All 'true believers' seem to end up at the same place, no matter what the evidence shows. The problem arises from their not being able to grasp the concept of 'live and let live'. There seems to be this obsessive need to convert everyone else to their way of thinking, by any means necessary - example: estimated 1.3 to 3 million lives lost to the (7) Crusades.

Should Carlin be dismissed JUST because he's a comedian? We laugh because he is able to point out the absurdity of fundamental(ist) Christian beliefs in a humorous way. That doesn't automatically make him wrong.

Feeding the hungry is admirable but when you say (emphatically) that "I'm NOT a humanitarian, I'm an Evangelist", I'd say that goes to MOTIVE. Blacks in America are STILL suffering the crippling effects of religion, imposed on them during the era of slavery. They suffered unimaginable pain and hardship with the promise of a bright and happy future in the next life, while the Masters enjoyed the bounties of THIS life PLUS the promise of paradise in the next. Same religion, different folks.

I realize that you're probably never going to have a rational discussion with a 'true believer' who responds to everything with "but the Bible says......" or "but God says......", or that FAITH trumps logic, reason, scientific fact...in fact, everything. In the end, George Carlin says it all (and so well).

chas

Chas,

Here you go again, mixing religion with real Christianity. Please allow me to re-iterate again:

No mates, religion is not involved. Let me tell you how it is:

Any human consists of a soul, a spirit & a body. All of us are three beings in one.

When one surrenders his/her life unconditionally to Jesus, the Bible says that He replaces their Spirit with His. He removes their hearts of stone & gives them hearts of flesh that can obey Him.

It is a supernatural thing. The very next day one develops this extreme, supernatural hunger for the Bible and one cannot put it down. It gets carried wherever one goes in ones back pocket.

Then the first name calling starts, EXACTLY as spelled out in the Bible. The first thing one is labelled is being a "Bible Puncher"

This did not come by choice. It came as a direct result of a touch from Him. And then the changes start, by itself, from the inside out. It is He changing one, not one deciding to change ones lifestyle.

I have much, much more to say on this, but it will only result in this thread being locked.

We carry LIFE within us, not religion!!! His life flows in us, through us & out of us. We are new creatures, EXACTLY like stated in His Word. He wrote His laws on our hearts - we can NEVER be he same again!

And all it took was a sincere prayer in which we surrendered completely and unconditionally to Him.

Me & Monica neither belong to nor visit any church. We have no one teaching us or motivating us but His Holy Spirit. Yet see what we do & where we go. "It is Him working in us both to will & to do of His good pleasure", EXACTLY like stated in His Word.

Real Christianity is a experience & a VERY real one too. It is not a set of rules. It's having His life inside of one.

There are many "corpses" walking around professing to be believers, yet they've never had a touch from Jesus in all of their lives. Being brought up in a Christian home does not make one a believer, neither does going to a church. It is a personal handover to Jesus and the change ONLY happens after the handover, regardless of ones age or status. It happens at a specific moment and everyone who've been there can point back to that EXACT moment that he/she was "born AGAIN".

And here's another good test for those proclaiming to be believers: If one fears death, i.o.w. being killed, one does not know Him, neither has one had a touch from Him. For those who did long to be with Him more than anything else. They'll constantly put their lives at risk to make sure as many come to hear about His salvation as possible.

Aaaahhh, but let me stop here. I think this should suffice. All I want to point out over here is the difference between religion & real Christianity. Most who call themselves Christians aren't, even the Bible states so. The Bible says more or less (yes, I can quote it accurately if I wish) that even the demons believe in God, yet they shudder & tremble when they think on their ends. Only believing that there is a God does not make one a Christian. This is "religion" in action.

The Bible says that the letter kills, but the Spirit gives LIFE! It is as simple as that!!!

Cheers mates,

Henni

Henni, logic comes with wisdom.Mostly there is none in religion
It' s just a joke by a very funny guy.At least religious people should have some.

Another thing Chas,

We are ALWAYS reprimanded for quoting the Bible. Now just think on this:

I see most things mentioned in the Bible in my everyday life. Let me use just one example:

I can list more than a thousand instances in the Bible where He spoke audibly to man. That has happened maybe fifteen times or more in my own personal live with major consequences. So how can I not quote from His Word? It is true to the very letter in my every day life.

