I thought we could start new topic here instead of bothering Tony ' s Hotel California.

What do you guys use, and how??which modes you use??
Also if someone wants to post demo , you are more than welcomed.

So Miza, I saw that you said that you prefer to use the scale mode. Do you have to set that up before each song you play? What if a song changes keys? Just curious.

Mirza I know I'm not alone.. I'd like to hear your VH during a song using scales method also how to set up using scales process.....

I use the TC Helicon Harmony-M, which I set to High and Higher, chordal mode. I use it sparingly, everyone says is sounds pretty darned good.

One thing I learned many years ago from DNJ and UD was that there's an art to using these devices. It takes quite a bit of voice control to obtain the quality you want to use for a live performance. If you do not have that ability, then forget using a vocal harmony processor.

Cheers,

Gary

Hi guys.
I will try to post something as an example. It might not be in English.
I am not saying choral mode is wrong, but if you want more acurate harmonies and more musical harmonies SCALE mode is the way . Although probably with some simple songs it would work almost the same as in choral mode.

And Mr . Gary is right.If you can't control your voice and sing in the right key, harmony processor is probably not for you.It doubles and triples every mistake you do ..
I am not a singer. I sing only because I have to, but I am pretty acurate with singing . Although my voice is nothing to brag about.
But, I did sing harmonies a lot before.
That is why I am always critical about harmonies..

Gary is right. If you don't have proper breath control or if you sing lazy, the harmonizer will destroy you with scoops and warbles that are very unflattering. Until I started working with a harmonizer, I thought I could just sing the songs. Now I do a lot more thinking and make sure I'm ready when I step on that switch. In a way a harmony machine is a bit of a vocal trainer.

God Bless,
Don

Hi Guy's

Just had to chip in with this one, I think I've had more stick than anyone here about using harmonizers. I thought I would record a classic harmony number so it had to be The Everly Bros. Just one voice a third up.

It was a very quick recording and if you listen carefully you can hear odd times when I went slightly off key and the harmony followed as Don said you have to be dead accurate.

https://app.box.com/s/4xapw7opmjc1qwx63ny5zq0q2yajxvb5

Interested to hear your opinions (Don't be shy I've got a thick skin)

Kind Regards

Col

Couldn't find much wrong with that, Colin. Nice job. The one thing that the manufacturers need to work on in their harmony units is to eliminate the phasey distortion on engagement of harmony. They all have this problem to varying degrees and the reason I stick to my beloved Digitech is that it is quite a bit less noticeable than on other units.



Unless severely tweaked Yamaha's VH2 is the worst offender in my opinion. In their flagship and the world's most expensive arrangers, the Tyros series, they should have the best harmonies of any manufacturer.

God Bless,
Don

Here it is.

This is my first ever English speaking song . I never even tried any English song before, so bare with me.

Like I said before I just got me TC-Helicon Voiceworks, for the second time. I had it before when they came out, but sold it after couple of years to get VL2. I sold that to, because I was not using most of the things inside. I have a digital mixer and don't need effects . I just need harmonies.
I am still playing with voiceworks. Basically, how I set it up. I go left channel for lead and right channel only for harmonies to my mixer. Effects are from my x32.Mic is E945.
I am using scale mode set to Bflat. Song is Let it be, by Beatles ..
I am changing between lower and higher harmonies throughout the song..I just did one verse..
OOO,,,..I recorded it directly to my mixer. It's T5 with 90sRockBallad. I changed drums to DMX Vulgar Drums-WET..They come with ambiance recorded..

As Saswick said.. Yell, comment,don't be gentle..

https://app.box.com/s/mnxkmtc73dvh9jzzyb31a82k4tow8v8g

Don, when set up properly, the VH2 sounds very, very good. However, you must set it up as described in the lessons section at PSR Tutorial, where big741 provided the exact details required for doing this. VH Primer Granted, it's not as good as the TC Helicon stand alone devices, but it's pretty darned good. And, if I didn't own a pair of TC Helicon Harmon-ms I would be using it exclusively. Take a look at Dan's setup and follow his instructions to the letter and you will be amazed at the results.

