....one thing they all have in common, from the lowliest Casio to the Tyros 5 or PA4x, is that, EXCEPT IN THE HANDS OF SUPERSTARS SUCH AS MARIO PARISI, they all sound like, well, arrangers. It's not just the members here (amateur or pro) but professional company demonstrators as well. Now bear in mind, I'm referring to when they are used in the most common way (style play). When used in 'synth' mode, obviously they sound like any other synth-type keyboard. But that's not why people buy arrangers and in those circumstances, pure synths or workstations would probably do a better job (although most TOTL arrangers can hold their own in this regard).

People keep posting (mostly factory) demos (I'm not sure why since anyone interested in a certain keyboard can easily look it up for themselves), and what stands out imnmediately is how "arranger-ish" it sounds. Some sound good by some measure, I suppose, but I think some of that is because a lot of people who are immersed in arranger music have forgotten what non-arranger music sounds like.

AND, what is worse, with each new model, we get (and wish for) more and more features that heighten this effect. In some ways, backing tracks (made by live musicians with real instruments) may be more realistic (sounding) even if not quite as flexible. I realize that in many venues, this matters little, but in most mainstream music venues such as jazz or rock clubs, fine restaurants, churchs, etc., it does matter.

As I've gotten older, I've lost some of my 'geek' interest in arranger keyboards and mostly concentrate on my TRUE love, the Hammond organ, but I still enjoy observing people's attitudes and approaches to this marvelous piece of technology. Although arranger players probably make up only about 1-2% of the music community, probably even less among the professional music community, it's amazing to see the loyalty and yes, camaraderie, within the community.

I still have my arrangers although I rarely turn them on except for thge BK7m which I use daily as a (excellent) drum machine to practice and/or rehearse with. Although I don't 'hate' them (as I have been accused of), I DO feel that the more advanced they get (not in terms of sound quality but automation/self-play features), the more they chip away at musical creativity AND the desire to improve technically as a musician. This is why I have said in the past that I would NEVER buy one for my child who was a serious music student. For an adult with little or no musical background but has an interest (and lots of money to spare ), I think it's the BEE's KNEES. I also think it is perfectly acceptable at less critical venues such as NH's (although for 1 hour, I would personally rather hear a (good) pianist/vocalist (even if it were a digital piano - would just sound more authentic - JMO)).

Just sharing some thoughts for the purpose of discussion, nothing more. Currently looking hard at one of those Privia pianos (560 maybe) as soon as I can figure out the difference between all the models .

chas

I said it before. To me arrangers are just necessary evil. I would always choose to play with someone else than alone.

ABSOLUTELY !!! I have a gig coming up with the sax player from our band in NY ... we get to play about 2-3 gigs a year and it's like we never stopped playing together ... same holds true when I play with the guitar player from that same band ...

I have this problem with Hammonds - they all sound so Hammodish. It really doesn't make any difference who plays them, they still sound just like a Hammond Organ. Same is true when I hear a fiddle, guitar, drums, sax, etc.... They all sound so much like the keyboard instruments, but more often than not, not nearly as good. Oh well, just thought I would toss this $hit into the fan on another cold, winter night.

Another fun day in Paradise,

Gary

May be....but one thing they will do that an arranger won't...and that is, they'll all tell you exactly where you are as a musician.

chas

True. And nothing beats the original, be it a Hammond, a trumpet etc. What would an arranger imitate if there were no original in the first place...

“May be....but one thing they will do that an arranger won't...and that is, they'll all tell you exactly where you are as a musician”.

A person who plays an arranger keyboard and a person who plays an induvial instrument are two different categories. My Dad was a concert pianist; when he played my Yamaha he sounded awful. And when I played his piano I was terrible.

The person who plays an arranger keyboard needs many talents. I might say much more knowledge and talent, but it focused in many areas.
B
ad analogy, but I’ll give it a try:
A great trumpet player is like a man who is fantastic at first base, but no other position. An arranger player must have knowledge and ability in every position.

Just had eye surgery today, I hope this makes some sense.
John C.

Come on Bruno. Usually better musicians don't play arrangers. And they don't have to. And also there are some really good arranger players, but in general most are pretty poor musicians. Sure do many things but still only mediocre at best as a musicians or players. Transpose button is arranger players best friend. And I am not saying people should not play arrangers.We all do use them. I play mine when I have to. But if we want to be honest about music, and I assume we all love music . It's not even close to the real music and it never will be. But it's easier to think the other way around. Makes us feel good about ourselves.