I know from experience that the Bible holds no authority to an atheist. So then I move over to near death experiences where many, many have seen and experienced for themselves EXACTLY what is written in the Bible.

What do the atheists do: They shrug it off as hallucinations caused by the lack of oxygen to the brain. Next I list documented cases of those who were born blind who saw everything the doctors did to them whilst brain dead. Some even came back & stated accurately what is lying on the roof of the hospital.

The atheists make this off as a joke. They do not believe in ANYTHING, they do not report to ANYONE or any philosophy. They can say just what they want, when they want & they constantly change their story everytime they are in a corner.

I on the other hand have to stick with what is recorded in the Bible. I cannot give ANY opinion whatsoever as that is what it is - just an opinion.

Yet the very Word of God will put an atheist in a corner on EVERY single argument they have, but they still refuse to listen to it.

Been there, seen that, done that many a time. However, we can go there again any time you wish. I am armed with His Word, His Spirit & I'm ready for your arguments.

Let's go!

Henni

I wish religion would encourage people to think more.To ask questions, to be less afraid, to speak their own mind.Not just quoting Bible.To actually encourage people to seek and learn about other religions like Islam, Budhism, Judisam, even Atheism.To learn more..
I think one of the biggest differences between religious and non religious is this.Non religious is not afraid to be proven wrong..

Where atheists differ from believers is that the atheists do not believe in any gods.

However, atheists do believe things and they do believe in things.

It could be acknowledged, for worshippers (or theists, if you will) their god might be so important and vital that not believing in it may seem just like not believing in anything at all...but really, they aren't exactly the same.

Even if a believer cannot grasp the idea of having values, meaning, or purpose in the absence of their god(s), atheists are able to manage it no problem.

Usually, the only thing atheists have in common is their lack of belief in gods.

It's simple...if you want to know what an atheist believes or believes in, you have to ask...and ask about particulars.

It doesn't work to simply ask "what do you believe in"? That question is much too general.

A person could, quite likely, go on for days listing all of the things they believe, and why would they bother to do that for you?

If you want info, you need to be specific. If you want to know what an atheist believes about morality, why not ask that?

If you want to know what an atheist believes about the beginnings of the universe, ask that.

We are not mind readers, and you shouldn't expect us to be.

Ian

What's the point. It's like talking to a brick wall. At least you continue to confirm everything I said in my previous post. So let's talk about something else.....flying. As I'm sure you already know, I'm an ATP with @ 14,000 hrs. in every thing from piper cubs to heavy turbines, civilian and military. One of my flying buddies (we've stayed in contact every since Vietnam) is being inducted into the Aviation Hall of Fame and I will be one of the presenters. He earned a Bronze Star, Silver Star, and Distinguished Flying Cross. The one thing both of us agree on is that we would never, ever, ever fly an Experimental (kit built, factory built but not certificated) airplane. They account for a hugely disproportionate number of GA accidents. I admire the spirit and courage (but not the wisdom) of those flying these machines but would implore all of you to NEVER, NEVER take along a passenger (especially your wife). I say this only out of concern for your well-being and that of your spouse. Those who tell you to "have fun with your new toy" have no clue of the risks involved.

Be well (and turn those speakers down),

chas

In my case I was brought up in a religious environment, went to church, discovered god was a broke as we were and while my dad only made $25 a week as a milk truck driver back in 1940, 10 percent of our meager income went into the tray every week. I guess God needed the money more than we did.

I pretty much remained religious until about age 25, a time when I entered the field of cardio-pulmonary medicine. I worked in one of the largest, inner-city hospitals in Baltimore. I got to see, first hand, the worst of the worst. I saw 12 and 13-year old kids with needle tracks and herniated blood vessels all over their tiny, destroyed bodies when they arrived in the Emergency Room dead from heroin overdoses. I saw crack babies convulsing and gasping their last breaths. I administered pain killing drugs to children who were nearly burned alive because their druggie mothers left them unattended in a rat infested, roach infested vacant house heated with a bucket of burning trash, while the mother went off to prostitute herself for more drugs.

