DNJ you are apsolutely right.That is why I will only use one or maximum 2 voices for harmony.
And Don you are spot on.
I know probably most of you will not agree with me on this, but all these arrangers that we use, from Tyros to Aydia and everything else in between. It' s basically all a big BS when it comes to playing live with real people , with real energy , real instruments on the stage. .I know sometimes we have no choice.

I feel genuinely sorry for the guys on here who've never played/sang in a 'real' group or band. There ain't nothing like the real thing, baby.

A lot of us do what we do now because of various factors. The old band broke up, venues won't pay for four- or five-pieces any more, etc.

Even if you've never enjoyed the 'real thing', I'd urge you to look around for a 'weekend warrior' type gig that are sometimes organised by local music stores. Or put it about on a local website that you're looking for musos of like interest and try to get something going. I don't think you'd regret it.

Mirza, we've all been there and done that, and have the Tee shirts and hats. With the exception of a very few individuals on this forum, we've also had to endure the idiosyncrasies and egos of individual players that sometimes make playing in a full band a real challenge. There are reasons many of us now play as OMB entertainers. Other than the payscales being the same as they were 40 years ago, which was lousy back then, we now have players that require no pay, show up on time, don't whine and cry and still sound very damned good, IMO. Additionally, there's no timing problems, no drunks in the band to contend with, well, most of the time. I remember several years ago when Hank Bowman said "My PSR-2000 still plays OK, but the damned thing has a drinking problem." Someone spilled a couple vodka and tonics in his keyboard, he opened it up, dried it with a hair dryer and it still plays today.

Now, there can be problems with the player. Today, my back in killing me, but I have to work tonight. I'm resting on a heating pad, taking pain killers, and hoping for the best. As an OMB entertainer, if something serious happens to me, the show does NOT go on, at least unless I find someone to fill in for me that I have confidence in. Not a lot of ME's around.

Now, you hear something I cannot hear with today's vocal processors - something you refer to as a robotic sound. I don't hear that anymore, maybe because my hearing is shot to Hell, or maybe it's just because I happen to be the lead singer and hear my own voice over everthing else. Then I hear others complain that arranger keyboards are just repetitive loops. Well, that's what ALL songs are - repetitive loops! Nothing more - nothing less. And I don't give a damned how anyone makes those repetitive loops, keyboard, live band, PC program, etc..., it really doesn't change the fact that all songs ARE repetitive loops of chords and notes being repeatedly played. I mean, that why we have verse 1, verse 2, verse 3, etc... The only thing that breaks this up is the chorus or bridge and some fills.

As for me, I really enjoy playing an arranger keyboard and taking advantage of all the wonderful features they ALL offer. Sure, I enjoyed playing in my 5-piece country band, and the comradery if offered. There are only two of still alive and we both perform nearly every day of the week. My lead guitar player, like me, mostly performs the NH circuit, and he's seriously considering buying a PSR-S950 and getting away from the guitar completely. Why? He said "Well, it sounds as good as my Gibson, it has a built in drum machine and bass player, and I can throw in some fiddle licks if I want."

Say what you want about those VH voices, but for most of us, they're the best thing since sliced bread.

All the best,

Gary

I keep it simple in regards to harmonizers...less is more, so to speak.

I mainly use the VH2 harmonizer in my Tyros4 as a Vocoder, but sometimes we'll use it in the studio, but sparingly. I use some of Dan Rymut's (aka big741.1) settings for the VH2 and they work really well.

In the studio vocal harmonies are generally done as overdubs, but I'd have no problem using my T4's VH2 on a "live" gig; again, less is more and being comfortable and adept with using your mic/harmonizer combination is paramount to success. I never have expected things to work without any "adjustments". I've been very successful with using a vintage Electro-Voice RE-15 for both vocals and Vocoding.

The VH2's biggest improvement over the old is that it doesn't have a glitch if you switch on the harmony while singing a note.

I'm lucky in regards to playing with other performers due to the local jam sessions we have, and, quite often we'll have a guest player who usually brings something new to the table.