MIKIMIKI, that's total BS! And you know it. I know some of the best musicians in this part of the world, many of which were Peabody trained, and a significant number of them now play an arranger keyboard.

I played a guitar and sang in local bars for 15 years, everyone thought I was damned good at what I did, but when arranger keyboards came into being, I jumped on that bandwagon and never looked back.

The vast majority of the players on this, and most other forums, ALL started out playing an individual instrument. Don Mason was a great trumpet player, he was first seat. He plays an arranger keyboard now - and you're trying to tell us that he and the rest of us are lousy musicians. That's total BS!

Additionally, the vast majority of us were in bands at one time in our musical lives. I had a 5 piece country band, Tony Madalone worked with a big band in New England, Donny Pesce played accordion with a band in NYC, Boo Hargis knows more chords than God and played in New Orleans with the best of the best, but by your analysis we're ALL mediocre or lousy musicians because we opted to go with an arranger keyboard.

Now, I can almost guarantee you that if a trumpet, violin, cello, etc... had a transpose button, it would be used by those individuals. And, there was a piano with a transpose function, but it was very limited in scope. And guitar players have a transpose function with their capo and it's used by some of the top entertainers you see on stage all the time.

Arranger keyboards are instruments, no different than any other instrument. However, unlike someone that just plays a single instrument, the arranger keyboard player must learn to emulate all the other instruments, and do it accurately and efficiently. An arranger keyboard player must be someone that is good at multitasking, and have the ability to perform dozens of tasks on the fly, frequently alone in front of a large audience. More often than not, he or she, must also be a proficient vocalist and not just a good musician. He or she must also be a front-man, someone that can interact with the audiences while performing.

Now, if you sincerely believe that arranger keyboard players are hack musicians, what the Hell are you doing on an arranger keyboard player's forum?

Nuff said,

Gary

Well, I guess the juices are flowing now. Big deal on who’s the real musician, or not. Who’s got what to prove to whom? I play arrangers all the time, along with guitar, and the gigs keep coming. Must be doing something right. I’d like to see the highly-trained single instrument player entertain the group I did today, with only their solo instrument, going from 1920’s through 1970’s tunes quickly----from Dixieland, to country, jazz, big band, and early rock tunes. Arrangers (with vocals) can really make a party. Isn’t all this about having fun and making people feel good, as a result of the music? I can’t recall ever hearing a negative comment about my use of an arranger, or backing tracks, as cutting corners musically. Most, who say anything at all, are amazed at the current technology.

I can play trumpet, guitar, drums and organ but my instrument of choice is arranger, mostly because I get to keep all the money and don't have to worry about bands breaking up, players not showing or quitting, or getting drunk or high.
I don't have to work anymore, but still enjoy it and it keeps me going.
Gary will be first to tell you he isn't a great player, but he is a great entertainer and has made enough money doing what he does to retire comfortably in his large, paid-for home, take extended trips on his boat and pretty much do what he wants. Damn few solo instrumentalists can say that.
I knew where this thread was going the moment Chas started it, and I'm certain he did too!
It HAS been pretty dull around here lately, since not many of us are interested in synths and fancy software. That's why we're on the ARRANGER forum, because we love and appreciate them! I suppose the rest of you are here because there isn't much action on the dedicated instrument forums??
BTW I LOVE my new arranger! There were two singer/guitar players in to watch me tonight, after my job. They might get it too, but not until after I die or totally retire!

An arranger is designed specifically for the home hobby player (They are a more sophisticated version of the old organ easy play features) so that they can sound like a big band, country section etc. with minimal training, however some pro musicians have realised that they can use them for entertaining live and make a good living, which is fine, however they are a drop in the ocean compared to the home hobby player.

If you start out on an arranger, then you will probably (Though not always) not create your own backing (Played or programed) or be that creative with new sounds or ideas and will just play to emulate, whereas if you learn a specific instrument you will most likely become proficient with all its nuances, which will allow you to apply this knowledge to arranger playing, thus lifting you above the average arranger player.

