compared the same voices on a PA3x and a Kronos, the PA3x sounds constricted in comparison. (On its own the PA3x sounds great, but is way short of a Workstation or VST instrument, also don’t underestimate the importance of effect engines as they can make or break a sound)

Here’s something for you to do, download a free DAW and some VST Plug-ins (Sound & Effects) Just do a quick Google search to see what takes your fancy, (Make sure the DAW can host plug-ins) and have a good play about with it, (It will take a few weeks to get used to it and find out about it) and you will wonder why you ever thought that your PA1x was a comprehensively equipped instrument suitable for production. (For its role an arranger is a great instrument to use, but no way can it replace a Workstation or DAW. (And vice versa)

Bill

You need to read my post again bill . I did not say that the sounds were the same quality on any keyboard whether arranger or workstation or that the manipulation of the the sounds were the same . I made the point that the arranger can do much deeper sound editing than just transposing octaves contrary to what the demo might lead folkes to believe . And I am not sure you have ever sequenced any original music at all on either workstation or arranger workstation . I have and the process is very similar as I described above . Here is a demo of creating a song on the Kronos http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7JHf1XqzBOU . The process is very similar to what I do on my pa1x . Not the same but very similar .

The detail of the extent the finished song can be mastered most likely will be finished on a daw just like any other workstation but the process of playing in to the sequencer the instruments , copying and pasting , overwriting ,over dubbing quantising ,micro editing , adding strength of swing , editing specific notes punching in and out , muting tracts to solo parts adding effects to tracks and the strength of those effects using the mixer , panning instruments detuning and so on are all similar to the functions on a workstation . Yes the workstation can go deeper , that is a given but in 90percent of the cases where a musician fleshes out a production they will finish it on a computer and not the keyboard itself in any case .

The general point I'm making is that the similarities between workstations and arrangers such as the korg range are more similar than different. Similar does not mean the same . And most workstation users would be very surprised by what can be achieved on an arranger keyboard workstation similar to what could be achieved on a traditional workstation ,and the speed that it can be done as I have demonstrated to my pro and semi pro musician friends week after week .

That's the simple point I am making . These dumbed down demos don't represent anything like what an arranger is actually capable of and in my view misrepresents the tools available on a totl arranger

Hi Spalding

1st point, I have been using Midi & sequencing since the middle 80s (Pretty much since Midi came out) and I can assure you producing a sequence then was way more difficult than now (But it gave a great grounding), by the early 90s I had left the organ/arranger keyboards behind (They were not developing fast enough for me, Not even the Wersi & Bohm) and went over to a full computer based play/music production system (Still have a lot of it, but more modern) and also embraced VST when they came out in the middle 90s.

The main downside was that the equipment was not suitable for having in the lounge which was a bit of a bummer, however in 2002 I found the Wersi which allowed me to load (Or had included) a lot of computer stuff for playing with, (something up and till then (And still the same now) could not be done on any other hardware board) plus it could go in the lounge which is something I missed. (If it wasn’t for these features I would still be using a fully computer based setup in a separate room as my main music playing system)

The Korg Arrangers have always had in depth features, (They were spin offs from their Pro Line) but no way are they up to in depth music production or what I am used to for my personal entertainment.

The point that most home hobby players won’t use any of these in depth features I made in my previous post, however you are trying to say that arrangers can be used in a high speed production environment, and I can assure you they can’t. (They were never designed for this purpose (It’s like trying to go real off roading in a Ford Fiesta, you just can’t do it even though many of the features are the same as a Toyota Land Cruiser)

Bill

So Bill what is your process when sequencing an original piece of music? How do you play into your Wersi the actual Notes , chords , bass drums brass strings? How do you edit those things and how would you do it differently on a workstation like the Kronos compared to an arranger workstation like a pa3 x ? What are the key differences in the process ?

Do you have any examples of finished pieces that you have done solely on your Wersi ?

I would genuinely like to know the stages in process that you believe are so different .

