Been testing these keyboards over the last few weeks...

And i came to the following conclusions.... (Excluding vocal harmony as thta is of no interest to me)

Soundwise, the PA600, PA900 and PA3x are very close, they use the same engine and mostly the same samples for most of its sounds... The topmodels only have a few more sounds, same goes for the effects they are mostly the same, only the PA3x has a few more.. But nothing spectacular...
And when you look at the arranger features, they are pretty much the same for all 3 Korg models..


With Yamaha on the other hand, only PSR S750 and S950 are very close, but all the main features of the T5 .... SA2 voices, Organ world, upgraded effects section, ensemble voices... Are not available on the lower models, and the only difference between the S950 and the S750 is audio styles...


In the end i came to the conclusion the PSR S750 and PA600 are soundwise very much comparable with eachother, sometimes yamaha wins, and sometimes Korg wins, but when you compare the T5 sound with the PA3x ( i owned both) the T5 is far ahead.. However the strength of the Pa3x is in its edditing and tweaking..

With any of these keyboards you have a great sound, and the difference is in the details... But i cam to the conclusion that Korg is at least the equall to Yamaha soundwise in the lower models ( both have their strengths, i think the difference here might just be personal prfference, but when playing either of them, you will not notice much quallity difference, both sound inbetween good and great) but Korg is a clear winner in that cattegory when it comes to features...

So, this leaves me wondering if Korg can catch up to Yamha's topmodel with an upcomming Pa4x, which is due early 2015.

I think you are right on the money Bachus in your review . Sound wise I think the yamaha tyros 5 is simply the best sounding keyboard on the market bar non including workstations . But they have deliberately limited the flexibility and features on the Tyros range so that it does not eat too much into their workstation market.

However Korg have for a long time now wrestled with the quality of the internal sounds. However well those sounds can be tweaked and edited you still have to work from the basic samples which in my view have not changed in the korg range for the last 10 years . Yamaha sounds so good because of the detail and the number of samples that are used in their S A technology which is huge. So Yamaha have the ability to build on this vast library of individual detailed samples to extend the S A range further and further.

In my view until Korg invest in an upgraded sample sound set and the level of detail comparable with Yamaha, they will always be behind in terms of sound quality. The korg sounds really impressive but the Yamaha sound is outstanding

Dont forget that there is a difference between SA and SA2 voices, SA voices are very much comparable to Korg DNC sounds.... Sa2 voices are Much more a cross between sampling and VL synthesis, much comparable to Rolands super natural sounds, Korg does have nothing in that direction, not even in its current Kronos line..

Its not just the better samples in the T5 that make the difference, its the whole technollogy.. I agree with you that T5 is the best sounding hardware keyboard in the world when it comes to emulting the sound of other acoustic instruments (except for the piano sound)

But since most of that technollogy is not yet projected down to the PSR range, Korg can still keep up there...

I was recently at the week-long organ & keyboard festival in the UK and was thus able to try the new models and talk to the demonstrators, as well as other users, and you may (Or not) be surprised at some of the conversations.

As I mentioned in another thread, (Off the record) all the manufactures said that arranger sales were on the slide, the typical buyer was 70+ with most using only 2% of the capabilities of their instruments, which is disappointing to say the least, (But not unexpected)

The UK & US have similar markets, however Europe is a totally different animal in that it is not just the more mature that play organs and keyboards but younger ones as well. (They both regularly appear on radio and TV)

Back to the Yamaha & Korg mentioned, the Yamaha development of arranger keyboards where you just need to press a button and everything is done for you is ideal for the mature market, as they just want to play all their old standards (Mention modern music and they run a mile) and enjoy themselves, (I’m the opposite as I hate having everything incorporated forcing me to first get rid of all the fluff so that I can customise it to what I want, not what the manufacture dictates I should have) however younger players don’t want all the older sounds and styles, they just want to be able to twiddle some knobs and put some loops together that they like (Usually nothing like any traditional sound or style) and store them in a patch. (Mixing the patches live later), this is where Yamahas brilliant OOTB philosophy falls down miserably, whereas the Korg (While still not as flexible as a workstation or loop station) allows the young ones to do more of their own thing.