I spent endless hours working in the operating room, running the heart/lung machine (pump/oxygenator) to keep someone alive while we desperately tried in vein to repair various heart defects, often in children under 5 years of age. Many, many of them died on the operating table, children that had never experienced the joys of being able to play with other children, or even go outside their home because their conditions were so frail.

I did this for 15 years, and during my final year in medicine, I worked with children with cystic fibrosis. We called them pink puffers. These thin, frail, wonderfully brave children gasped for every breath. They had never experienced life outside their tiny environment of living in near seclusion because of fear of secondary pulmonary infections that would kill them in a heartbeat. Minor infections, sore throat, bronchitis, and other normal childhood diseases were a death sentence to these beautiful, brave babies. I held them in my arms while they slowly suffocated to death. Then, after their passing, I often accompanied the chief resident to the waiting room to tell their parents that their child had died.

We had a resident Chaplin, one that was always on call at the hospital when someone was dying, or had died. Most of the time, he went with us to the parents, husbands, wives, etc..., when we informed the family members of a persons death. He would always tell them that the child, or family member was in a better place and that their horrendous death was "Gods Way." Then he would go into some ridiculous tirade for the next 20 minutes about how good and gracious god had been in taking that child into his arms.

Well, if God was so good and gracious, why did God allow that tiny baby to convulse and die from the crack cocaine the mother continued to ingest on a daily basis during pregnancy? Why didn't God prevent all those beautiful, brave babies I held in my arms from contracting cystic fibrosis in the first place? Why did HE allow those children to be born with congenital heart defects that destroyed their tiny bodies? If HE was so great and merciful, creator of all in this universe, why is he allowing, in the name of religion, jihad to rain down thousands of missiles on the Israeli children?

Throughout my entire life, I've done my best to help others. Not as a bible thumping evangelist, but as one human being to another, and I continue to do so today. I've used my talents to the best of my ability to help those in need to help themselves. In that realm, when I joined the U.S. Navy at age 17, I did so with the full knowledge that if my country were to be attacked by another nation, I would be there to serve and protect. During my time aboard ship, I was heavily exposed to asbestos. My lungs are slowly, but surely, becoming fibrotic. I now face the fate that many of those beautiful, tiny, helpless, brave children - I will slowly suffocate to death over the next decade or less. My blood oxygen levels have fallen dramatically over the past two years, my lung capacity has diminished by 50 percent, and within the next year or so, I will no longer be able to provide musical entertainment. Was this GOD'S WILL? Does GOD really want me to stop making people happy by providing them with musical entertainment? Does GOD want me to slowly suffocate to death, drown in my own body fluids that will accumulate in my lungs and gasp for every last breath? Is this one of those "Mysterious Ways" the only GOD knows of?

Am I being cynical? You bet your ass I am. There's really no good way to die, and believe me, I've seen them all first hand. If their was an easy way, and GOD really did exist, don't you think we would be using it instead of undergoing the horrors of death? I don't condemn anyone for having his or her particular religious beliefs. My daughter is very religious, and she knows that I'm an Agnostic - we NEVER discuss the subject. I don't try to convince her - she knows better than to try and convince me.

Henni and his loving wife probably do lots of good things for people where they live. That's fine and for this I applaud them. What I DO NOT AGREE WITH is individuals that persist in insisting the rest of the world is wrong and they are right, especially when it comes to religion. Keep in mind there's a group of religious zealots out there right now that sincerely believe that if we do not believe in their religious beliefs that we must be eradicated from the face of the Earth. Yep, they believe in GOD too, just a different one.

Enough ranting for now, back to the fun of making music while I still can,

Gary

Might as well add my two bits worth.

After studying religion, many religions, I came to the conclusion that every religion is basically a Fraternal organization with the express purpose of controlling all other men.

After studying religion, many religions, I came to the conclusion that every religion is basically a Fraternal organization with the express purpose of controlling all other men.

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Billy that is why religion was made.Not to give hope,but to control people.