The above is why 99% of arranger players sound exactly the same as each other, as it is the technology that is producing the sound not the player. (The players are effectively a jack of all trades, but master of none)

In the old days you could tell who was playing no matter what keyboard they played due to the fact they had developed their own style, whereas in general with arrangers you just hear the manufacture. (The more sophisticated the styles and auto sound features (To make those with limited musical skills sound great) the more anonymous they become)

One thing I have noticed in the UK & Europe over recent years is that users (Even home hobby players) are starting to shun a lot of these auto features and instead add additional manuals and pedals to their existing arrangers so that they can play more themselves. (For example talk to Yamaha dealers and (Off the record) they will tell you that the T5 has pretty dismal sales in comparison the previous models with most preferring to stick with the their T3 or 4)

Technology is good when it is the servant; however we have come to a point in TOTL arrangers where the technology has become the master (The T5 is a good example), but fortunately (Unlike in the late 80s early 90s) most users have realised this and have now started to shun it.

The main thing to consider is this: do you enjoy playing your instrument, and does it suit your style, if so, then that’s all that is required. (You can usually tell those that are happy with their instrument as they seldom change it, whereas those that aren’t change it every time a new model comes out)

Bill

Ignorant people have been thinking like this for years about the arrangers of today; some even still call them organs huh. It's not the instrument that makes the musician, it's how he/she uses it. The time they put into it and the passion from their hearts to allow the music to come out to be enjoyed by any who want to hear it.
Arranger players can be just as talented as any concert musicians in technical ability and agility. It is on arrogant people tend to "overlook" the skill and talent of the player.

The new professional arrangers have sampled sounds from the real instruments as well as natural accents added to enhance the sounds and effects or the nuances of the acoustic sounds. These "extras" make it possible not to sound like other players. Being able to play over MP3 files etc have changed the keyboard player repertoire from the old fuddy duddy style to something real and individual.

Start listening to some real players they are every where, look in night clubs, hotels, pubs, clubs etc, as the arrangers are being used in modern music to back up the singers. Who will pay for a 5 piece band any more, but you have them in an arranger player - he/she is worth 5 players pay any day!!!

Allan

Well said

"thou doth protest too much". Whenever someone is OVERLY defensive about something, ....well, you know the rest. This thread was never about who was or wasn't a good entertainer, but about two observations/opinions of mine that -

1) most arranger performances (in style mode) sound 'robotic' to me with a 'factory new-car-smell' to them. Going from a Brazilian Samba to a Country tune to a Big Band number all in the space of 10 minutes sounds completely unnatural to me in any public music venue other than probably a Nursing Home. If you think differently, fine - that's just MY opinion.

2) that playing arrangers exclusively COULD have the effect of curbing your desire to improve your playing skills. Why bother when you can just wait for next wave of technology to do it for you. Again, just my opinion.

Because someone is able to make a living in a very limited segment of the music business doesn't automatically mean that they're good at it. Self-proclaiming how good you are (something few true pro-level musicians do) may be true in YOUR mind but may not be rooted in fact. Many so-called musicians and entertainers have an exaggerated sense of their talent and abilities; most true pro's are rather modest (ie. I've never heard Rory Hoffman tell us how good he is).

So, bottom line, even though I own four arrangers and have been tinkering with them for 30 years, if I express the opinion that, despite the great advances in sound and automation technology, they STILL sound 'sort of robotic' to ME, and that I, personally, don't consider them a legitimate TRADITIONAL musical instrument, then I should not post or express an opinion on this forum. Really?

I know that there are some members here who are well liked by some, but that doesn't mean every word out of their mouth is gospel. I happen to totally agree with Mirza's post but because it doesn't represent our version of reality, he's essentially told to 'sit down and shut up'. Oh well, can't teach a old dog new tricks.....or even get them to listen to a new idea. Whaddya gonna do.

chas

Allen, I'm beginning to like you more, John C.

I consider myself a typical homeplayer..
I never play for others only for my fammily..
with the sole reason that i am never happy with my performace..
which is me, allways looking to improve things..
When i look at hardware.. I see possibilities to improve things
When i hear myself playing, I try to improve myself..
I think it comes from my work as an engineer

I love playing music, playing piano, organ, or emulating any other instrument on my keyboards.
I tried for sometime stepping away from arrangers, but they are just to much fun, when you just want to sit and play
But every day, before playing the arranger, or doing any other music related things on my keys.
Every day i start with honing my piano skills for an hour, playing my lessons and teaching myself.

In the end i make music because it makes me feel good and relax (most of the time)
Just for me myself and i..
Adding 88 weighted keys to my setup was the best thing i have ever done..
As it adds a challenge not found when playing typical lefhand/chord arranger..
Just playing with a softdrumbeat or even witouth it is fun..