One of the problems with all harmonizers is the mic used. The mic MUST be very short ranged and extremely high quality. Anything less and you will not get stellar results. Mics that can pick up outside sounds will loop those harmonies and sound awful. A good example is the difference between the SM58 and the Sennheiser E855 - the difference in quality is incredible.

All the best,

Gary

Trust me Gary, I want to be able to appreciate VH2 but my initial experience with it while testing it in the store tempers my thoughts. Most users, yourself not included, have that same tinny robotic sound that I rejected when I bought the 750 instead of the 950. You and a few others seem to have a handle on it but if you listen to some of the PSR Tutorial posts where VH2 is used you will hear the sound I refer to. I don't notice it in your work but on some it totally destroys the vocal. It seems to garble the lead voice along with the harmony. This fellow, Paul Brooks from across the ocean has got it sounding the best I've ever heard.

https://app.box.com/s/jrxp4c9xrd133pxm0aap

By the way, this is a virtual duet where Steve played his Tyros 5 and sent the file to Paul, who played back the file on his Tyros 5 and added the vocal. I guess the keyboard reads Paul's vocal input and adds the harmonies based on the chords in the midi file. All Paul has to do is engage the switch when he wants to add VH2.
Is that a correct appraisal of the situation?
God Bless,
Don

Hey Gary,

Speaking of mikes. Long before I figured out how to use my Digitech with my keyboard I used it quite a bit with guitar. At church we sing through AKG condenser mikes which give a wonderful tone in the lower register. I used to bring my church mike home for the week in hopes of getting some great recordings. The mike was so sensitive that my Digitech would not only harmonize my voice but also the strings on my acoustic guitar. My condenser mike experiment ended when my digital recorder recorded a toilet flush from 2 floors away in 3 part harmony. So yeah, the right microphone is very important.

God Bless,
Don

Mirza,

Good job on the song. Harmonies come across well but are accompanied by that "phasey" sound that signals TC Helicon harmony has just kicked in.

Originally when I got started on this journey I aspired to own a Voice Live 2 from TC Helicon. Long and McQuade didn't have one yet as they were pretty new. So I rented the Digitech Vocalist 4 for a month and was pretty impressed by its capabilities. When the TC unit came in, the store let me borrow it overnight. I still had a few days left on the Digitech so I had them side by side. I was prepared for Voice Live 2 to blow the doors off the Digitech but it turned out the other way round. I bought the Digitech and saved many hundred dollars and have never looked back. The thing that turned me away from TC was that Whoosh/Phasey sound that comes with TC.

Listen closely as the girl with the green hair in Donny's posted video sings............

"And I wanna sing."
"And I wanna shout."

The phasey sound on the I wanna's is quite pronounced. I heard the same sound on the Korg PA 900 when I checked it out at L&M under headphones. Maybe it's my ears. TC is supposed to be the best. Perhaps Uncle Dave has conquered this on his TC devices.

God Bless,
Don

What you hear is probably me trying to sing in English.

I am constantly switching between harmonies, and turning them On and Off..

Hey you did a decent job with your English!

God Bless,
Don

Sounded good to me Mirza.

I've just tried a different approach a backing track with harmony included(Cheating)

https://app.box.com/s/r9dshcq2lc0mgejv2dbhd2rojlprwjck

Col

Montunoman, when you work in scale mode you have to set the scale to each song.
Depends on what you use, with voiceworks it takes me 3sec to set it up.About how if song changes scales or key. You can do that to with voiceworks pretty easy in song mode you can set it up. I try not to over use harmonies because they start to sound too dull and boring after a while.
The way I do it is, I have 4 or 5 presets. On each preset I have set up the scale for upper 3rd, or lower or upper 5th, or lower octave from my voice. With voiceworks I can choose instantly which voice is going to do harmonies. It's pretty easy with voicelive 2-3 with steps to do the same..I do have to have in my harmonizer ability to do custom scale. That way you can choose which harmony sound when. Lets say you sing in C major and set it to 3rd up which is pretty easy, but also you want to add 5th only when you sing lets say G note. That is why I like custom scales.