As we get older, and also as the music scene changes, "live" playing in a group is not always possible, and/or profitable, so luckily there are those clever enough to use the, otherwise designed first as a "home keyboard", Arranger as a tool for professional one-man-band performing.

It keeps the player working...that's the main thing.

Ian

Gary don't get me wrong. Nothing bad with using technology. I too use it all the time. From arrangers to harmonizers. I think I had all of them from TC-Helicon. From voice prisme to voicelive 2. I meant all units which would allow me to make custom scales. And with tc-helicon it's only the top once.
And I know there are always issues with other players. They probably say the same thing about us too. But, still I wouldn't change it for anything else. To me basically I never get to close with keyboards..I mean, I never considered them as other instruments, guitars, pianos...etc...real instrumets...Actually, they are more like a girlfriend that you have fun with, but you never want to bring home to meet your mom, because you are always looking for a new model with better specs... Same with harmonizers.

Hi Ian.Good to hear you here.
Actually, Yamaha's harmonizer is not that bad, well it is worse than competition. I don't think that Yamaha will ever go together with Digitech, because Digitech is part of a different company.
I would like for Yamaha to go together with Eventide, because are the best when it comes to harmonies.

Hi Mirza,

Yes, I understand that Yamaha's is worse than the competition, but is it more than usable for my needs? Certainly.

Probably because of my synthesizer background, I'm an inveterate tweaker, both with sounds and styles, so it wasn't a big effort to spend some time with the VH2 and get it to where I was satisfied with the results...again, I'm using it very sparingly, and mostly in duet mode. I also believe my trusty old Electro-Voice RE-15 is responsible for a lot of the great results...it was often a favorite of some pretty capable singers such as Presley and Sinatra.

I've heard some of our local performers using harmonizers (Helicon, Digitech) "live", and do, what they think, is an impersonation of Manhattan Transfer or the Beach Boys, but, to a reasonably trained ear (i.e. another musician) it gets tiring real quick, due to harmonies being based on the singer's phrasing and inflections. It might work as a novelty, and only for a small portion of a show, but it doesn't work for much more than that, at least for my tastes.

And, sometimes, unless the correct settings and proper microphone are being employed, the harmony voices often sound phasey or chorusy which can make them be perceived as slightly out of tune. I often wonder if some performers record and actually listen to themselves as they incorporate the harmonizer into their tunes.

Surely by now, Yamaha is well aware of the flack they are getting about the VH2, but they stubbornly stick with it, much to the chagrin of the users...for me, rather than add an outside harmonizer unit, I just dug in and got it to work for my needs...I suppose if I was really picky, I'd get a TC-Helicon or whatever, but, in every case, the harmonies still sound phony due to the issues stated above.

Maybe Yamaha will work something out with another manufacturer (hopefully Eventide) and do the right thing, but for now, and although I'm probably in a minority, I'll continue to work with the VH2 as long as it meets my needs.

Ian

Vocal harmonizers seem to have come a long way from a few years back.

That said, I don't think they replace live voices for effect and, when doing single gigs, I use the VH2 sparingly.

Our audiences seem to enjoy it when harmonies are done(once in a while) by guest singers...the different sounds of voices and actually seeing multiple folks on stage.

I realize that most are using harmonizers as solo acts and perhaps I won't say this quite right..

But, for our audiences, I don't think a harmonizer does much more than add a bit of interest to a song. I don't know that our audiences enjoy a song that much more if a harmonizer is added?

Just a thought.

Did this acappella with my Digitech Vocalist 4, Bose L1 Compact and my iPhone picking up and recording the sound ambiently from the Bose. Just hit record on the phone and started singing through the system.

https://app.box.com/s/mvprs8ydn7wmastcxea1uy8s6e14yaa5 DANNY BOY

God Bless,
Don

What settings did you use? Sounds very good, quite clean and crisp.

Gary

Thanks Gary! My Digitech uses Presets. This is the ALT GOSPEL setting.

God Bless,
Don