If i was a performing player, i would have learned myself accordeon..
The smaller midi accordeons are perfect for on stage, danging around the guitarists and bassplayers..
Or just playing on the beach with a guitarist friend along the campfire..
Many typically dutch shanti and saylor songs come with an accordeon..

Chas my friend, if you are talking about me, nowhere did I say you shouldn't post your opinion, as if it would make any difference if I did. For some unknown reason I found myself defending arrangers again. And that's o.k. too, I think.
I find myself fighting the same problem every night--how to sound like a small combo that is somewhat believable and at the same time try to NOT sound too much the same on every song. Anybody can take a midi file or MP3 or even a dedicated style and play along with it a little, and sound pretty much like the original recording. The challenge is taking an arranger and doing your own interpretation, while staying somewhat true to the original recording. Best way I've found is to keep the style fairly simple and try to skillfully emulate lead instruments for fills and solos. The primary reasons for upgrading to current gear is the ease in operation for doing this and improvements in sounds.
There will always be two schools of thought represented here. There are those of us who embrace the idea and capabilities of arrangers, and those of us who truly believe they are toys for amateurs to enjoy. Neither is really wrong; it depends on what you do with the arranger. I'd rather listen to an expert arranger artist than a bad band. In reality there are few expert arranger artists and lots of really bad bands. The really good bands are finding it hard to find venues for which they are paid according to their talents. Some few make the big time; most are weekend warriors and/or jam-session players who are playing because they love to play. No right or wrong here, and it is pretty sad that lots of great musicians are mostly unrecognized and unrewarded. I'm rambling again, but I'm really old and that happens to us sometimes.

Don, based on your last post, I wouldn't say you were old, I would say you were wise. I agree with 99% of everything you said (the 1% being that I was talking about you ). I not only respect you as a very good musician but also as a consummate 'pro' who is also capable of writing an intelligent, insightful, post without immediately going into 'attack mode'. There is a strong tendency here to immediately go to Def-Con 1 whenever anything is posted that is deemed to be even slightly negative to anything 'Arranger'. Usually, the meaning and intent of the post is largely ignored and it's immediately taken in a different direction, usually one that will provide plenty of 'red meat' for the true believers. It is always accompanied by it's own facts and it's own reality. But hey, that's what fandom is all about, right? Abacus keeps pointing out that Arrangers are designed for and marketed to, home players (even if a handful of full-time pro's use them in certain specialized venues), but the 'faithful few' can't even acknowledge that. Look, if I belonged to a forum on RC model planes and said that I didn't think that flying them completely emulated the experience of flying a real plane, that doesn't mean that I hate RC model planes. It also doesn't mean that real pilots can't or shouldn't fly them. Ok, now I'm starting to ramble, but then I'm old too.

Hey Don, no harm, no foul.

chas

For me, arrangers are a great tool for entertaining. With my playing skills, I never planned on doing Carnigie Hall....just some halls with seniors in it.

I get the impression that some folks imply that if you give up arrangers in favor of 'real pianos', well then Carnigie Hall(or whatever venue of status) is the next logical step.

In reality, I sometimes think this forum would be better served if it was called a forum for keyboard/piano entertainers.

It looks like people are not reading or don't understand what I am trying to say. I already said there are many, many good arranger players. And there are bad once too. But that is not the point here I think it's not what Chas who started this great post meant also. It is what arrangers represent. And I am not being ignorant at all. Maybe selling ourselves cheap to greedy hotels and restaurant owners because they "CAN'T" afford at least couple more musicians so that can look like something more than what it is. Also I am not afraid to say what I think , whether it is about music or politics or religion.
Bachus mentioned that he is a home player. There is nothing wrong with that. I can see by his post that he has a lot of knowledge in keyboards and technology. And it doesn't really mean that if someone is a professional musician that he is also better than some home player. We've seen or heard that here also.

I am against what arrangers represent.An average arranger player will spend time to learn all 2 fingers chords combinations instead of using the once that he or she already knows. And that is the mentality of an arranger player. So are we cheating and faking music with our arrangers?? I think 90% we are.

And Gary before calling something BS please read first and try to understand what was said. Don't assume.

MikiMiki,

I think I understand what you are saying. But I'm also guessing you may be missing the point of this arranger forum.