The harmonizer on the Roland g-70 is about as good as it gets. It's too bad they don't make a harmonizer module.

http://www.rolandus.com/products/vp-7/

I tried Boss ve20 and it's not bad at all.

That Roland Harmonizer has been discontinued.

Colin, you used to own a Roland G70 what would you say in the light of Tom's assessment? I wasn't even aware there was a Roland keyboard with built in harmonizer.

God Bless,
Don

The G70 and the E80 did have very good harmonizers. I think the one in Korg is a little better. Audya also has an excellent one.

"Discontinued" does not mean unavailable and certainly is still a wonderful unit. Probably could get it at a discount now on eBay also.

I Have the Roland/Boss VE 20 but it's not very user friendly for a singing keyboard player. The pedal you step on to engage harmony if kept depressed switches to advancing through the presets. Then you have to hold it depressed again to return to its harmony ON/OFF function. I could not use it for performance. Maybe for recording.

Blessings,
Don

On the discontinued Roland, here's part of the promo literature..................

Generate vocal harmonies instantly — no vocal skills required

And here is another demo. I thought it was a touch robotic in Donny's original demo but check this out! The fellow goes on about the keyboard so you might want to fast forward to listen to the machine-like harmonies.



Judge for yourself!

Blessings,
Don

Did some more digging on the Roland VP7 and this demo sheds a much kinder light on this unit which was new technology in 2010 and sold for $639 U.S.




It sounds pretty good!

God Bless,
Don

It sounds ok, but that is actually the thing that I don't like about harmonizers.All these harmonies sound lifeless and too sterile. ..

That's what you get when it's ALL the "SAME PERSON VOICES"....
vs Separate Singers,.....it loses all dynamics.
Just like an Arranger KB vs playing with a band. But when alone we do what we have to.

Indeed! Those other guys are a pain some time but they sure were dynamic. One time years ago when I was a much younger man I was doing a guitar/beat box gig when some younger guys who already had their amps and drums setup on the stage behind me asked if they could back me on a couple of numbers. Wow! After playing on my own for so long, playing rhythm guitar and singing with a real band was like "dying and going to heaven". Talk about dynamics!!!! DYN-O MITE!!!!!!!

God Bless,
Don

DNJ you are apsolutely right.That is why I will only use one or maximum 2 voices for harmony.
And Don you are spot on.
I know probably most of you will not agree with me on this, but all these arrangers that we use, from Tyros to Aydia and everything else in between. It' s basically all a big BS when it comes to playing live with real people , with real energy , real instruments on the stage. .I know sometimes we have no choice.

I feel genuinely sorry for the guys on here who've never played/sang in a 'real' group or band. There ain't nothing like the real thing, baby.

A lot of us do what we do now because of various factors. The old band broke up, venues won't pay for four- or five-pieces any more, etc.

Even if you've never enjoyed the 'real thing', I'd urge you to look around for a 'weekend warrior' type gig that are sometimes organised by local music stores. Or put it about on a local website that you're looking for musos of like interest and try to get something going. I don't think you'd regret it.

Mirza, we've all been there and done that, and have the Tee shirts and hats. With the exception of a very few individuals on this forum, we've also had to endure the idiosyncrasies and egos of individual players that sometimes make playing in a full band a real challenge. There are reasons many of us now play as OMB entertainers. Other than the payscales being the same as they were 40 years ago, which was lousy back then, we now have players that require no pay, show up on time, don't whine and cry and still sound very damned good, IMO. Additionally, there's no timing problems, no drunks in the band to contend with, well, most of the time. I remember several years ago when Hank Bowman said "My PSR-2000 still plays OK, but the damned thing has a drinking problem." Someone spilled a couple vodka and tonics in his keyboard, he opened it up, dried it with a hair dryer and it still plays today.

Now, there can be problems with the player. Today, my back in killing me, but I have to work tonight. I'm resting on a heating pad, taking pain killers, and hoping for the best. As an OMB entertainer, if something serious happens to me, the show does NOT go on, at least unless I find someone to fill in for me that I have confidence in. Not a lot of ME's around.