Hi Spalding

I only use the Wersi for finishing off (Its used more as a computer software playback machine) as like all organ/arrangers there are not enough programmable real-time controls, whereas my controller keyboard has 8 rotary and 8 (+1) sliders that are all assignable to what parameters I require either on the controller itself or via software. (A controller keyboard is a Workstation without any sounds or software)

Over the years I have built up a vast amount of sequence tracks + modern software also includes 1000s of loops and sequences as standard, (Not forgetting the vast amount available on the web) all of which are a couple of clicks away (Hardware Organs/Arrangers only have a fraction of the capacity to store loops/sequence tracks, so you have to keep swapping loop/sequence tracks in and out or play every single track manually, combine this with the miserably small screens on most Organ/Arrangers and it becomes a herculean task to do anything quickly (Due the programmable real-time sequence controls on a workstation you don’t need a massive screen) particularly as most force you to jump between pages to get things done) and all in front of you.

The programmable real-time controls on workstations allow you to put together your ideas on the fly, whereas Organ/Arrangers force you to jump through hoops. (However this may change if what I am hearing comes to fruition)

Until Organ/Arrangers come with a comprehensive set of programmable real time controls they will always be relegated to basic tasks, plus in the Workstation/DAW environment it is about creating something unique, whereas an Organ/Arranger is about copying something with a theme (Big Band for example) which is where they score over Workstations/DAWs, as when you press a sound button all the programing has been done for you, rather than just giving you the basics.

If you have never got stuck into a Workstation or DAW then the arranger capabilities (Particularly the Korg) would seem quite advanced, but I can assure are nothing but a pain in the backside.

Bill

I don't know if I understood your answer bill . How do you create original pieces of music ? Do you acquire sequences and loops from the net or do you actually create your own original music ? Actually playing into the instrument or daw your your own beats sequences ? What is your process in making original music ? Do you have any examples you could share ?

I accept your point that a workstation is more advanced than an arranger workstation , that's never been the issue . Whether your controller keyboard has 8 plus 8 real time assignable knobs and mine just has 8 or you have access to many thousands of loops on the net (I do too by the way ) is really irrelevant to the point I am making about similarity .

Certainly your assumption about using an arranger to mimic big band music does not accord with what I do on mine .

In a few weeks I will have the authority to post up clips from my choirs DVD "praise is what we do 2 " and there is not a big band arrangement in sight 😀 (but you have given me an idea !) .

I pasted a clip of the Kronos tutorial done by a korg demonstrator using the onboard sequencer . The only element I would not be able to replicate on my ten year old arranger was audio recording and karma . Now before you say it I know that he was just scratching the surface of the Kronos workstation , yes that's true but similarly ( there's that word again ) I would be just scratching the surface of my korg arranger sequencer . He could have used the assignable knobs for additional functions etc (so could I on my korg pa ) He could have gone on to show how the assignable knobs could be used in the mixer to pan instruments , control master effects per track etc (as can my korg pa ) but in the basic demo he was showing the ease of use of the kronos sequencer . The process or work flow was very similar to my own . The true reason these demos are not done on an a arranger keyboard and only certain aspects of the arranger keyboard are emphasised is to keep the market segmented to increase profits .

HI Spalding

I have 1000s of sequence tracks (Not complete sequences) that I have played in and stored over the years, therefore to actually require something new is rare as I have done it all before. The part about the web etc. was that for new users you do not have to start everything from scratch (Which can be difficult when you are learning how to transfer what is in your head to the sequence) until you become more experienced.

When creating a sequence I either play or drag and drop what I want in the order that I want, and if necessary modify part of the sequence by using the punch in and out in overwrite mode. (All done using physical buttons on the controller) (The tracks are assigned to physical buttons on the controller)
Then I choose the sounds (Track by track) from lists and modify the parameters (Including any effects) using the rotary and sliders on the controller. (In real time without having to resort to menus or different screens)
All the tracks volume & pan are then assigned to the rotary and slider controls (A single button press) to get the balance ok.
Finally all the global effects are assigned to the rotary knobs and sliders (Again 1 button press) to finish off.
NOTE: During all this I have only used 1 screen and the real time controls, plus a few mouse clicks.

The file is then transferred to the mobile and plugged into the keyboard Midi, where I make the final adjustments (Using factory or user sounds if required) as the file is played, and then I save any changes required in pre-sets for live play. (I do not need any external memory as I have upped the default user pre-set number to 5000. (The total numbers that can be stored in the keyboard are only limited by disc size, so if I did want more pre-set slots it is easy to up the default number)

The above is why for creating original music the Workstation/DAW is spot on, and the arranger is not, (It does not have enough real time control forcing you to jump through hoops to get things done) l if on the other hand you want to create something of a specific genre then the arranger is better as the basis of what you want is probably already built in.