For me personally (As I am regularly out listening to all types of live music) I find the T5 to be like TVs in a showroom, in that they look/sound impressive but are totally overblown when compared to the real thing, whereas the Korg tends to hit the nail on the head more often, hence out of all the arranger keyboards on the market I rate the PA3x way ahead of other manufactures models. (Don’t get me wrong there are some great sounds and features on other manufactures models, but they are just too inflexible or artificial sounding for me)

The biggest theme at this year’s festival was the return to organ style play with the addition of keyboards and pedalboards being added to arrangers (Korg had 3 versions, Yamaha had 2) with the PSR950 & Korg PA900 versions matching price wise the Orla/Ringway organs which as usual also went down extremely well. (Since Orla/Ringway introduced their entry level organs costing less the TOTL keyboards they are selling faster than they can make them, and has really put the cat among the pigeons of arranger manufactures) All the arranger manufactures there were all emphasising learning to play the instrument again rather than relying on sophisticated style play and backing tracks.

One surprising (At least to me) thing there was that talking to a lot of Yamaha owners that had upgraded to a T5, many had downgraded back to the T4 as they just couldn’t get on with all the fancy new features. (For example the ensemble functions was explained clearly using the projector screens, however I could see many a vacant face where it just went completely over their heads) it seems Yamaha may have hit a barrier with the current features offered.

As to the future then all agreed, that the arranger that we know today will morph into something new in the future. (But don’t panic as there is a good few years left yet)

Bill

I know where you're coming from Bill....

And you are right, over here on european soil, moving from Holland to Germany to southern europe, the Balkan and all the way into the Arabic world and even into india, Arrangers are the deal..

For people that just want to replay the music they know so well, arrangers are obviously the way to to go.

I am not surprised to hear that the oldies can't handle the newer stuff like Ensembles, which allow you to actually play a whole orchestra with 4 fingers of your right hand... or just two instruments at the same time... playing ensembles as they are meant to be played surely requires skill and fast fingers..
However, the organ world part of the T5 they must all love, and thats why i do not understand why they would move back to the T4, layout of the 2 is pretty similar, so that can't be the problem.. They might just be getting old...

Back to the Yamaha trail, they build arrangers for former organs players, but they also build more expensive pianos with build arrangers and they sell very well to midrange families, its called the CVP series, and they look nice and are a showoff in the furniture department..
Synths are meant for people that create their own music, and i think Yamaha realizes that these people are moving to software solutions... and they currently have no clue how to pull them back to hardware synth workstations..

The big problem with Total arrangers is that they are way to expensive for the younger people, so they will never adapt.. if parents spend that kind of money, they will go for the piano solution... and young people with jobs are working to hard to even notice arranger keyboards, or are serious about their music and in general make different musical choices.. But thats another discussion



Did the dealers also tell you why they prefer to sell Yamaha instruments above all other brands? I think i know why, you can make more money from selling a Yamaha instrument then you can make from selling any other brand... combined with the great backup support they get from Yamaha over here in europe, that makes them want to sell Yamaha first and above all..

Where was KETRON in this mix at the Organ/Keyboard festival?...

Has anyone ever noticed that when we see a comparison it's always brand XXX V/S Yamaha?z,Might the reasoning behind this be that Yamaha IS the top dog?

Gary

overhere in Holland every music store has Yamaha with some other brands...
and since everyone has Yamaha, its easiest to compare too..

There are very few shops that don't want to sell Yamaha first and still are objective. some comments i had, Korg is only good for Arabic players, Ketron breaks when you look at it, Roland still sells the same stuff as they did 15 years ago...

But when you ask the same salesman to name the weak points of the Tyros 5, he dares to tell you there are none... and while i agree that T5 is the top dog (other Yamaha products are arguable) its still far from perfect.

That may be true but where the heck is the NEW S Model and why so long in between models?.......

Why would they make a new S model, if all those salesmen still push the old ones at a very nice profit?