I'm originally a string and brass player....college trained. Did concerts and what have you in some 'educated' venues. And now, I'm attempting to learn piano with a weighted keyboard.

Arrangers, for me, are a different animal. They are about entertaining...not about learning 'Fur Eliese' (sorry missing the umlaut on Fur) on the piano. I bought a weighted piano to learn Fur Eliese.

Let's enjoy arrangers for what they are...extremely versatile keyboards that work great in entertainment venues.

I did read what you said "Come on Bruno. Usually better musicians don't play arrangers. And they don't have to. And also there are some really good arranger players, but in general most are pretty poor musicians. Sure do many things but still only mediocre at best as a musicians or players."

That's damned-well insulting, both to me, and to the many excellent musicians and entertainers on this forum.

Gary

Everyone knows that I have a love-hate relationship with arrangers.

Yes, I use them when they are appropriate for the job (about 25% of the time).

No, they are not the instruments of choice, for me.


Thing is, Jazz players play off of each other. When you reach that wonderful state where you're sharing unspoken ideas, the result can often be mind-blowing.

The section backs the soloist and makes small but "mighty" adjustments in response to the ideas coming from the soloist.

As a guitar player, I love to switch from playing section inspired lead to a comping mode which reflects what's being played by others.


That can't happen with an arranger. So, I don't use an arranger on those kinds of jobs.

Best use for me is left handed bass, using the internal drums and programmed drum breaks activated by a pedal.

One rule I have is NEVER use a sequence by choice. That's MY RULE, and I've never done it...never will. Also, I think a laptop on stage looks as tacky as a tip jar, and will NEVER use either. Also, I NEVER play nursing homes, but that's a different story....different topic altogether.

But that's just me. What's important is to develop your plan, develop the necessary skills and JUST DO IT!

Believe me, a 6 figure income is way easier than some think if the approach, dedication and abilities are there.


Russ

mirza ...It is wrong to paint a whole group of people with your broad brush insult ... that is as bad as me saying all jazz musicians are drug addicts !!!
MANY good musicians have turned to arrangers due to NEED - not a need to 'hide behind' an arranger keyboard, but a need to continue working as a full time musician, BECAUSE OF the fact that venues will not pay for for bands or combos anymore ...when that happened I took the position that if ONE musician was going to be paid, it might as well be me ...

Tony, that's certainly the right approach.


R.

Thanks Russ ... it has worked for me ...

Tony, Gary or whoever thought I was insulting I do apologize . But there is a saying," If we all think alike, than nobody is thinking

We all saw when Yamaha has those workshops when new keyboard comes out so they can sell them. We saw who comes on those. Those are majority of arranger players. And that is how these major companies present arrangers to us. That is the picture. And that is why we loose major features on Tyros. Because of majority of players don't know anything about editing or making new styles, or even rearranging the ones on the keyboard itself. They are not made for pro players, well all except Korg now. That is why we get crapy keys on them, although even much cheaper synths have much better keys.

If this is insulting, then let me rephrase it like this. Arrangers the best thing ever. They probably came directly from god.
We should praise them and they will all go to keyboard heaven. Hammonds, old Dx and analog stuff will all burn in hell anyway

Yep, 'cause they're only played by Atheists .

chas

...and Democrats .

chas

Chas, we all have opinions, and that's fine, but if you are passionate about something you are going to stand up for it not be defensive of it, like you are of your opinion.

To answer your comments,
1) they can sound robotic, if you just turn them on and do nothing more than change chord using a single finger - boring I agree you. You are able to do so much more, with variations, pauses, inversions, MP3's etc not to mention changing the style mid song, live music should be ALIVE not played robotic-ally, couldn't agree more.
2)It COULD, yes, or it COULD inspire you, it is just a mental state. Are you a glass half full or a glass half empty person?
I have never heard a great musician called themselves good at all. They are still trying to better themselves, and improve; but kicking themselves over their last stuff ups, even if no one heard them.
Well, I am glad you stuck with it for so long, but may be you need some lessons or something. NOT, how to play music, you know how, but how to play like a guitarist or how to play like a flutist or violinist etc. To incorporate that into your music to help others hear the other instruments NOT just styles.

I don't know what other instruments you play, I play classical piano started at age 10, @ 17 started banjo, @ 28 started mandolin and 5 string electric bass. My first arranger was a Yamaha DSR1000 or something. This does NOT make me an expert nor do I have an EGO, I am constantly learning and growing, and still making mistakes; blame my classical piano teacher, who kept at me to "get it right".