Bill

Thanks for engaging in a discussion with me Bill . I am going to see what things I can control in real time in my sequencer using the 8 physical assignable sliders on my pa1x on the sequencer . I will get back to you with what I find . I have not explored everything on my keyboard so this is good for me .

Just so we are clear , can you do all the things you described above just using your controller keyboard or did you have to connect it to your daw ? And are you talking about the screen on your keyboard or computer ? I am not comparing my arranger or any workstation with daw .

Arrangers were considered toys in the late 90's and early 2000's but things have drastically changed for the better since then. The Technics KN7000 started to shake things up and then shortly thereafter the Tyros arrived on the scene and quite frankly it sounded as good, if not better, than some of the workstations at the time. Arrangers continue to get better and the features are in many cases cutting edge and highly functional. You don't find lyric scroll on workstations or certain other features like songbook, etc. On the other hand, arrangers usually won't have a *real* Sampler or professional sounding drum kits for that matter. Although the drum kits on the latest high-end arrangers have improved quite a bit, including those on the Tyros 5.

I owned the original Tyros as most people on this forum already know and I enjoyed it immensely but I ended up selling it after I purchased my Roland Fantom G7 (76 keys). Looking back I wish I had kept the Tyros but hindsight is always 20/20 they say. Arrangers are great composing tools and make great sketch pads for getting song ideas and the auto-accompaniment feature(s) come in very handy for that very purpose.

Arrangers are live performance keyboards and even though workstations can and are used for live performance they are also great in the studio and have certain features such as *real* samplers and multi-track recording which is something most arrangers don't offer. Workstations usually have professional quality sounds while mid-range and some high-end arrangers are usually a few notches down in quality by comparison. But the gap is shrinking and that's encouraging.

Auto-accompaniment is what makes an arranger an arranger and as such they are different beasts than your typical workstation keyboard. Workstations usually have drum 'beat' backing tracks and also arpeggiators but not full blown accompaniment obviously. Workstations can be more time consuming because of their comprehensive feature set, whereas, arrangers are basically 'grab and go' keyboards and are really fun to play. Keyboard players have different needs but in my opinion everyone should own a top notch arranger. They are great sketch pads for composing songs plus they are 'one man band' instruments and thereby allow a single person to become his or her own band - without the costs associated with a real band and they get to keep all the proceeds.

I'm still debating about getting a Korg Pa-900. I recently saw a Tyros 3 advertised for sale but I'm kind of leaning toward the Pa-900 since it would be brand new, with the latest technology (including after-touch), with a 2 year warranty if I'm not mistaken. Summer NAMM is right around the corner and it will be interesting to see what Korg and Casio have to offer. We already know the Pa4x is coming down the pike and I would really prefer something with 256 note polyphony although I'm not sure whether Korg will step up to the plate. Ketron is floundering but on the other hand Casio is up and coming. Roland is focusing mainly on the masses (as opposed to musicians) since most of their recent product releases haven't been very inspiring in my opinion. The BK-9 has some nice sounds but it also has a few shortcomings. Not the least of which are the two, low resolution, monochrome LCD screens that harken back to the 1950's. The Tyros 5 would be a great option if it didn't cost an arm and a leg. I'm not complaining I'm just critiquing. The best option seems to be the Pa-900 but I'll probably hold off until after summer NAMM. I might even wait until winter NAMM 2015 because the show in Anaheim focuses more on keyboards and by then the Pa4x should be on the market but who knows.

All the best, Mike

Thanks for coming into the discussion Mike. Your contributions been really helpful. Having looked at the YouTube clip of that initially started this thread involving Richie for Formidoni explaining the differences between korg arrangers and korg workstations. Do you agree or disagree that the advanced arrangers such as the Korg PA range are more similar than different to workstations in terms of traditional workstation use? For example sampling ,sound manipulation sequencing editing, composing mastering etc ? I think we are agreed that in terms of styles and live play and instant arrangements ,nothing can really compare to an arranger. But what I'm interested in , is establishing whether or not in your opinion (and I understand completely it's just your opinion,) whether or not arrangers such as the korg pa range can justifiably be considered capable workstations comfortable for studio use and not just a live play instrument . I would love to hear your views and others experience of using your arranger as a workstation .

