I didn't want to hijack DNJ's post highlighting the Roland Bk9 (Blues Shuffle), so I thought I'd post an example of the REAL DEAL. I suppose an arranger can do a fair job imitating the 'Hammond' sound IN ISOLATION, same with guitar. But 'in the trenches' as Donny would say, it just doesn't have the power and dynamics of a real Hammond or even a TOTL clonewheel. The problem with the guitar emulation is mainly the player, as few can capture the playing technique of a first rate guitarist. I'm posting the following video as an example of what I'm talking about, especially as it pertains to "the Blues", one of my favorite art forms and especially when done by a REAL bluesman. I know there are some that won't get this but for those of you that like authentic down-in-the-dirt gutbucket blues performed by two masters (Lucky Peterson and Rico McFarland), this should be a real treat. Use headsets or good monitors to get the full effect of the organ.

chas

Video doesn't work......you have to go to the source clik the you tube logo,...that said,......the one thing the arranger KB like the BK9 has over what you see in this video is portability and surly good enough to cover most jobs easily ....I doubt anyone is gonna carry a B3 into a nursing home or 99% of the gigs OMB players play at........otherwise it was enjoyable watching this.

Thanks, I'll try to correct the video. However, you missed the point of my post. Who said anything about OMB's or Nursing homes. I'm talking about how arrangers match up to the real thing and why 'pro's' use the real thing.

Here is a link that should work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3v0LECHDKk

chas

Donny is right on this one. I can't imagine trucking around a B3 and a Leslie and a PAS to play for one hour at a NH or retirement gig. I will, in the near future, be taking out my Hammond SK1-73 and a BK7m and a compact PAS for those jobs. I foresee the Hammond SK holding its own in that arena. As stated before, the only downside too such a setup are the extra cords and equipment not needed with a good MOTL arranger. Roland drawbars are very good and I must say my Yamaha s950 DBs do a decent job.

All that said, if you go back to the video and maybe look at some similar videos, I would be willing to bet that those same artists could easily hold their own with today's Hammonds, Nords, Rolands and a few other dedicated drawbar clones.

No Cass, Donny is NOT right, because his reply has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. But forget about it 'cause obviously you're only going to respond to the interpretation you want to give it. I wasn't judging an instrument based on how it works for you in a OMB or Nursing Home setting. I was talking about how one sounds vs the other. Look, I'm not trying to be snarky here. For a solo performer, unless one is a very skilled and talented pianist, I'd be the first to say that an arranger keyboard is probably best suited for the job. But I also believe that we can get so used to the sound of something that we start to think that that is the norm. It's not. Sometimes we need to listen to the real thing and the dynamics of live play to remind us that there is another level to aspire to. Nobody is suggesting that you haul a B3/Leslie into a nursing home for a 1hr gig; that's ludicrous (although there was a time when people did it). I'm just saying don't get complacent in the fact that an arranger keyboard is the be-all, end-all of musical instruments. In my view, it's a good substitute where the 'real thing' or multiple players is impractical BUT a poor substitute when that's not the case. JMO.

chas

You don't "play" a Hammond B-3...you "ride" it. Clones, even by Hammond, just don't have the mass of a real B-3...it feels almost indestructible and doing smears and two handed climbs and squabbles just feel better on the genuine article, so the player tends to dig in more aggressively and freely than when playing the lighter clones.

I can do rhythmic chops on a B-3 with much more freedom than on a clone, as I know I'm not going to break anything.

Also, the inconsistency of a well broken in B-3 is very hard to simulate accurately, although digital organs are getting closer, and where the latter usually fall down is in the exactness of the chorus/vibrato.

Also, the deal breaker for me on clones is the rotary speaker, as nothing sounds like a Leslie honkin', and snortin' and breathin'...yes the Ventilator comes very, very close, but still doesn't nail it as far as I'm concerned. We used one on the B-3 I jam on, and the Leslie 147 still trumps it. I also tried the Ventilator on my Tyros4's drawbar organs, and it really lifts them into another area of realism, but playing the Tyros4 into a Leslie preamp and into the 147 sounds even better.

