Okay, I said arrangers played in style mode sounded somewhat 'robotic' to me. Perhaps what I should have added was "but they don't HAVE to". For instance, there are some players right here on this board that DON'T sound robotic - I'll even take a risk and name names - Don Mason. I think the reason is because of his very tasteful and authentic sounding guitar (and piano) embellishments. He also does a great job of choosing the right style for the tune (which comes down to taste, 'hearing', and musicality). But I think the main contributor to the non-robotic feel is still the embellishments. Good emulations, however, require good playing technique (only achieved through practice) and, let's face it, ALL arranger players aren't willing to 'put in the work' or, in some cases, just don't have the talent. They may sound 'good' but not necessarily 'professional' because, as someone else pointed out, in one case the arranger is doing all the 'heavy lifting' and in the other, it's the player.

So maybe I should have titled the post "What techniques can we employ to make our arranger performances more authentic sounding (ie. less robotic)". NOTE: At least a couple of people also thought they sounded somewhat robotic (repetitive, boring, predictable). DonM talked about 'slimming down' the factory style as one way to make YOUR playing more prominent, and I'm sure there are many other techniques. Look, people don't really want to sound like an arranger, they want to sound like a LIVE BAND, so why not look at (and learn from) the techniques of those who are able to pull it off.

Sorry if I stirred up a hornets nest, but I feel almost any topic can have value if approached in an amicable manner and with ADDED KNOWLEDGE as the goal. Hey, everybody has opinions, and they aren't always going to be the same. JMO.

chas

I can't believe that we are doing this same tired dance yet again ???

Nigel got it right, Thanks ! don't like Arrangers, go over to Piano World.
I'm not playing an Arranger as my first choice but as a necessity if I want to keep working "live" . I can play Piano pretty well but can you find work doing it ? Very little, and the guys going for the few openings are sometimes scary good, out of my league. So I use an Arranger to entertain the crowds. I spend countless hours editing it to sound more like a live band and yes I sing over it. If you don't sing = you don't work period.
All the pretty melodies and sounds won't get you any more jobs. Singing and entertaining is where its at. And oh yea, you better play a lot of dance music

1200 views... 42 posts... Nuff said

Ditto

Thank you Chas! I think we are mostly on the same page. It's useful to compare techniques, tricks, ideas to make us better.
One thing I lot of people don't remember is that some of us are not piano players and never were. It's a totally different animal. You can sort of play piano on an arranger, but you can't very well make a piano sound like a band, or combo or orchestra or anything besides a piano. There is certainly a place for each, but they never will be the same. A BIG difference is that you can "fake it" with an arranger and do pretty well. There is no faking a piano; you can either play it or you can't. Arrangers, including Clavinova-types, have replaced home organs, but they are surely declining as home entertainment options develop so quickly. Hard to convince kids to play music when they have so many amazing gadgets to explore. Want to hear a song? Just pull up YouTube or ITunes and you've got it. Takes years to learn to do it yourself, even half as well.
I think if I had devoted the past 30 years to playing piano, or guitar, I would be pretty good at it, but I chose to embrace the technology that arrangers offer. It all started with organs as they began to add drums and rhythms. They were pretty bad, but I didn't know it at the time!
I loved playing in bands and the interaction with other musicians. I found myself fronting a very successful band every weekend, big frog in a little puddle type of situation. Then I realized I was making twice as much money playing dinner music at a restaurant by myself during the week. At that time I thought it might be time to pursue a dream to be a full-time musician, and over the ensuing 40 years managed to pull it off. I see far better musicians, far better singers, etc., that couldn't do that, or didn't want to badly enough. For me the key has been to continue to embrace new technology and do what it takes to stay relevant. Arrangers have become the key to that for me. Assuming one does not make the big time, it's really hard to make a living if you share the proceeds with band members. Now that is sad, but true.
I'm at the point where my arranger does everything I want it to do, and in fact it will do WAY more than I'll ever ask it to do.
The sad part is that, at least in the U.S.A., arrangers are barely relevant to today's music scene. I'm about the only one in this whole area who tries to do it in front of people. Even ten years ago there were a dozen or more around here using arrangers as one or two man "bands". They got old and died, or became karaoke stars, playing with "tracks", MP3s... . This is not Dallas but there are more than a half million people living in the area. Maybe two of them have any inkling of what I'm doing. Still the audience seems to enjoy it and that's what counts, and what keeps me going.
Allman Brothers Rambling Man, again.

Great post Don

I gave a "nailed it" to Nigel and Stephenm52 a few posts back. And now another one goes to DonM. Very well put, Mr. Mason.

One thing forum members have in common is, a great love for music. We all, more or less are in the same age group 60 plus. Most of us have played in bands and groups up to a few years ago. Suddenly or so it seems the scene changed and those band days had passed and we see this incredible "animal" called an ARRANGER !. Wow! a complete band in one keyboard and it "does the business. It provides a complete band sound and we are back in business as musicians more or less, not just earning money but getting out to play like the old days bright lights and all and still eyeing up the ladies. But lets not fool ourselves, the arranger keyboard no matter how good the player, will never replace a live band with real musicians. It does however have some positives, we can add 10 or more years to our playing days and that cant be a bad thing. Just my view on situation.

Good post, lots of truth in there, especially as it relates to our motives for continuing to play at our 'advanced' age (bright lights, the ladies, reliving the old days). Whenever there is a conversation (or attempted conversation) about the MUSICAL pluses and minuses of arrangers, the conversation immediately turns into a conversation about the BUSINESS/ECONOMIC advantages of being a OMB (which can best be done with an arranger). That may be, but has little to do with the original conversation. Very frustrating, to say the least.

chas

chas, you know I highly respect your musicality but your original post was negative without any of the slightly more positive references you are deciding to post now. If you really want to discuss negative aspects please do it in a way that doesn't sound like ALL aspects are negative or else it just seems like trolling. I think we all agree with what you ended up saying, just wish you had started it this way.