OkAY, MY 2 CENTS WORTH. First, most people tend to strongly defend what THEY own, because it justifies a decision they've made (althouh few will admit to this bias). To me, 'the proof is in the pudding' and the pudding in this case is the professional (as in high-end, multi-million dollar) recording studio. In most such studios you will always find the following: 1. one or more top-of-the-line acoustic pianos 2. a mint-condition REAL B3/Leslie 3. one or more acoustic drum kits and 4. multiple synth/workstations. Rarely will you find an arranger keyboard, and if you do it will probably NOT be featured on any final-production tracks. Guitarist, BTW, tend to bring their own instruments to the studio.

Since cost is not a factor with these studios, one would have to conclude that the synth/workstation is the keyboard of choice for applications requiring non-acoustic sounds, sound effects, or acoustic simulations, AND where SOUND and FLEXIBILITY is the top priority. Apparently, this also carries over to TOP-OF-THE-LINE, A-LIST, PROFESSIONAL, live performances as well, including touring acts, TV bands, etc.

No one doubts or disputes how good an arranger can sound in the hands of a great player such as Marco Parisi, but let's face it; 1. the average DEDICATED arranger player is NOT a great player, and 2. the 'Marco Parisi's' of this world are more-than-competent players on ANY keyboard, including acoustic piano. Also, we all acknowledge how near-perfect arrangers are for OMB's playing (mostly) the NH circuit but these performers are booked mainly for their VOCALS and ENTERTAINMENT abilities. How many times have you heard arranger players tell stories of equipment malfunctions or the like, and did (or finished) the gig DJ'ing (without any complaints from their audiences). This would NEVER, NEVER, EVER happen in a jazz club or even a rock club (which featured live players). Maybe I'm straying off topic a little, but hopefully you see the point I'm trying to make (with NO animosity towards arranger keyboards or arranger players). Just the facts, mam'n, just the facts.

Okay, gotta go back to listening to Cory Henry (Snarky Puppy), one of the most exciting young players to come along in awhile. Take a listen, although it might make you never touch an arranger (or any other keyboard) again .

chas

thanks Chas. I have listened to Cory for the last 2 yaers now and he just inspires me to want to play more . He's the real deal for sure .

I am not in my corner saying that any arranger is the same as a dedicated workstation. Not at all.

But I am saying that the Korg pa arranger, ( I cant speak for other manaufacturers products) is more similar to a workstation than different. And I say that as someone that uses it 50% as a workstation .

clearly the majority of workstation users are not owners of multimillion dollar studios, they dont play out of the highest fidelity speakers, they dont often get paid and they dont play to the most discerning audiences who have come to hear the pristine sound of their latest aquisition.

Similarly, most multi-million dollar studios do not sequence all the tracks plug-in all the instruments microphones bases guitarists through one keyboard . Presumably because they have dedicated equipment for the specific purpose. But that doesn't stop most workstations and to some extent certain arrangers from having similar functions to these.

Is that fair comment so far ?

I would go further to say that most workstation users are in fact hobbyists and weekend warriors whose full-time job is not making music and so they are not concerned about buying the most expensive equipment or how long it takes them to craft some music for their own enjoyment or for others .

And there may be a few talented and dedicated enthusiasts that really get under the hood of their workstation and who knows, some one might say that 9 synth engines is not enough for their needs ..they need 12 and the Kronos does not cut it anymore. But i gaurantee you that a fair amount of them dont go much deeper into the full functionality of their workstation than some of us with our arrangers.

Nows thats just my personal view Chas and I accept it's not the Gospel truth or the most authoritative opinion . but it is based on my experience of working with keyboard musicians in particular and watching discussion on other keyboard forums and my own experience in making music.I understand you used to own a fantom G (maybe you still do) but i'll bet you have not got under the hood of that beast or your korg PA1X for that matter but it did not stop you from owning them and enjoying them .

Is that fair comment ?

the simple point I am making is that for most functions that a workstation user requires ,1 keyboard covers most (not all) the bases and its an arranger like the Korg PA. But its not marked that way for monetary reasons and not because of lack of features and functions.

Sometimes the tone of my postings doesn't come across very well. I am not trying to be argumentative .and I'm not defending any particular keyboard whether it's my korg PA 1X or my brothers motif Xs or my nephew's fantom x . All of which I have used . I'm just entering i hope in friendly discussion information and hopefully enlightenment about the capabilities of some of these tremendous instruments that we play but rarely fully utilise or are not even aware exist in most cases .