My voice on this honored forum is worth very little to anyone. I have not the credentials like some here, nor the years of input that some have helped other here, just MY opinion.

At the end of the day CHAS, my thoughts are please don't give up, but get out more and find a way to break through the brick wall you seem to have about your playing or others playing arranger KB's; Be the one that shows them how to really play these instruments of awesomeness that they can be if you/we choose.
Allan

*

This thread goes off in so many directions, I thought I would not quote the many good points that were made and just add my own two cents.

My brief history: 50 years on accordion, 35 years playing arranger keyboards, 30 years playing piano, 20 years disc jockey and Karaoke artist.

I loved the accordion and still do. It's a creative instrument that allows you to emotionalize. When I switched to arranger boards, I thought it was the cat's meow at the time. Then the piano came into the picture and I really enjoyed the versatility of this magnificent instrument. Next was disc jockey time where I was working sometimes 5-6 days a week. Point being for those 4 hours on every gig, I was subconsciously listening to all kinds of music and the incredible arrangements of the songs. That gave me another whole perspective on music production. Leading up to, I'm back to playing the piano instead of my PA3x. Why? As someone already mentioned......an arranger keyboard is too robotic. And to make it NOT "too robotic" is not worth the time and energy I'd have to put into it. On the piano, I can express myself in any way I want. I don't have to concern myself with "what button for what variation....what style" 'cause I can make my own variation and styles. Same with "fills," base lines, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I still love arrangers, but my preference is now a basic piano. No gadgets, frills, bells & whistles to distract me. All my concentration can now go into creativity instead of dealing with the rigidity of working all those tabs and sliders and touch screens.

Now for my opinion on arranger players. The last good one I saw that I considered a genuine one-man-band was somewhere back in the 70's. Haven't seen one since that I like (well, I like to hear Don M play). All you hear now are vocalists who play chords behind themselves. Never approach playing a melody probably because they don't know how to. The rest are just doing the job....nothing but "robotic playing." Every song sounds the same. Very few drum breaks, no improvising on any of the 10,000 instruments in most modern arrangers, no thinking out arrangements, no modulation wheel or pitch wheel used, etc. When I was playing one of my favorite things to do was play a trombone patch melody in my left hand overriding or working against a trumpet patch melody line in my right hand in Dixieland tunes and still keeping the proper chording.

As for the giants like Marco Parisi, and the various company demonstrators.....I see them as good musicians but not great. They're good at what they do, but it all sounds the same because they all found their niche in the world of music...one set style of playing. You'll never hear Marco play a great Strauss waltz, or the Beer Barrel polka...it just ain't gonna happen. All these "greats" play "great" because they play ONE style all the time.

Now look at Billy Joel's compositions, or Elton John or the Beatles. Those are examples of musician's musicians. Billy Joel....that beautiful love song "Just the way you are" to a rocker like "My Life" to a Latin beat (Don't Ask Me Why)....complete versatility. The same with Elton John.....he goes from one style to another. The Beatles....450 songs and everyone different in structure (Yesterday, Ob-la-di, Ob-la-da, Paperback Rider).

Of all the arranger demos I've listened to in the last few years, nothing really reached out and touched me. The players were fine in many of them, but to me, a real musician can go comfortably from one genre to another and make every one sound like the real thing.

Arrangers are great, great instruments if you milk them for all they're worth. Unfortunately, in today's "instant gratification" world, players just shoot for their 15 minutes of fame on Youtube and couldn't care less about the image they're giving of an arranger keyboard. And that is why they sound "robotic" and unappealing in many ways. Nobody actually plays them like they're meant to be played.

Keep in mind that I grew up in a different era of arrangers. It was a time when more players pressed more buttons, stepped on more pedals and did their best to NOT sound "robotic!"

Mark

This thread makes no sense to me on an arranger keyboard forum. If you simply don't like arranger keyboard backing then please don't post. It is just trolling. Arranger backing to provide backing for vocal performance or right hand solo work can't be beat in a one man band. If you have a problem with that post it somewhere other than here or I will ensure that is your only choice. I don't want to read why someone doesn't like arrangers on this forum. It is simply negativity to try to feed your own musical ego. I guess it must need feeding. Stop !!!!! We don't care. Only you do. If you disagree you really need to stop and really examine your motivation to intentionally cause disruption.