A 425 lb Hammond B-3 requires either roadies or at least three other very understanding and strong bandmates, and although the strap on dollies/handles are very nice to have (and pretty much a necessity), any venue without a ramp or elevator will soon become the one you hate to play at.

It really is the King of Instruments in my opinion. As I said in another thread, if I could play organ as well as you, Chas, I'd have to have a real B-3 and nothing else, but since organ sounds to do not feature as much in my arranger music, I can get by just fine with what's in my Tyros4.

I love this performance by Billy Preston who really does some creative licks on his Hammond. These are the slides and squabbles I mentioned earlier.

Ian

You are absolutely right of course chas ! But you could say the same about any instrument that any arranger or keyboard is trying to emulate . A top professional could get sounds out of a simple triangle that a keyboard cannot ! Let alone an almost living breathing beast such as a Hammond organ .

An arranger can at best mimick most of the character of an instrument for a skilled musician to attempt to play well and in almost every category of sound it does it well . But perfectly ??? No not a chance .

Can an arranger fully replace any original instrument ? No not a chance ! But can it cover most of the bases to enable a skilled musician to fool most listeners that they are hearing the real thing ? Certainly it can !

I don't have the time to master the emulation of every instrument I love . But I can play guitar reasonably well and the keyboard/piano and the drums so I ha e an appreciation of what I should hear when playing or singing with a live band . The arranger does an "adequate" job for me when I don't have real players around me . It's not a substitute but it is sufficient for what I need it to do .

What I do is arrange . That's what an arranger does best .

I don't know if I've posted this clip of Cory Henry on the zone before but this is just for you Chas and anyone else that loves great gospel organ !

I remember a book that was sold during the Hammond B-3's peak years that gave drawbar settings that were to make the organ sound like strings, clarinets, brass, even bagpipe...I still remember they emphasized drawbar "shapes" that the ends of the bars made when pulled out like e.g. an inverted or concave "bow" shape.

Then, of course, there were the numbered registrations like "88 8000 000, Percussion On, Soft, Short, Third Harmonic" which was your basic Jimmy Smith tone.

Or a "reeds" setting could be 00 4632 10 and the shape resembled an inverted sawtooth wave.

I seem to remember the Piano/Vibes/Xylophone setting was "00 0000 000 Percussion On, Normal, Long, 2nd Harmonic" and, because the percussion only triggered when all notes were released, it took a little practice to get it to work right. If you needed more body and sustain, you added the 4th drawbar to taste.

This was often advertised as if to convey the "synthesizing" aspects of the B-3...it could be thought to be analogous to that of a fixed-envelope additive synthesizer.

Did it sound like the instruments? For the time, it was reasonably good, and, of course, like our arranger keyboards, it very much depended on the skill of the player to produce these imitations idiomatically.

Some bore a closer resemblance than others...I remember the bagpipe required the "reed" drawbar setting, "stopping" the Leslie Horns, and holding down a key for the drone and playing notes above it. Switching off the organ would give the pitch drop as the bagpipe's bag slowly deflated, but that detail wasn't encouraged by the manufacturer.

Around that time, the Mellotron was just coming out so it took over the role of making orchestral sounds for keyboardists.

Most Hammond players, including yours truly, just grabbed the bars and pulled them out (often a few or more at a time) until the organ produced the sound they needed, and moving them in and out while playing a lead line sounded pretty cool, sorta "sculpting" the tone.

I like Spalding's post above...it reflects a lot of my thoughts regarding the idea behind, and usage of, the arranger keyboard.

I mainly use my Tyros4 to create little orchestra or band replicas (or "scenes"), depending on the genre of music and what I'm trying to emulate.

I feel that the B-3 went from being an imitative instrument (pipe organ, synth etc.) to becoming an instrument that keyboard manufacturers did their best to imitate eventually producing the gaggle of clonewheels we see in recent years.

As good as some are, I still don't feel any one clonewheel manages to replicate ALL of the Hammond B-3's characteristics, but they do manage to bypass one attribute none of us really ever warmed up to...the B-3's weight and bulk when it came time to move it, especially after a long night of playing.

Ian

PS...Spalding, Cory Henry's playing is impressive, to say the least.