Thats all well and good and you make a few good points ..
but the numbers don't lie! ....look around you on almost every stage,....TV....concert venue, etc,
what do you see?...NORD, ROLAND Fanthom, KORG Kronos,
Yamaha Motif, Kurzweil, ....
sorry with that alone I rest my case.

If you look at the power within just one style file...

You have, for example on my Tyros4, eleven sections to work with (counting intros and endings) so variations can be as mild or as wild as the style creator (or editor) wishes. Most sections have up to 32 bars available.

Plus, you aren't limited to using one style within a song...you can use several, each with its 11 variations.

I agree that future workstations will be mainly software based except for a few die-hards. Arrangers, however, will transition to software based units much slower, although we can now see the beginnings with the many apps for I-Pads and the like.

Maybe I'm an old thinker, but I really like how arrangers are presented as they are today...with nice keybeds, expressive wheels and joy-sticks, super readable screens and a friendly user interface. I hope they don't change too much from the present format.

I play at least two hours a day just for my own entertainment, as well as using the instrument to supplement my income...so I'm pretty happy with the status quo.

Ian

I'm not knocking arranger playing BUT, I do think there is a difference between playing an instrument and triggering an electronic event. Both require a certain skill set, including some skills that may be overlapping. In order to sound good, both require musical aptitude, finger/hand dexterity, good reflexes, great timing/rhythm, intense training and practice (although probably more for playing for the instrument), and most importantly, GOOD TASTE (recognizing what does and does not sound good).

We've all seen how an Arranger KB in the hands of say, a Marco Parisi, can provide a very exciting and satisfying musical experience, but I think he'd be the first to say that playing an Arranger in style mode (the reason you bought one in the first place) is not the same as playing a non auto-accompaniment keyboard. So despite the defensive stand (to be expected on a dedicated Arranger KB forum), there are certain truths that can't be denied, and one is that the STIGMA associated with Arranger KB's will probably stick with them (like the aforementioned Edsel) until the bitter end. Sadly, that stigma probably also carries over to the ARRANGER PLAYER as well, at least among his musical colleages.

Personally, being a tech freak and all, I'd like to see how far manufacturers can push the envelope, but I also realize that the more advanced they get technology-wise, the further they'll widen the gap between 'player' and 'computer operator'. In any case, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out. Anyhoo, what us old codgers SHOULD be concentrating on is, living long enough to see what happens .

chas

Here's my 2 cents worth. You get a certain amount of enjoyment sitting at a piano or organ playing left handed bass or foot petal bass and left handed chords, right handed melodies. BUT give me an arranger to play and playing music changes ten fold. Or sit a piano player down at an arranger, show him a few things that can be done with one. I was watching a show that had a "band" playing, girl singing. Lead guitarist strummed the thing 5 times then I saw him punching a keypad to make the music for her to sing to. Thats not music talent , he's a keypunch operator. Show me someone who can hear a tune and then go to a piano or organ and play it not perfect but play it, thats a musician for sure. KEYBOARDS FOR EVER

I agree about the stigma Chas, however, it has never stopped me from using an arranger, and using one quite successfully, I might add.

I have also spent many years on other keyboard instruments, from organ, Rhodes, Wurlies, and synths, and all of that experience using those instruments has contributed to the way I play an arranger, not to mention the work I have done in bands.

Musically, I've always zigged a little when others zagged so going against the grain is hardly an obstacle and more like a challenge.

So, I'm pretty comfortable with my choice of keyboard.

And let's face it, some people, including some pretty advanced organ and piano players, just can't work themselves into playing an arranger keyboard...it does require a certain combination of skills to pull it off so that it sounds great, and not just mediocre or amateurish.

Ian

On rare occasions like this I have to agree with you Chas well said you certainly Nailed It, you make very valid points. Especially when you mentioned "Trigerring Electronic Events" is it me or not many seem to understand that's what they are doing with an arranger KB?

Why is everyone overhere only using the arranger the easy way?

Today i can

- play piano style and still have auto accomp...
- need my feet to controll my sa2 voice ( atleast 2 footswitches, preferably 3, and a vollune pedal )
- use the ensemble feature withouth harmony and play 4 different instruments at the same time
- program my own styles, and connect a unit with 8 pods ( and sound just like those trance deejays do)
- sing along my playing..
- program my own sounds

Anyway, in my vision as a former organ player that transfered to a piano style, there is no room anymore for basspedals, but there is allways the need for 61 more keys.. And lots of realtime controllers...

I would love to see the next arranger have a few freely assignable pods...

It all comes down to choices....an arranger keyboard plays the way you choose to play it..

My G70 can be played as a piano (better than most), with a decent feel and sound...and it can be played as a full piano mode arranger , if you choose..

It can be played as a decent organ (real drawbars)..again , better than most..

There is an example of two dedicated instruments that Pros and Purist prefer to play.....and wouldn't you know an arranger can fulfil the job.

And it is a perfect drum machine..(yes pros and purist use drum machines)..

We have choices..electronics is not the hinderance..we are..

I would say ..those that complain..may not be the capable players they think they are...turn off the auto stuff..and find out what you are made of..

I use top arrangers because they are capable to meet my needs...it could be left hand bass and a rhodes..along with a drum machine....also the mic and effects at my finger tips..
Try setting up the "real" instruments and workstations to duplicate this...and you can understand why arranger keyboards are not dying off..only savy players are dying off..

"- arranger keyboards allow you to very quickly make a song using the automatic patterns, and record the notes to your DAW via MIDI, all parts (drums, bass, accompaniment, melody etc.) at the same time, and - depending on the level of the arranger keyboard - you get sounds that are about the same of synths (the top ones, like Yamaha Tyros or Ketron Audya, arguably sound better than some synths). The downside is that usually their synth section editing parameters are not as many as you'd find on a synth, not even close.

- synths allow you to sculpt the sound exactly to your specification, and create new, even exotic ones via a myriad of parameters. They also are usually expandable with cards / boards / samples. But you have to record each part separately on each DAW's track, so you can get better sounding songs thanks to sounds that are more customizable, but the downside is that it takes much longer to compose the song.

In short, if you are in a situation where you have to compose and create finished songs very quickly, an arranger is probably your best choice; if you can afford time in your studio with your DAW, I'd go with a proper synth.

EDIT: it also depends on your playing ability level: if you aren't yet at the level where you can proficiently play / program different instrument patches (drums, bass, synths, strings, piano etc.) in a variety of styles, then an arranger is going to be very helpful to you, because it will do the job for you, and you can learn from it. It's a quick way to create professional-sounding songs very quickly - simply press the Intro, Verse 1, Verse 2, Chorus, Ending etc. buttons at the appropriate moments in the song. The downside is that there might be other people out there who are using the same accompaniment patterns that you're using, so you run the risk of having a song with the same sounds and arrangement that someone else is already using..."

I agree with what you say chas, but perhaps the 'stigma' on the player can be erased somewhat by his/her TALENT coming through ...



But it is my PLAYING that is triggering those electronic events!!! ... if I turn on my Pa900, as 'SMART' as it is, it is as dumb as a rock ... it does NOTHING on its own ... even if I select a style and hit play, nothing changes unless I change it !!!... and how good it sounds is up to me and my imagination - as others have said or implied here - and how I use those "ELECTRONIC EVENTS" ...
Now, am I going to satisfy every type of audience out there with my KB - NO!, but I'm not trying to either ...
And no room thumping DJ is going to satisfy every audience either ... that's why we have options ... and personally, I think as long as options exist, there will be AKB players playing AKBs, and a market for it ... and before to long, WE may be that market !!! ...