My first job with an Arranger Keyboard

After singing and playing guitar professionally I bought my first arranger keyboard, a Yamaha. I had been using a Rhythm Ace, (an electronic drummer) for backing.

My keyboard skills were “0” so I had to become inventive. I purchased a Midi attachment for my guitar; wired it inti the Yamaha and the results were fantastic. I was doing a solo with a full band --- the chords on my guitar triggered the left hand of the keyboard. What a long way from using an electronic drummer.
My next step was to apply the knowledge I had from guitar to
the keyboard. Started with scales and left hand chord progressions.in all keys. After two years the guitar stayed at home.

For 25 years I have had one fantastic time with Arranger Keyboards and enjoyed every bit of it.

John C.
PS, I have an acoustic piano in my home which never gets played.

Arranger keyboards are invaluable to solo performers. And being able to trigger it from your guitar is awesome. So much better than just playing along with a drum machine.

Lyrics from Sonny and Cher's " And the Beat Goes On"

And the beat goes on, the beat goes on
Drums(arrangers) keep pounding a rhythm to the brain
La de da de de, la de da de da

And the beat goes on, yes, the beat goes on
And the beat goes on, and the beat goes on
The beat goes on and the beat goes on
The beat goes



Read more: Sonny & Cher - Beat Goes On Lyrics | MetroLyrics

Nailed it, Nigel.

Nailed it, StephenM52!

I am sure that by now people know where I stand on playing solo instruments, especially in a band, vs. playing an arranger KB ... I LOVED my 26 years gigging with the same 4 guys and would love to be doing it now - but let's face facts - right now the youngest guy in that band - me - is less than 3 months away from 75 years of age (did I really say that??? ) ... we would not be able to compete with the 'young bloods' of today the majority of whom are very talented musicians and vocalists ... so in order to keep my ego happy and keep playing I turned to AKBs and I LOVE it ... Is it a 'short cut' to entertaining; is it less demanding then playing a solo instrument; perhaps, but not necessarily so if the player continues to hone his or her skills as MANY on this board do ...
That being said, the AK 'bashing' on this forum does get tiresome, BUT I feel that this board is a microcosm of the world we live in - many people with many different viewpoints - and I don't feel they should be inhibited from speaking their mind AS LONG AS it does not get personal and insulting ... but when someone says or implies that all arranger players are incompetent musicians, whether the writer realizes it or not, that IS going to be taken as a personal insult ...
So I say, let the 'bashers' continue to bash, and I and many others on this board will continue in our efforts to improve our performances and be applauded, whether the audience is made up of 70 - 100+ somethings in NH and AL venues, or 30 -70 somethings in upscale restaurants, or wherever ...
Make beautiful music however you do it, and peace, out ...

Okay, I said arrangers played in style mode sounded somewhat 'robotic' to me. Perhaps what I should have added was "but they don't HAVE to". For instance, there are some players right here on this board that DON'T sound robotic - I'll even take a risk and name names - Don Mason. I think the reason is because of his very tasteful and authentic sounding guitar (and piano) embellishments. He also does a great job of choosing the right style for the tune (which comes down to taste, 'hearing', and musicality). But I think the main contributor to the non-robotic feel is still the embellishments. Good emulations, however, require good playing technique (only achieved through practice) and, let's face it, ALL arranger players aren't willing to 'put in the work' or, in some cases, just don't have the talent. They may sound 'good' but not necessarily 'professional' because, as someone else pointed out, in one case the arranger is doing all the 'heavy lifting' and in the other, it's the player.

So maybe I should have titled the post "What techniques can we employ to make our arranger performances more authentic sounding (ie. less robotic)". NOTE: At least a couple of people also thought they sounded somewhat robotic (repetitive, boring, predictable). DonM talked about 'slimming down' the factory style as one way to make YOUR playing more prominent, and I'm sure there are many other techniques. Look, people don't really want to sound like an arranger, they want to sound like a LIVE BAND, so why not look at (and learn from) the techniques of those who are able to pull it off.

Sorry if I stirred up a hornets nest, but I feel almost any topic can have value if approached in an amicable manner and with ADDED KNOWLEDGE as the goal. Hey, everybody has opinions, and they aren't always going to be the same. JMO.

chas

I can't believe that we are doing this same tired dance yet again ???