PS I am really pleased to see you posting on the forum every now and again. It's always a treat . I miss Ian and dare I mention the name Dikki too .

Chas, good points. I might add, though, that probably close to 100 percent of people who own or work in recordings studios are 100 percent ignorant regarding arrangers. They wouldn't know one if it bit them in the butt.
I'm betting a good keyboardist that fully understands arrangers could do recordings in the same studio and the public, listening to the finished product, could never tell the difference!
Good to hear from you, btw!

Hi Spalding

A DAW is nothing more than a hardware workstation on a computer, thus they are interchangeable. (The computer just has more capacity) The Kronos is essentially a computer DAW with all the same features (Including its own plug-ins) with the only difference being you have to use what Korg gives you, rather than being able to load in what you want.

I use my computer for main work as it has a nice 24” IPS panel to work with which is easier on the eye then the small 8.4” screen on my keyboard, (Might get round to changing it for a 10” one day) and another reason why Organ/Arrangers are not ideal for production. (Interestingly most arrangers that come out these days have software for the iPad which gets round this problem but adds quite a bit to the spend if you don’t already have one)

As my Wersi is in itself a computer I can also use the controller directly with it if required, however I also have a Korg nano Kontrol (Which can be picked up for about £40) if I want to add a bit more control when finalizing.

Sound/Synth Engines consist of Analogue (Additive & Subtractive), FM, Wavetable, Sampling, Modelling & Effects; if you have all of these in your keyboard/DAW then it covers everything that has ever been made. (Thus 6 engines is all you will ever need, although you can have multiples of them)

Korg Arrangers are dumbed down versions of their pro-line (Hence they are difficult for the layman to get under the hood) so that they could compete in the home market like other manufactures, the other manufactures have made their arrangers primarily for the home market from the start. (Yes I am aware that Korg made an auto accompaniment keyboard in the early 80s, but the line was never continued)

Bill

Hi Mike

I would steer clear of any Yamaha Organ/Arranger if you wish to use it as a controller, as they are very poor in this department, (The Korg will leave any of them for dead with this type of use) however as an expander they are brilliant, as virtually everything on-board can be accessed externally. (Takes a bit of working out as the manuals are not what they could be, but if you have a good understanding of Midi you can work it out)

You will also find Pro Studios have a set of networked Mac computers (Plus a couple of Windows computers) all connected to the hardware they have, in which they also have the best plug-ins available.

Spalding is correct about the vast majority are home studios, but once you have got used to a Workstation/DAW going back to doing everything on even the best arranger is just a pain in the backside. Spalding is also correct when he say for most users an arranger is all they will need, except one, in that they are way more expensive then Workstations and musicians hate spending money. However once you have got stuck into a Workstation/DAW then an Organ/Arranger becomes a pain in the backside.

Bill

Here's my take. I'll be in Atlanta; hopefully, with enough break to visit Chas, on the 7th, 8'th and 9'th. I'll be working on a video of an installation of an Italian staircase kit. I'll walk into the production with a rough of a score to familiarize the shooters with the attitude and tempo of the the piece. The rough will also go to Italy for the management folks to hear.

That rough will be done on an arranger. When I get the film to the next stage, I'll go into the studio to do the final score, and hire as many top players as the budget can support.

Why? Well, from a financial standpoint, the more I play, the less out-of-pocket. Many times, a lot of people will say, "why not use the first piece?".

Well, that doesn't meet MY EXPECTATIONS. Even my friend Rory, after listening to the rough I had Don post a while back, said, "what was wrong with the rough? Well, the guitars weren't real, the B-3 wasn't a B-3, I needed a real flute, etc. And, the project could support the improvements.

I'll do a project for a non-profit late next week and am toying with using an arranger for the score. That's because there is no budget for a full blown production. If the effort isn't satisfactory to me, I'll take the time to do a conventional multi-track production, with me playing all parts.

We'll see. The point is, whatever the project, you need to satisfy yourself; meet your expectations.

We ALL need to be PROUD of our projects.

Russ

But surely bill doesn't that mean I could connect my keyboard to a computer and do the same thing you do ? That's not anything like using a keyboard workstation in the manner the original clip at the start of this discussion set out when spelling out the differences between an arranger and workstation .