Now, you hear something I cannot hear with today's vocal processors - something you refer to as a robotic sound. I don't hear that anymore, maybe because my hearing is shot to Hell, or maybe it's just because I happen to be the lead singer and hear my own voice over everthing else. Then I hear others complain that arranger keyboards are just repetitive loops. Well, that's what ALL songs are - repetitive loops! Nothing more - nothing less. And I don't give a damned how anyone makes those repetitive loops, keyboard, live band, PC program, etc..., it really doesn't change the fact that all songs ARE repetitive loops of chords and notes being repeatedly played. I mean, that why we have verse 1, verse 2, verse 3, etc... The only thing that breaks this up is the chorus or bridge and some fills.

As for me, I really enjoy playing an arranger keyboard and taking advantage of all the wonderful features they ALL offer. Sure, I enjoyed playing in my 5-piece country band, and the comradery if offered. There are only two of still alive and we both perform nearly every day of the week. My lead guitar player, like me, mostly performs the NH circuit, and he's seriously considering buying a PSR-S950 and getting away from the guitar completely. Why? He said "Well, it sounds as good as my Gibson, it has a built in drum machine and bass player, and I can throw in some fiddle licks if I want."

Say what you want about those VH voices, but for most of us, they're the best thing since sliced bread.

All the best,

Gary

I keep it simple in regards to harmonizers...less is more, so to speak.

I mainly use the VH2 harmonizer in my Tyros4 as a Vocoder, but sometimes we'll use it in the studio, but sparingly. I use some of Dan Rymut's (aka big741.1) settings for the VH2 and they work really well.

In the studio vocal harmonies are generally done as overdubs, but I'd have no problem using my T4's VH2 on a "live" gig; again, less is more and being comfortable and adept with using your mic/harmonizer combination is paramount to success. I never have expected things to work without any "adjustments". I've been very successful with using a vintage Electro-Voice RE-15 for both vocals and Vocoding.

The VH2's biggest improvement over the old is that it doesn't have a glitch if you switch on the harmony while singing a note.

I'm lucky in regards to playing with other performers due to the local jam sessions we have, and, quite often we'll have a guest player who usually brings something new to the table.

As we get older, and also as the music scene changes, "live" playing in a group is not always possible, and/or profitable, so luckily there are those clever enough to use the, otherwise designed first as a "home keyboard", Arranger as a tool for professional one-man-band performing.

It keeps the player working...that's the main thing.

Ian

Gary don't get me wrong. Nothing bad with using technology. I too use it all the time. From arrangers to harmonizers. I think I had all of them from TC-Helicon. From voice prisme to voicelive 2. I meant all units which would allow me to make custom scales. And with tc-helicon it's only the top once.
And I know there are always issues with other players. They probably say the same thing about us too. But, still I wouldn't change it for anything else. To me basically I never get to close with keyboards..I mean, I never considered them as other instruments, guitars, pianos...etc...real instrumets...Actually, they are more like a girlfriend that you have fun with, but you never want to bring home to meet your mom, because you are always looking for a new model with better specs... Same with harmonizers.

Hi Ian.Good to hear you here.
Actually, Yamaha's harmonizer is not that bad, well it is worse than competition. I don't think that Yamaha will ever go together with Digitech, because Digitech is part of a different company.
I would like for Yamaha to go together with Eventide, because are the best when it comes to harmonies.

Hi Mirza,

Yes, I understand that Yamaha's is worse than the competition, but is it more than usable for my needs? Certainly.

Probably because of my synthesizer background, I'm an inveterate tweaker, both with sounds and styles, so it wasn't a big effort to spend some time with the VH2 and get it to where I was satisfied with the results...again, I'm using it very sparingly, and mostly in duet mode. I also believe my trusty old Electro-Voice RE-15 is responsible for a lot of the great results...it was often a favorite of some pretty capable singers such as Presley and Sinatra.

I've heard some of our local performers using harmonizers (Helicon, Digitech) "live", and do, what they think, is an impersonation of Manhattan Transfer or the Beach Boys, but, to a reasonably trained ear (i.e. another musician) it gets tiring real quick, due to harmonies being based on the singer's phrasing and inflections. It might work as a novelty, and only for a small portion of a show, but it doesn't work for much more than that, at least for my tastes.