Nigel got it right, Thanks ! don't like Arrangers, go over to Piano World.
I'm not playing an Arranger as my first choice but as a necessity if I want to keep working "live" . I can play Piano pretty well but can you find work doing it ? Very little, and the guys going for the few openings are sometimes scary good, out of my league. So I use an Arranger to entertain the crowds. I spend countless hours editing it to sound more like a live band and yes I sing over it. If you don't sing = you don't work period.
All the pretty melodies and sounds won't get you any more jobs. Singing and entertaining is where its at. And oh yea, you better play a lot of dance music

1200 views... 42 posts... Nuff said

Ditto

Thank you Chas! I think we are mostly on the same page. It's useful to compare techniques, tricks, ideas to make us better.
One thing I lot of people don't remember is that some of us are not piano players and never were. It's a totally different animal. You can sort of play piano on an arranger, but you can't very well make a piano sound like a band, or combo or orchestra or anything besides a piano. There is certainly a place for each, but they never will be the same. A BIG difference is that you can "fake it" with an arranger and do pretty well. There is no faking a piano; you can either play it or you can't. Arrangers, including Clavinova-types, have replaced home organs, but they are surely declining as home entertainment options develop so quickly. Hard to convince kids to play music when they have so many amazing gadgets to explore. Want to hear a song? Just pull up YouTube or ITunes and you've got it. Takes years to learn to do it yourself, even half as well.
I think if I had devoted the past 30 years to playing piano, or guitar, I would be pretty good at it, but I chose to embrace the technology that arrangers offer. It all started with organs as they began to add drums and rhythms. They were pretty bad, but I didn't know it at the time!
I loved playing in bands and the interaction with other musicians. I found myself fronting a very successful band every weekend, big frog in a little puddle type of situation. Then I realized I was making twice as much money playing dinner music at a restaurant by myself during the week. At that time I thought it might be time to pursue a dream to be a full-time musician, and over the ensuing 40 years managed to pull it off. I see far better musicians, far better singers, etc., that couldn't do that, or didn't want to badly enough. For me the key has been to continue to embrace new technology and do what it takes to stay relevant. Arrangers have become the key to that for me. Assuming one does not make the big time, it's really hard to make a living if you share the proceeds with band members. Now that is sad, but true.
I'm at the point where my arranger does everything I want it to do, and in fact it will do WAY more than I'll ever ask it to do.
The sad part is that, at least in the U.S.A., arrangers are barely relevant to today's music scene. I'm about the only one in this whole area who tries to do it in front of people. Even ten years ago there were a dozen or more around here using arrangers as one or two man "bands". They got old and died, or became karaoke stars, playing with "tracks", MP3s... . This is not Dallas but there are more than a half million people living in the area. Maybe two of them have any inkling of what I'm doing. Still the audience seems to enjoy it and that's what counts, and what keeps me going.
Allman Brothers Rambling Man, again.

Great post Don

I gave a "nailed it" to Nigel and Stephenm52 a few posts back. And now another one goes to DonM. Very well put, Mr. Mason.

One thing forum members have in common is, a great love for music. We all, more or less are in the same age group 60 plus. Most of us have played in bands and groups up to a few years ago. Suddenly or so it seems the scene changed and those band days had passed and we see this incredible "animal" called an ARRANGER !. Wow! a complete band in one keyboard and it "does the business. It provides a complete band sound and we are back in business as musicians more or less, not just earning money but getting out to play like the old days bright lights and all and still eyeing up the ladies. But lets not fool ourselves, the arranger keyboard no matter how good the player, will never replace a live band with real musicians. It does however have some positives, we can add 10 or more years to our playing days and that cant be a bad thing. Just my view on situation.

Good post, lots of truth in there, especially as it relates to our motives for continuing to play at our 'advanced' age (bright lights, the ladies, reliving the old days). Whenever there is a conversation (or attempted conversation) about the MUSICAL pluses and minuses of arrangers, the conversation immediately turns into a conversation about the BUSINESS/ECONOMIC advantages of being a OMB (which can best be done with an arranger). That may be, but has little to do with the original conversation. Very frustrating, to say the least.

chas

chas, you know I highly respect your musicality but your original post was negative without any of the slightly more positive references you are deciding to post now. If you really want to discuss negative aspects please do it in a way that doesn't sound like ALL aspects are negative or else it just seems like trolling. I think we all agree with what you ended up saying, just wish you had started it this way.