If I had a controller keyboard and a daw the entire workstation Comparison is redundant don't you think ?

And russ gave a great example of how he would use an arranger to flesh out a rough project then take it to a studio and get it done professionally . Much like a producer would use a workstation . The only thing I would add is that he could do an awful lot of the refining of the project on a workstation or workstation arranger before it got to a studio .

But if he wanted to he could deliver the finished piece to an acceptable standard to his clients on either an arranger or workstation . Isn't that just another real world illustration of the interchangeable use of an arranger as a workstation ?

Hi Spalding

You can certainly connect your PA1x to a computer; however all you would be doing is using your PA1x as a limited capability controller. (This is what I do with a dedicated controller as I don’t have hardware Workstation)

A hardware Workstation is a controller and DAW in 1 package with no need to connect to anything extra. (Plugging in a bigger screen into the Workstation though will make things easier to view)

I never said an arranger could not be used for basic arranging, just that it was completely out of its depth when it comes to production. (Production & Arranging are not the same)

Bill

Hi Don, so happy to see you progressing so nicely on the health front. As my SECOND favorite 'Southern Gentleman' (sorry, I think RUSS mentioned me in his will - now, all I have to do is outlive him ), AND Synthzone's leading wit, your contributions are vital to the intellectual health of this forum; else we could be stuck with 'a steaming pile of' "who's gigging New Years Eve?" (the more intriguing question would be "who's giging on Tuesday night in the middle of February in Podunk, Ar?" - that's where you'll find the REAL pro ).

Spalding, since the rest of our conversation is merely opinion anyway (expressed ad nauseum), let's talk about Cory Henry. After seeing some of his amazing synth performances, I was just amazed to see his virtuosity on Hammond Organ (heel and toe pedal player too) and drums. He also sings. And if that isn't enough, he seems to cap every super performance with the most infectious smile/grin/laugh as if to say "wow, we nailed it". This guy just MAKES you love him.

Workstation or Arranger? I'll take one of each, thank you. They help remind me how good my organ sounds .

chas

Ha ha ! Chas the arranger and work station are a heck of lot easier to put in your car than an organ ☺️ Have you seen the clip of snarky puppy and laylah Hathaway . It will blow your mind .

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0SJIgTLe0hc

Hi Chas

Players like that is what put me and many others off Jazz when we were younger, however as we have got older and understand it more we now get it.

I took a couple of friends to our local jazz night and it went down quite well with them, but they were completely confused when we were clapping before the piece had finished, as to them it seemed a bit of an alien way of doing things compared to other types of music. (I explained it as just applauding a solo which I think worked)

Bill

Bill, I applaud you for at least keeping an open mind and not just rejecting something out of hand just because it may not have made it through your cultural filters as a young person. I further applaud you for introducing your friends to a new experience. That's what life is all about. Okay, I'm off to the Grand ol' Opry....well, soon.

Spalding, to paraphrase the song 'He ain't heavy, he's my brother', all I can say is, 'It ain't heavy, it's my organ'. On the Cory/SP thing, yes, I've listened to everything I could find by them on the 'net and each new thing just gets better and better (I think my favorite might be Lingus). I'm still trying to find something with him playing arranger keyboard .

chas

You are wicked chas :-) . Well we have seen what marco parisi can do with an arranger and it would be just scary to imagine what cory could do with one if he had any length of time with it :-)

I am going to start another thread just for you cha as I have found another exciting musician I know you are going to love .

I hear you Bill . You are completely right in that an arrangement is not necessarily a fully produced piece if work .

But I am extremely confidant that the majority of workstation users , my guess is over 90 percent (based on the keyboard musicians from the numerous fellowships I have worked with over the last 10 years ) never use their workstation for production , they use it for arrangement . They have hundreds or even thousands of incomplete sequences , 8 bar grooves ,musical doodles / sketch pad ideas much like you said you have and I also have..... But the finished article 90 percent of the time is not done on any keyboard . In fact you could describe most of the work done on workstations as arrangements and not fully produced pieces despite the capability to do so .

You can of course go deeper into the production process with a workstation but for most real life examples (not just discussions about technical features or capacity or expandability ) the korg pa arrangers can do most of the functions that most workstation user actually need and use in one unit as a workstation .