And, sometimes, unless the correct settings and proper microphone are being employed, the harmony voices often sound phasey or chorusy which can make them be perceived as slightly out of tune. I often wonder if some performers record and actually listen to themselves as they incorporate the harmonizer into their tunes.

Surely by now, Yamaha is well aware of the flack they are getting about the VH2, but they stubbornly stick with it, much to the chagrin of the users...for me, rather than add an outside harmonizer unit, I just dug in and got it to work for my needs...I suppose if I was really picky, I'd get a TC-Helicon or whatever, but, in every case, the harmonies still sound phony due to the issues stated above.

Maybe Yamaha will work something out with another manufacturer (hopefully Eventide) and do the right thing, but for now, and although I'm probably in a minority, I'll continue to work with the VH2 as long as it meets my needs.

Ian

Vocal harmonizers seem to have come a long way from a few years back.

That said, I don't think they replace live voices for effect and, when doing single gigs, I use the VH2 sparingly.

Our audiences seem to enjoy it when harmonies are done(once in a while) by guest singers...the different sounds of voices and actually seeing multiple folks on stage.

I realize that most are using harmonizers as solo acts and perhaps I won't say this quite right..

But, for our audiences, I don't think a harmonizer does much more than add a bit of interest to a song. I don't know that our audiences enjoy a song that much more if a harmonizer is added?

Just a thought.

Did this acappella with my Digitech Vocalist 4, Bose L1 Compact and my iPhone picking up and recording the sound ambiently from the Bose. Just hit record on the phone and started singing through the system.

https://app.box.com/s/mvprs8ydn7wmastcxea1uy8s6e14yaa5 DANNY BOY

God Bless,
Don

What settings did you use? Sounds very good, quite clean and crisp.

Gary

Thanks Gary! My Digitech uses Presets. This is the ALT GOSPEL setting.

God Bless,
Don

Good job Mr. Canadian..I would just bring harmonies in and out just to change dynamics.
Is it posible to create custom scales on that your Digitech?? I know that Digitech LivePro can. If Digitech makes one in Vocalist Workstation housing I would get one right away..

You mean like 1/4 tone scales?

I mean any kind of scale. For example on my voiceworks when i create scale I can choose which voice will create harmony and which tone will be a harmony.

My Vocalist works very wcell with its presets which can be freely edited. I have done very little "tweaking" as I like the way it sounds. There are lots of variables I could change in the presets but for the most part I have set up my 3 Up, Alt Gosp Harm, and Eaglets 3 presets the way I like them and I go with that.

God Bless,
Don

What I meant is , can you assign any harmony to lead voice. For example, let say you sing in G scale and you don't want every harmony tone to be 3rd up, but maybe for example you sing through G Scale and your harmony is 3rd up but when you get to D E your harmony voice only sings G1? This is just example, we could use any notes in custom scale..

The best vocal tool all around comes from Antares... It are studio tools ... But they also have proven their worth in live situations... If you avox4 and the pitch correction you have it all..

http://www.antarestech.com


Most professional top singers use these tools on their international tours..

If they put Antares into hardware it would be my dream come true.And to add also mic modeling too..pfff.. I have it on my recording PC. This would be even better if Yamaha would invest in this..

Mirza, looks like Baccus' reply about the Antares software might indicate the tool to do what you want. I just like to keep it simple and although my presets may be able to be tweaked to do some of what you're thinking, I really don't have the need for all that control.

God Bless,
Don

I can already make custom scales on my voiceworks too. I was just wondering if your unit has that ability to do custom scales..Basically when you create custom scale you choose the key and than you than you have all tones and semitones to assign harmony tone that you need for the lead tone. So you can do whatever you want with it. It is much more flexible especially compared to chordal mode ..

I think thts what makes developing stuff hard. All people have different wants and needs..

There is an answer to that, dveloping modular systems, that integrate seemlessly with eachother.... And since most of it will be software based... It can be done..

And thats why i think in the end everything will be software based... Its much moremsuited for a modular flexible aproach